215 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 13 February 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

Oh thank God.....

Been hoping for a new meta-shift. When the TBR and SCR pilots are complaining, you know there's something up...

eh, next we just need to see those mechs get nailed.

EvilCow, on 13 February 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

If there is a lesson to be learned here then it is that forum whining do work.

Yup. The power of 10 people has held PGI totally hostage. Totally see a business that actually did that not making it to their 16th year anniversary.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarlic, on 13 February 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

I think it was bloody time to get rid of builds. Weed them out instead of nerfing per chassis and or weapon values.

We all have been expecting this.

I am sure i am going to piss or jarate some people off by saying this.
Well, sort of in my opinion. Just a pick of what i am seeing lately:

• Stalker with only LL. Nothing else.
  
• Direwolfs with only CUAC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts with ER PPC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts 5K with only MPLs. Nothing el
  
• King crabs with only UAC. Nothing else.
  
• Stormcrows with only Streaks. Nothing else.
  
• Firestarters with only SMPLs. Nothing else.
  
• Wolverines with LSMPL. Nothing else.
  
• Maddog with SRMS6. Nothing else.
  
• Cidada with PPCs. Nothing else.
  
• Raven with only ERLL. Nothing else.
  
• Jager with AC40 or Gauss Rilfes. Nothing else.

.. Do i really have to name them all?





And my story goes on..

Spoiler

Customising. It has it's plus, but it has also have ther cons.

This is no meta. This is 'crap' and has in my opinion nothing to do with customizing at all.
With people dropping hardpoints in order to get the most out of their mech. Or should i say [insert vomit technology] here is something i have been seeing alot more in the game. And it's increasing by the day.

Look, i like to customize as well. And it's a challenge to fill in all the hardpoints you need in order to profit on all ranges. Customising your mech is one of the fun most things ingame. Both making it your mech and outfit personal as it gets. Camo-paint and you're ready to go.
But things change when people are intentionally dropping hardpoints in order to get more 'dakka' or 'vomit'.

I am personally really getting tired of seeing these builds over and over again and shows that people only play as a invidual for getting the highest damage as possible.
That's no build for teamwork.

Nothing wrong with making brawlers and such. You can do that with all hardpoints filled in. Less 'dakka' or 'vomit', but more skillfull and fun.
Back in the days of both closed and open beta we had to deal with the same issue. The issue still precists.

I am talking about a requirement: basic thing of filling all hardpoint prior to launch in battle. Numerous people have tried to brough this subject up multiple times, unfortunatly up to now without any succes.

Allright, for each summed up build so far you can counter it. I know each build comes with a risk. Which is in any particulary case not bad, but i personally feel it's just to show how big your ball of sock in your underwear is.
Right, to my knowlegde you either can make the build work with a decent risk of for example overheating or less armor but the fact still remains that there is still some [vomit technology] in there.
Now i don't judge for example the Nova, because the Prime has a standard hardpoint loadout of 6E. Or other examples who are hardtied such as the Catapult or the Stalker.

If you think i am whining just about a thing that everyone is 'free' to customize then i would like to tell you how much Thunderbolts only carrying the ERPPCs have you noticed in about the last couple, let's say, about three weeks?
That's right. It's pretty obvious. Because of the quirks the TDR got buffed pretty good which people gladly make use of it. Just because it's so (terrible) good people are even buying the Mech and outfit it with that specific 'meta'.

-Or-

I am sure you have seen some new 'greenies' on your team. You have to carry, you have to learn and apapt, you have to aid and perhaps you have to tank for them. But have you ever noticed that particular 'greenie' is carrying a better loadout for the team then you?
"Look at that. My goodness. It has a LRM rack onboard. And a couple of lasers as well!"

The greenie might not be experienced, but i like his loadout way more then your [insert meta] loadout. They learn how to adapt a loadout with all weaponsvariety and ranges. I don't say he or she will be a top damage dealer, but their loadout in a supportive is way better.

Which i now come to the point that people are going for the -best of the best- obvious what's available at the time, which is really a shame actually. Let me remind you of another example. When the Victor and the Dragon Slayer got introduced. Shortly after these wonderful chassis arrived people began to use to poptart with it. Yes..before you think out loud it was with PPCs.
Because the JJ (or better said Jump Jets) was alot more viable then now. With all the complaints of 'poptarting', PGI decided to adjust the JJ-system (The mechs got later). Which has elimited the poptarting for now.
Pinpoint damage have changed alot the past years. People got faster at it, tons of weaponvalues have been changed and new mechs added and or quirked.

Back on the countermeasures. Now you will probaly think: "Each Mech with that loadout has a (certain) risk. Deal with it!".
I can deal with it, for now. But i wished things would have been a little different. I can wish, right?
What happened with actually customising for the better goal; loadout variety. Or better said: a supreme cornerstone for your team. A team supportive build with weapons variety on all ranges.

Am i saying that customising should be removed? Ofcourse not. I like customizing as much as you do, but my only vote goes for all hardpoints needs to be filled in.
I would like to see a stockmode only que. But that's offtopic. So i will not waste your time on that, ha.

Wether you instead go full boating with MPLs you will have a few MPLs with a rack of streaks and one AMS. Well, i am sure you get the idea.

My question to you: How do you think about this kind of builds and what would your proposed solution be? What would you change in the current system?

You don't have to like my vision or opinion, but please remain constructive. Oneliners are lame and not wanted. Again, this is my opinion.

Thanks alot.

See you on the field.

Don't agree with having to fill every hardpoint anymore than I do with the generic vomit builds, but it was a good read with some interesting ideas. That said, most stock mechs don't fill every hardpoint, like the CN9-A that has 2 ballistic, 3 Missile and 2 energy. That leaves 3 unfilled hardpoints, just to use it stock. Therefore, the idea can't really work. Really the only thing to do, atm, is to keep GH (and possibly even enhance some aspects of it) and continue to use quirks to try to reward and encourage more diverse loadouts.

The Pros? They'll keep boating, regardless. End of the day, they play a very different game than 90% of the playerbase. And there is nothing wrong with that. The only issue is when the 1% tries to get the game built to reflect their minmax boating desires. Of course many of the lemmings follow suit, but the issues is, unless you are on a disciplined unit all using similar builds, those meta builds are rarely all that effective at actually helping the team win.

Unfortunately, 4-5 iterations of MW PvP, has always come down to the same issues.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bobzilla, on 13 February 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

If he truly wanted valid input, he'd have to give statistics. Ask any group what should be done based solely on how they feel and give no facts is asking for these types of responses.

Nobody is right or wrong, so arguments can't be anything but anicdotel. That combined with vastly different experiences in game makes it 10 times worse.

I'd wager he doesn't play that much so seeks advice from a select few, and then makes changes based on community outrage. Which kinda makes sense to me. Sure people say the forums are a vocal minority, but maybe they represent the silent majority perfectly.

and which group did he ask how it should be done? Didn't ask me. Apparently didn't ask you. If they really want to balance things, they won't ask any of us, because we all have bias and agenda. Needs to be done on the raw data, period.

Astrocanis, on 13 February 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

You sound inordinately bitter. You having too hard a time in your OP clan tech? Playing IS and finding yourself not quite as uber as you thought you were? Or should be?

LOL - Schadenfreude works both ways bubba.

And for the record I rarely play the TDR.

Thank you dr Freud. Might keep your day job, as you are apparently a lousy psychiatrist and profiler.

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 February 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well, it would make more sense ot just give the PPC 30% velocity and not need the quirk....but I guess that would make to much sense. Its like quirks are a bandaid to try and cover up the thousands of gameplay/balance errors in this game.

bingo.

I really wish I did have the influence over PGI that people seem to assume some of us do. I'd certainly be implementing my 12 Step Program to Balance MWO, which woul dpiss off a bunch of people, make a bunch more happy, and at the end of the day, have a more balanced game, and just as much QQ...because that is the reality...people are going to whine and cry no matter what.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

I really wish I did have the influence over PGI that people seem to assume some of us do. I'd certainly be implementing my 12 Step Program to Balance MWO, which woul dpiss off a bunch of people, make a bunch more happy, and at the end of the day, have a more balanced game, and just as much QQ...because that is the reality...people are going to whine and cry no matter what.

yup, people need to understand Balance is a never ending thing,
and Russ did say the quirks are fluid and will change constantly, nothing is stable yet,
so some mechs may get individual passes after all mechs are fully quirked out and balanced,

[Sarlic]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 February 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

yup, people need to understand Balance is a never ending thing,
and Russ did say the quirks are fluid and will change constantly, nothing is stable yet,
so some mechs may get individual passes after all mechs are fully quirked out and balanced,

Exactly. But there's something wrong when people are going to boat wubby, cheesy builds or full dakka. (With the some being a exception as seen in my previous post).

I am highly against this kind of crap

The TDR is the classic example of what i mean. Overquirked, alot of people are buying it, boats with it, people complain afterwards. Now tears rolls when it gets 'nerfed' hard again.

This is the reason why PGI should (or had) introduce balance changes on a test server, compile feedback and change in three strikes.

Edited by Sarlic, 15 February 2015 - 02:57 AM.

[kapusta11]

The thing is, since it's not TT and you don't roll for hit allocation, thus nothing stops you from 1) stacking several weapons of the same type, 2) firing them simultaneously and 3) hitting specific component with all of them. In fact this is the best way to play because mixed loadouts require you to put more efforts to achieve the same results and you'll have more facetime in combat because of weapons not sharing same mechanic.

You can fix 1 via sized hardpoints but that will limit customization greatly. Not to mention that there were no such thing like hardpoints in TT.

You can fix 3 via cone of fire or making everything spread damage BUT it will eliminate all variation in how the game plays since most weapons will work more or less in the same way.

You can fix 2 buy caping group fire damage with cone of fire acting like penalty, you'll still be able to fire where you aim but pinpoint alpha strike gameplay will be gone. That would fulfill the purpose of dice rolling fom TT nicely. Bad idea? PGI already hard caped Gauss when Direwolf was released, you can't charge more than two. PPCs are soft caped as well, you have an option to fire more than 3 but that will result in Ghost Heat penalty which to don't want to deal with, especially with TT levels of heat dissipation. Mixed FLD loadouts were desynced in projectile speed. However, Lasers are not caped and it's easy to avoid Ghost Heat by mixing medium and large lasers that share same cooldowns/burn times/range, that's why it's current meta.

There are no alternatives really, the only way to nerf boating now is to nerf individual weapons which will also nerf mixed loadouts and boating will remain superior. The only way to buff underperformes is to turn them into boats which is hard to do if you don't have enough hardpoints. Cooldown quirks may be good but DPS builds are inferior to alpha strike ones because of higher facetime. Quirks in general won't help here much.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 February 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

I agree with the overall notion of this thread.

It's good that one of a handful of viable IS mechs gets toned down. I hope they also tone down the wolverine while they're at it. For quirk pass 3, maybe they should look into banshees, awesomes, jags, firestarters, and dragons?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vassago Rain, on 15 February 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

I agree with the overall notion of this thread.

It's good that one of a handful of viable IS mechs gets toned down. I hope they also tone down the wolverine while they're at it. For quirk pass 3, maybe they should look into banshees, awesomes, jags, firestarters, and dragons?

Iced Ferrets, Missed Lynxs, Lol-vas, Suckoners, Peacedoves and Toygoyles,

Pass 4 they can go back and play with the IS quirks again.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 15 February 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Meh. It'd be one thing if the velocity bonus was 50%. But instead they upped it by 15%. And gave it a missile cooldown quirk.

[ExplodedZombie]

CygnusX7, on 12 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Makes me wonder why PGI seems to take things so far the first time and then reels it back in.

It's pretty standard for balance changes. You make your first change to the extreme of what you imagine might be plausible, measure the change, then make one change based on data collected. Otherwise, every single week you have to make tiny adjustments until you get it right, often taking much longer and not really based on solid data. They have been doing it right, despite the swings in balance it causes.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 15 February 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[Brody319]

The Thunderbolt will still be king if PGI didn't give better PPC quirks to another chassis. Like the Catapult or Awesome.

people will just strip the third PPC, throw in a few more heat sinks, and have to be a bit more accurate and more controlled in their shots.

[Artgathan]

Regarding the 'quirks increase boating' issue:

Way back in Closed Beta I suggested having 'tiered' quirks tied to mech that unlocked based on what you had in your mech. The idea (in general) was that more powerful quirks would unlock as your mech diversified its loadout.

For instance, a Centurion boating only SRMs would get a +5% reload speed, while one mounting SRMs and some energy weapon would get +10%, and a Cent carrying SRMs, Lasers and a Ballistic weapon would get +20%.

[Scyther]

Well mine was always a 2 ERPPC + a LL anyway, so fine by me...

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 15 February 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Regarding the 'quirks increase boating' issue:

Way back in Closed Beta I suggested having 'tiered' quirks tied to mech that unlocked based on what you had in your mech. The idea (in general) was that more powerful quirks would unlock as your mech diversified its loadout.

For instance, a Centurion boating only SRMs would get a +5% reload speed, while one mounting SRMs and some energy weapon would get +10%, and a Cent carrying SRMs, Lasers and a Ballistic weapon would get +20%.

I pushed for a similar thought, but mostly, the more of a weapon you carried, the lower the percentage became.

For instance, lets say you got 45% heat reduction on an ER PPC, for 2, you would get 30%, and 3, 15%.

Or something like that, alternately, and less harsh would be something like 1 at 50%, 2 at 40%, 3 at 30%.

And to clarify, not punish mechs for roles, the Base % number starts at the stock number of said weapon. SO an AWS is not "hit" for carrying it's stock loadout....but adding a 4th PPC would reduce it's quirks% for all the PPCs.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

I pushed for a similar thought, but mostly, the more of a weapon you carried, the lower the percentage became.

For instance, lets say you got 45% heat reduction on an ER PPC, for 2, you would get 30%, and 3, 15%.

Or something like that, alternately, and less harsh would be something like 1 at 50%, 2 at 40%, 3 at 30%.

And to clarify, not punish mechs for roles, the Base % number starts at the stock number of said weapon. SO an AWS is not "hit" for carrying it's stock loadout....but adding a 4th PPC would reduce it's quirks% for all the PPCs.

...and AWS would STILL be a bad mech.

Eitherway, various mechanics (not to mention maps) ensure that "stock" loadout will always be garbage

Edited by CantHandletheTruth, 15 February 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

CantHandletheTruth, on 15 February 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

...and AWS would STILL be a bad mech.

Eitherway, various mechanics (not to mention maps) ensure that "stock" loadout will always be garbage

odd...if 3 ppc/er ppc are so bad, why is the TDR-9S so good?

[Jagger225]

Anyone else truly enjoy a 3 ppc hunchie?

Where are my PPC quirks for my old hunchbacks??

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

odd...if 3 ppc/er ppc are so bad, why is the TDR-9S so good?

Thunderbolt has cockpit level PPCs, can just hump a hill and never be seen.

I think they prefer to just be so small a target even surgeons couldn't hit the mark, and be able to throw 20 damage down range with no heat limit. then they will come to the forums to defend it as "balanced" because clans totally have the same ability to hill hump.

[Mavairo]

Long as the quirks went to the AWS...

What I don't get is the 1G BLR change.... it worked great with LL quirks...now they gimped it's brawl ability.

[C E Dwyer]

Asrrin, on 12 February 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I think this TDR-9S build will be good for it. upgrades the engine from a 280 to 300, keeps the same heat dissipation while sniping at the cost of dropping the third ERPPC (which didn't always hit because it had to lag behind by half a second) and gets 3 MLs for dealing with brawlers.

best build I've seen in this thread, so far, other have been to slow for my tastes.