153 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 11 February 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Because 12-man CW is a team-mode game. Large numbers of PUGs are not a team, they are a mob.

If you split the 12-man CW queue, this will simply result in units being in one queue on a planet and PUGs on another- which in many cases would lead to no match at all.

The proper solution is already in the pipeline- Paul is working on 4v4 modes to add to CW,and this will give PUGs somewhere to play free of the 12-man structure that allows (indeed, it couldn't not if it tried) organized groups to pulp PUG-mobs left and right. Once it's in, we'll have CW 4v4 and CW 12v12, much as we have solo and group pubbie queues.

That will go a LONG way towards un-stressing soloers sick of getting into a mob and wondering why "Old Macdonald" keeps playing instead of the usual music.

There is just one problem. What's to stop a tough 4-man premade team from obliterating a PUG 4-man? Heck, what's to stop 1 player in that tough 4-man premade team from single-handedly obliterating an entire PUG 4-man?

It's back to the drawing board I guess ...

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

so here we go.. some hypothetical arguments but basically you want players to play in your way..don't let them have option..they either will enjoy it in same way like you or don't have access to new content at all... I applaud you my friend..you are really ignorant and you are just afraid there is not enough same minded players like you..

You do know that the option is to play in CW or to not play in CW. That IS an option. It just isn't the one you want.

[wanderer]

Quote

What's to stop a tough 4-man premade team from obliterating a PUG 4-man?

Nothing, but your odds of surviving four people shooting at you beat 12, every time. As team sizes increased, pubstomping got worse when we went from 8v8 to 12v12. I'm betting the reverse applies going from 12v12 to 4v4. Plus, even PUGs tend to become more cohesive given fewer variables simply because the right choice is part of a smaller number of options.

Teamwork becomes less OP as team sizes shrink. The better team will still win, but welcome to reality kids.

[WarHippy]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

so here we go.. some hypothetical arguments but basically you want players to play in your way..don't let them have option..they either will enjoy it in same way like you or don't have access to new content at all... I applaud you my friend..you are really ignorant and you are just afraid there is not enough same minded players like you..

Yes, here we go... You lack a real argument and you go for the low hanging fruit of personal attacks instead. Bravo!

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

yes..and people are stupid..they don't see that new content is rolling in which is ..for no good reason...in hardcore mode only...how it would hurt CW if casuals would have access to new content in non-hardcore mode?

I tell you how..it would just show how many people really don't care about CW and just want play new content..and this is caused by flawed CW..

You mean that we players who have been waiting for the real game to finally emerge after three years? I have waited very patiently for this "Hard Mode" to get here. Lets see Open Que has 3 scenarios, and 17ish maps.

CW has 3 Maps and 2 scenarios. The dedicated players who have been here since CB and the very beginning have been given a small taste. A very small taste. Your opinion is kinda silly if you actually think about it.

[mania3c]

WarHippy, on 11 February 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yes, here we go... You lack a real argument and you go for the low hanging fruit of personal attacks instead. Bravo!

don't be ***** and learn to read ..I see you have hard times with it..

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

You mean that we players who have been waiting for the real game to finally emerge after three years? I have waited very patiently for this "Hard Mode" to get here. Lets see Open Que has 3 scenarios, and 17ish maps.

CW has 3 Maps and 2 scenarios. The dedicated players who have been here since CB and the very beginning have been given a small taste. A very small taste. Your opinion is kinda silly if you actually think about it.

noone wants take away your haradcore mode..keep it if you want..I have been in CB too for your information but what is silly about my opinion? that I think new content..especially in PGI situation..where we can't wait any new content for standard modes for VEEEERY long time..should be available outside the CW..

look..people are asking for more casual friendly experience in CW...you disagree..so what about CW content outside the CW, so casuals wont affect CW at all?? you disagree..you, buddy, are silly here..

Edited by mania3c, 11 February 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[Dawnstealer]

mania3c, on 10 February 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Yea..I heard that manytimes..yet..when someone asked for some evidence..it never happens ..

Go play 10 pugs game today..and post your end-screens..

VOIP will do pretty much nothing... communication is just one of the many factors, why pugs don't stand a chance against organized premades..and they never will..not matter how many tools you will throw on them.. I see some people like Mystere have hard times to grasp even single concepts how these things works ..but anyway..as long as PGI will be throwing all players into same pool without any regulations, MWO is pretty much dead for most players...

Look - I get you don't have success doing this, but I almost exclusively PUG drop. I am in a unit, but they play at different times than I do (I'm west coast, they're mostly on when I'm at work and I'm mostly playing after they've headed for bed).

I'm not trying to troll you here - I'm telling you what's worked for me. Before we even drop, I start laying down what the plan is. If someone is adamant about a different plan of action (or if they have a few others in comms), I bow to their plan: it's better to move as a group in a bad plan, than have twelve people all doing their own brilliant plan.

I type near constantly while fighting. "Enemy push on the left" "Lone TBR to the right" "_____ - pull back: you're on your own" and so on, and so on.

That's what works. And does it always work? Of course not: people are playing a game here - most are going to do what's fun for them. For some of them, that's working as a team. For others, like myself, I want to win the match. If that means I have to sacrifice my own ideas for the win, I'll do it.

But if you genuinely aren't having luck pugging, find a group and drop with them. Problem solved. It's better than coming on the interwebs and accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you as lying.

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

don't be ***** and learn to read ..I see you have hard times with it..


noone wants take away your haradcore mode..keep it if you want..I have been in CB too for your information but what is silly about my opinion? that I think new content..especially in PGI situation..where we can't wait any new content for standard modes for VEEEERY long time..should be available outside the CW..

look..people are asking for more casual friendly experience in CW...you disagree..so what about CW content outside the CW, so casuals wont affect CW at all?? you disagree..you, buddy, are silly here..

We have lots of casual friendly experience in Open Que. Or do we? Cause I keep reading about Elo Hell, and Complaint after complaint on how this that or the other thing in the game sucks for PUGs. As a mostly PUG I disagree with that claim. What I read a lot of is, "I'm not as good as I thought I was, and I want to be better. Well, I know just how average I am. I know just how often I should win or have an easy match. And to date, I'm still just a head of the curve I set for me. I like that CW has been a boogieman for me, I want to do better there. I don't want it made easier!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 February 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

You mean that we players who have been waiting for the real game to finally emerge after three years? I have waited very patiently for this "Hard Mode" to get here. Lets see Open Que has 3 scenarios, and 17ish maps.

CW has 3 Maps and 2 scenarios. The dedicated players who have been here since CB and the very beginning have been given a small taste. A very small taste. Your opinion is kinda silly if you actually think about it.

Highlighted and enlarged for greater emphasis.

[mania3c]

Dawnstealer okey..people are not lying and population inside CW is not nose diving at all.. there are healthy numbers of players, no imbalances, majority if not all pugs vs premades groups are not one sided at all.. so everything is fine..people just have to learn to play..

I see buddy, you are not trolling me..but people just don't understand..it really doesn't matter what your experience is..what joseph experience is and how some poor pugger became good in game by joining the unit so everyone can do it.

CW is in bad shape..population wise..it's bleeding and wont stop unless something will change..no..VOIP is not it..4v4 modes wont help either..I want CW be good..I really want..I want these hardcore groups to be struggling in epic fights and I would love to see these elite players to become celebrities among casuals. That would be awesome..but again..if nothing will change, CW development will no longer be profitable ..PGI will need to refocus their resources into standard mode again..or in worse case scenario, just put MWO into life-support and just let it die slowly..

[WarHippy]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

don't be ***** and learn to read ..I see you have hard times with it..

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

noone wants take away your haradcore mode..keep it if you want..I have been in CB too for your information but what is silly about my opinion? that I think new content..especially in PGI situation..where we can't wait any new content for standard modes for VEEEERY long time..should be available outside the CW..

look..people are asking for more casual friendly experience in CW...you disagree..so what about CW content outside the CW, so casuals wont affect CW at all?? you disagree..you, buddy, are silly here..

Your opinion in this case is silly because you essentially want all of the rewards and content of CW without having to work for it or actually participate in it. It dilutes and tarnishes what CW is supposed to represent for the community that has been waiting so long for it. I understand you just want to play the CW maps and modes in the normal queue, but are you willing to accept no LP, no impact on actual CW, and are you sure that everyone is going to be ok with that?

[mania3c]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

We have lots of casual friendly experience in Open Que. Or do we? Cause I keep reading about Elo Hell, and Complaint after complaint on how this that or the other thing in the game sucks for PUGs. As a mostly PUG I disagree with that claim. What I read a lot of is, "I'm not as good as I thought I was, and I want to be better. Well, I know just how average I am. I know just how often I should win or have an easy match. And to date, I'm still just a head of the curve I set for me. I like that CW has been a boogieman for me, I want to do better there. I don't want it made easier!

you still didn't answer why putting CW maps and modes into quick play would be bad..but I guess this is typical for current system defenders ..

WarHippy, on 11 February 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

Your opinion in this case is silly because you essentially want all of the rewards and content of CW without having to work for it or actually participate in it. It dilutes and tarnishes what CW is supposed to represent for the community that has been waiting so long for it. I understand you just want to play the CW maps and modes in the normal queue, but are you willing to accept no LP, no impact on actual CW, and are you sure that everyone is going to be ok with that?

Do I? really...work on your reading skill more I guess..

but seriously, no impact on CW and planets..exactly ..this is quick play so it's not needed..for LP..it's not vital part but it's nice..these things just work in games..players, strangely enough, love griding..while I don't and would hardly care about LP anyway, I see benefits to allow players farm these points outside the CW...maybe even with penalties..it's something what keeps players playing..especially if it's tiered like current LP system is..it's "Level UP" feel which many people enjoy..

Edited by mania3c, 11 February 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Roadbeer]

So, I have a question.

If over the last 3 years, absolutely nothing has changed in the regards to the "Abuse of PUGs", despite Elo, Matchmaker, removal of groups over 4, etc., etc. In both the Public and CW queues

Why do people still insist on being PUGs?

[Dawnstealer]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Dawnstealer okey..people are not lying and population inside CW is not nose diving at all.. there are healthy numbers of players, no imbalances, majority if not all pugs vs premades groups are not one sided at all.. so everything is fine..people just have to learn to play..

I see buddy, you are not trolling me..but people just don't understand..it really doesn't matter what your experience is..what joseph experience is and how some poor pugger became good in game by joining the unit so everyone can do it.

CW is in bad shape..population wise..it's bleeding and wont stop unless something will change..no..VOIP is not it..4v4 modes wont help either..I want CW be good..I really want..I want these hardcore groups to be struggling in epic fights and I would love to see these elite players to become celebrities among casuals. That would be awesome..but again..if nothing will change, CW development will no longer be profitable ..PGI will need to refocus their resources into standard mode again..or in worse case scenario, just put MWO into life-support and just let it die slowly..

Trust me: I play Steiner - I know exactly the problem with low population numbers. We need close to 80 people just to defend our worlds, not attack, just defend. And that's the minimum. If someone decided to drop 24 on a planet with 12 defenders, well that's an automatic win for them. And that doesn't include going on the offensive.

Is that frustrating? Yes. Absolutely.

After a loss, do I log onto the forums and say everyone else is stupid or making things up? Nope. It's a game. Games are sometimes frustrating. What I do is shut the game off and go play with my dogs for a bit, think about what I could have done differently.

Sometimes, it's nothing I did: I had a great game; "carry harder" and all that - when you're pug-dropping, that's sometimes the breaks - you end up playing with a bunch of players new to the game, or guys who want to Rambo-up and charge into the enemy because that's what works in other FPS. There's not much you can do about that.

Still, CW is what I've been waiting for, at least. It's not exactly what I envisioned, but given this is Beta, I'm pretty sure it's not what PGI is envisioning for a final product, either. They're just trying to get metrics and I'm sure part of that is the population issue. And I'm sure part of the population issue is that people popped into CW to see what it was like, played for a bit, then said "Huh - show it to me when it's finished." So you're right: they're off either in the public queue, or they've moved on to some other game. Will they be back? Who knows?

My thought is that the casual game is rolled up in Skirmish, Assault, and Conquest. If I just want a fun, 15-minute drop, I do that. If I have an hour free? I'll drop in CW. Other people are far more competitive, or in a unit that wants to tag worlds, and to them stomping their way across the stellar landscape, even if it's beta and will be reset, is the whole reason they're here.

[WarHippy]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

you still didn't answer why putting CW maps and modes into quick play would be bad..but I guess this is typical for current system defenders ..

I hate to break it to you there cupcake, but I did answer that question and your response was attack me instead of my argument. So why should anyone else bother to give you more reasons that you will undoubtedly ignore.

Roadbeer, on 11 February 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

So, I have a question.

If over the last 3 years, absolutely nothing has changed in the regards to the "Abuse of PUGs", despite Elo, Matchmaker, removal of groups over 4, etc., etc. In both the Public and CW queues

Why do people still insist on being PUGs?

Because anything else requires a little bit of effort on their part, and it is much easier to make everyone else acquiesce to their needs?

[mania3c]

Dawnstealer, on 11 February 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Trust me: I play Steiner - I know exactly the problem with low population numbers. We need close to 80 people just to defend our worlds, not attack, just defend. And that's the minimum. If someone decided to drop 24 on a planet with 12 defenders, well that's an automatic win for them. And that doesn't include going on the offensive.

Is that frustrating? Yes. Absolutely.

After a loss, do I log onto the forums and say everyone else is stupid or making things up? Nope. It's a game. Games are sometimes frustrating. What I do is shut the game off and go play with my dogs for a bit, think about what I could have done differently.

Sometimes, it's nothing I did: I had a great game; "carry harder" and all that - when you're pug-dropping, that's sometimes the breaks - you end up playing with a bunch of players new to the game, or guys who want to Rambo-up and charge into the enemy because that's what works in other FPS. There's not much you can do about that.

Still, CW is what I've been waiting for, at least. It's not exactly what I envisioned, but given this is Beta, I'm pretty sure it's not what PGI is envisioning for a final product, either. They're just trying to get metrics and I'm sure part of that is the population issue. And I'm sure part of the population issue is that people popped into CW to see what it was like, played for a bit, then said "Huh - show it to me when it's finished." So you're right: they're off either in the public queue, or they've moved on to some other game. Will they be back? Who knows?

My thought is that the casual game is rolled up in Skirmish, Assault, and Conquest. If I just want a fun, 15-minute drop, I do that. If I have an hour free? I'll drop in CW. Other people are far more competitive, or in a unit that wants to tag worlds, and to them stomping their way across the stellar landscape, even if it's beta and will be reset, is the whole reason they're here.

So what about players like me and many others according the forum...I loved dropship idea since it was first mentioned long time ago.. We were promised with this faction system, we bought these mechs with LP bonuses and again, promised, that CW will have content for every player..there was even presentation about it...and suddenly CW dropped and is not for everyone..it's very hardcore experience and whole meta around me and many other people really don't enjoy..so why not just allow us to play these maps and modes? if people don't want allow casual experience within the CW, let casuals enjoy these mode outside CW...telling us "join group, TS, L2P" wont change the way how many people enjoy the game..really..this is really puzzling ...why are many people against casual fun is really weird for me..

also..there is bigger issue..that CW failed for many players..and I believe it's failing even in eyes of devs..but maybe there is hope..if MWO would be able to keep players..but this wont happen if PGI will be developing modes and maps for hardcore crowd only for years or so..

WarHippy, on 11 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

I hate to break it to you there cupcake, but I did answer that question and your response was attack me instead of my

I read that non-sense...in short it was.. CW content should stay special, because if people want be special, they should play CW in way I enjoy..if they don't enjoy, they can't be special...also please don't make CW content not-special, because I am afraid noone will be playing with me and I will be proven wrong ../cry

Edited by mania3c, 11 February 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Apnu]

The biggest problem with CW right now is this:

* There is one game mode and limited maps.
* That game mode is designed to reward team play and organized teams especially.
* The game UI, when not in a match, bleats constantly to all players with attractive and urgent requests to get into CW. Regardless if that player is in a group or not.
* Player clicks a button, winds up on a PUG team, MM then matches that PUG team to a 12man.
* Seal clubbing ensues.

We can go around and around all day about what CW is supposed to be and who's supposed to play it. But the game itself asks all players, regardless of skill, regardless of faction alignment, regardless of unit membership to come in and be slaughtered by a handful of teams playing CW every second they are logged in.

There are three logical solutions to this dilemma:

1) Stop advertising to PUGs about CW.
or
2) Separate PUGs from premades in CW like they are separate in the public queue.
or
3) Bring in more game modes for PUG use. (PvE missions, one-off skirmish battles on a planet, 4v4, 8v8, king of the hill mode, CTF mode, Conquest mode -- ect)

Personally I think #3 is best. More game modes in CW. Have some for PUGs and some for teams. Everybody's happy and pretty much the whole community can take part in CW no matter what their play style is at whatever level of time commitment.

[Dawnstealer]

But what you're seeing isn't CW. It's part of it, yes, but it's not the finished product.

You basically just grabbed a stack of bread off the shelf and said: "This sandwich sucks."

Well, yeah - they haven't put anything in it yet. You've had your say. So have others. PGI has listened because they're rolling in VOIP with the next patch. You know what the big advantage pre-builts have over PUGs? VOIP. So that's going to help.

I agree that CW, to this point, HEAVILY favors prebuilt merc forces over the big Houses that are the lifeblood of the game prior to this iteration. It's cool they're trying to lean to the mercs, but they've overdone it, or they need to rethink it. The mercs flow from one power to another weekly and wherever they land is the new superpower. Mercs should be locked into contracts for longer periods, or perhaps limit the number of mercs that can join a single power.

And I get it from the merc perspective, too. They want tags on planets, they want to get standing with all the powers, and so on. Anyways - if CW is this frustrating for you, why play? I'm not saying that to be a ****: I honestly don't get why you would continue to engage in something that's so obviously frustrating for you.

Maybe pop in a month from now and try it again? Two months? Take a break, man - it's a game: it isn't worth this level of antagonizing. You're personally attacking anyone who disagrees with you over a game. What's the point?

[Roadbeer]

mania3c, on 11 February 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

I read that non-sense...in short it was.. CW content should stay special, because if people want be special, they should play CW in way I enjoy..if they don't enjoy, they can't be special...also please don't make CW content not-special, because I am afraid noone will be playing with me and I will be proven wrong ../cry

If I give you a cookie, will you stop your tantrum?

[Mystere]

Apnu, on 11 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

The biggest problem with CW right now is this:

* There is one game mode and limited maps.
* That game mode is designed to reward team play and organized teams especially.
* The game UI, when not in a match, bleats constantly to all players with attractive and urgent requests to get into CW. Regardless if that player is in a group or not.
* Player clicks a button, winds up on a PUG team, MM then matches that PUG team to a 12man.
* Seal clubbing ensues.

We can go around and around all day about what CW is supposed to be and who's supposed to play it. But the game itself asks all players, regardless of skill, regardless of faction alignment, regardless of unit membership to come in and be slaughtered by a handful of teams playing CW every second they are logged in.

There are three logical solutions to this dilemma:

1) Stop advertising to PUGs about CW.
or
2) Separate PUGs from premades in CW like they are separate in the public queue.
or
3) Bring in more game modes for PUG use. (PvE missions, one-off skirmish battles on a planet, 4v4, 8v8, king of the hill mode, CTF mode, Conquest mode -- ect)

Personally I think #3 is best. More game modes in CW. Have some for PUGs and some for teams. Everybody's happy and pretty much the whole community can take part in CW no matter what their play style is at whatever level of time commitment.

Item #3 is the only real solution. But the "I want everything nao or I will rage quit!" mentality displayed by a lot of people is not helping at all.