594 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Davers, on 12 February 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Does this new 'stock mech' quirk change mean that Griffons will lose the SRM buffs and gain LRM buffs?

Will it give Firestarters flamer quirks instead of s-wubs/etc???

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 12 February 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Did you conveniently forget the part that when the large merc groups went IS en mass, the Clans suffered reversals?

Yes. Because those with agendas (in either direction) always ignore inconvenient details.

[Mcgral18]

Jakob Knight, on 12 February 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

I find it interesting they felt they needed to 'balance' the TDR-9S because they were effective against the Clans (and, let's be honest here, that is the only reason this happened), which happens to be the entire goal of the quirk system, yet the Clan mechs with similar complaints about being overpowered such as the Stormcrow remained unchanged.

If complaints are the driving force behind nerfing the performance of mechs, then this is one-sided as there are just as many if not more complaints against Clan mechs which remained untouched. If the driving force is the performance of the mech against the opposing faction, then the nerf was not needed as the TDR-9S was doing exactly what it should have been doing.

Either way, I'm mystified why these changes were seen as needed or in any way good for the 'balance' between Inner Sphere and Clan units. Are Clan units going to have their DPS dropped to the same level as the Inner Sphere? If not, then the idea the TDR needed a DPS drop is unfounded.

But it didn't get a DPS drop. It has the same 25% RoF reduction.


It also STILL has the lowest ERPPC heat, at 11.25. While you could effectively run 3 before, 2 will run at the same heat. A warranted nerf.

It also gains projectile speed. Pop them in that super high mounted RT and take some backup MLs....since, by the way, that ERPPC was cooler than 2 MLs(on unquirked mechs).


Still, 35% might have been a better place to start.

[FupDup]

InspectorG, on 12 February 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Will it give Firestarters flamer quirks instead of s-wubs/etc???

The main Flamer quirk the FS9 needs is Flamers not being garbage.

Edited by FupDup, 12 February 2015 - 08:09 PM.

[Davers]

InspectorG, on 12 February 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Will it give Firestarters flamer quirks instead of s-wubs/etc???

Not unless they want everyone to shelve it.

[Matthew Ace]

Xetelian, on 12 February 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

Spider 5D gets 3 crappy quirks

The quirks are few but they are far from crappy. At least for me. Now I can TAG up to a longer range or poke better with a ERLL.

[Blaze32]

why did you remove the cicada 3c's erppc range quirk the extra velocity is nice but i will miss sniping from 2km away and wow did the locusts get nerfed!? who will use the locust 3m now? awesome idea with the buff to the locust 1v by making the ERLL duration 50% it will be OP

[WarHippy]

Ultimatum X, on 12 February 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Here's a recap for all of the people who have poor memory.



TDR-9S: First Quirk Pass
Additional Structure (LT & RT) +10
ER-PPC Heat Generation -12.5%
Energy Weapon Heat Generation 12.5%
ER PPC Cooldown +12.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown +12.5%
Energy Weapon Range +15%
Laser Duration -15%
Missile Weapon Range +15%


Result? Still not a good mech.


TDR-9S: Second Quirk Pass
Additional Structure L/R Torso +15
ER-PPC Cooldown 12.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown 12.5%
ER-PPC Heat Generation -25%
Energy Weapon Heat Generation-25%
ER-PPC Velocity 15%
Laser Duration -15%

Result? Competitive mech, one of the few IS heavies that can stand against IS heavies.


TDR-9S: Third Quirk Pass
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +15
ER-PPC Heat Gen -12.5%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -12.5%
ER-PPC Cooldown +12.5%
Energy Weapon Cooldown +12.5%
ER-PPC Velocity +30%
Laser Duration -15%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +15%


Back to the exact same -heat gen when no one was using it.


1300m/s projectile speed, is not sufficient for a long range sniping mech, and does not compensate for the loss of -heat gen.

And now it once again has missile quirks, that you can't realistically use running ER PPCs.

I mostly agree with you since I do remember the first pass and the people still proclaiming it bad. Where I disagree with you is that the -50% heat being competitive. It was over the top, but 25% is too low given past experiences. Something like 35% to maybe 40% seems more in line to me. The boost in velocity will help some under some circumstances, but it isn't the be all end all of making them good considering the velocity for them should probably be at the boosted amount by default.

[Fate 6]

WarHippy, on 12 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

I mostly agree with you since I do remember the first pass and the people still proclaiming it bad. Where I disagree with you is that the -50% heat being competitive. It was over the top, but 25% is too low given past experiences. Something like 35% to maybe 40% seems more in line to me. The boost in velocity will help some under some circumstances, but it isn't the be all end all of making them good considering the velocity for them should probably be at the boosted amount by default.

What Ultimatum also fails to realize is that it was way better than every IS heavy. The only IS heavy that could come close was the DRG-1N and that was because the 1N got similarly absurd quirks. Also, he doesn't realize that ERPPCs can be used at close range in conjunction with SRMs to brawl well with instant damage and torso twisting away. If he needs lessons I'll be in my Panther next week.

The current heat quirks keep the ERPPC just more than normal PPC heat which is completely fine. You have plenty of hardpoints for backup weapons which should keep you safe in close engagements. The 9S is finally where it should be.

[Blaze32]

Dulahan, on 12 February 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yeah, no kidding. I did for the Wubverine... and the Raven 2X. I no longer even have an LPL Mech.

catapult C1 with 3 LPLs, 18 DHS and 315xl is a good subsitute for these not as fast but it can jump and has more armor CPLT-C1

[Bishop Steiner]

WarHippy, on 12 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

I mostly agree with you since I do remember the first pass and the people still proclaiming it bad. Where I disagree with you is that the -50% heat being competitive. It was over the top, but 25% is too low given past experiences. Something like 35% to maybe 40% seems more in line to me. The boost in velocity will help some under some circumstances, but it isn't the be all end all of making them good considering the velocity for them should probably be at the boosted amount by default.

In truth it was proclaimed bad mostly because it was simply assumed to still be bad by most, and other mechs had more visibly over quirked capabilities to gravitate toward. And because for certain parties, a mech is only good when you can boat things to ridiculous levels.

You will note one thing different between the first pass and this.... 30% projectile speed increase. Ultimatum can say that is meaningless all he wants, yet the forums have shown time and again that for a lot of people, THAT boost was more desirable than the heat even.

That allows it to take those 2 er ppcs, and while not able to super spam, still maintain a good rate of fire, but be much more accurate with that fire at long range.

Also, I am pretty sure they are using these Quirks passes to get telemetry on weapons. And hopefully, to use that info for some future weapon balance passes....which would hopefully reduce the need to rely so heavily on quirks in the first place.

Fate 6, on 12 February 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

What Ultimatum also fails to realize is that it was way better than every IS heavy. The only IS heavy that could come close was the DRG-1N and that was because the 1N got similarly absurd quirks. Also, he doesn't realize that ERPPCs can be used at close range in conjunction with SRMs to brawl well with instant damage and torso twisting away. If he needs lessons I'll be in my Panther next week.

The current heat quirks keep the ERPPC just more than normal PPC heat which is completely fine. You have plenty of hardpoints for backup weapons which should keep you safe in close engagements. The 9S is finally where it should be.

No. You are wrong.

He absolutely DOES realize that. If you read his posts, he simply has a strong agenda to keep it that way. But for him to admit those points only weakens his argument to maintain things that way.

[Greenjulius]

Blaze32, on 12 February 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

why did you remove the cicada 3c's erppc range quirk the extra velocity is nice but i will miss sniping from 2km away and wow did the locusts get nerfed!? who will use the locust 3m now? awesome idea with the buff to the locust 1v by making the ERLL duration 50% it will be OP

I don't get this one. The 3C really needed a lot of range to protect it from firestarters who might pursue. At least they added the ballistic cooldown so it can fire those AC5s faster.

[Blaze32]

Nori Silverrage, on 12 February 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

You are funny. Try fitting a 7 ton weapon in a mech with 6.14t available (that includes endo and FF). I suppose you could downgrade the engine to a xl180 and get a whole 6.64t available. If you strip armor you could fit one!

LCT-1E just take 11 armor of usless arm and 2 off the head and your golden

[Blaze32]

Greenjulius, on 12 February 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

I don't get this one. The 3C really needed a lot of range to protect it from firestarters who might pursue. At least they added the ballistic cooldown so it can fire those AC5s faster.

ac/5s lol get on my level CDA-3C (what i use in pug drops) or CDA-3C with the cooldown buff

[Fate 6]

Blaze32, on 12 February 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

ac/5s lol get on my level CDA-3C (what i use in pug drops) or CDA-3C with the cooldown buff

I just threw up a little in my mouth

[Bishop Steiner]

Blaze32, on 12 February 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

LCT-1E just take 11 armor of usless arm and 2 off the head and your golden

that's one fast PPC. My panther is a little jealous, lol.

[Blaze32]

Fate 6, on 12 February 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

I just threw up a little in my mouth

lol you dont have fun?! here is a more sensible build CDA-3C but if you want more random here you go CDA-3C (can you believe i solo killed 3 lights with this? hid and powered down at base in assault and waited for lights to try and cap then bang bang bang!) and my favorite CDA-3C

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

In truth it was proclaimed bad mostly because it was simply assumed to still be bad by most, and other mechs had more visibly over quirked capabilities to gravitate toward. And because for certain parties, a mech is only good when you can boat things to ridiculous levels.

All true, but that was the case long before the quirks were ever introduced. The problem is where they get their tier list and how much value they put in it. A lot of grief and frustration could have been avoided if they lessened their reaction to claims of garbage/OP.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

You will note one thing different between the first pass and this.... 30% projectile speed increase. Ultimatum can say that is meaningless all he wants, yet the forums have shown time and again that for a lot of people, THAT boost was more desirable than the heat even.

That allows it to take those 2 er ppcs, and while not able to super spam, still maintain a good rate of fire, but be much more accurate with that fire at long range.

The velocity buff was more desirable to the community because the speed of PPCs in general was over nerfed previously. That being said I have never had any issues hitting people at range without the velocity buffs so for me the velocity buffs are not particularly impressive, but I do understand that it helps some people.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Also, I am pretty sure they are using these Quirks passes to get telemetry on weapons. And hopefully, to use that info for some future weapon balance passes....which would hopefully reduce the need to rely so heavily on quirks in the first place.

Well that would be nice but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Greenjulius]

Fate 6, on 12 February 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

I just threw up a little in my mouth

I was just about to say the same thing.

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

that's one fast PPC. My panther is a little jealous, lol.

25% less heat.
25% more range

Faster, and smaller.