138 replies to this topic

[Morticia Mellian]

In another scenario today, as I get use to playing with Mist Lynx for the first time, I got completely disarmed and crippled, then last alive again. Remaining opponents moving toward me and last teammate, so i back up and power down to hide as nothing i could do to them.

Bunch of the opponents pass by, didnt see me or ignoring me as 'dead', and then i power up, started following right behind them, slowly and surely. Spotted a Timber Wolf arriving from another angle that could spot me, so I power down, they pass by and ignore me thinking i am wreckage, I power up and try following them. Even went up hill with the timber wolf with jump jets.

They stopped and standed there for a bit, and myself right behind them in their blind spot, moving to stay there as much as possible. Then they turned and I jump jetted backwards a bit, and found me right in front of them. Hi!! Wassup?

Took another minute to kill me as i tried to jump around them, up and down, lol.

In this case, I am sooo hiding, yet instead of just staying there, I tried following them in their blind spot in small mech. It was bloody amusing. Was it abuse if they didn't just turn around to see me, and sometimes powering down when they do, not realizing a 'dead' mech as been following them like a toothless weeping angel? : p

Edited by Morticia Mellian, 13 February 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[Morticia Mellian]

We are all cylons, all fighting, die, repeat, arena matches. So we need to die if your going to lose the match anyway? Terrible form of 'etiquette'. If PGI is against KDRs, then why have it, or any other stats?? There is already a Win/Loss ratio stat.

So yes, option to eject and not die would be nice. If there was still repair/ammo bills, it would make it costly.

Edited by Morticia Mellian, 13 February 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[F4T 4L]

Morticia Mellian, on 13 February 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

So yes, option to eject and not die would be nice. If there was still repair/ammo bills, it would make it costly.

It'd be awful. Thousands of dumbasses would eject as soon as the score went more than a couple of mechs against them.

[pyrocomp]

Thread after thread there is same opinions grind going on.
PGI frowns on attempts to protect KDR, but nowhere is stated that it is forbidden. Unwelcome, yes, but to frobid that you should have means to prove that KDR protection was sole main intent of running away, higing and shutting down in skirmish. If some one wants to test his/her skill to gain one more kill via any available means (and shutting down is viable for dissappearance from radar, this very game states that on waiting screen) no one can object. Stretching reply on situation of running away, shutting down and waiting the clock to run out in skirmish on any other mode (assault and conquest) or on lack of active action in someones opinion or refusal to run face-hugging assault is actually wishful thinking.

Look at the situation not from 'I grind, I an busy grinding, I want grind now' viewpoint (exagaration, but still) but from BT Univerce point of view. If you are a Clan pilot - run and die gloriously in a battle as a truborn. If you are an IS pilot then tell me since when suicide pilot were allowed into service (should state that here I'm not so sure on busido and Kurita armed forces codexes, but as I remember, that all was done later and privately) or when survival to till the next battle stopped being main mercenary strategy? And almost everyone rants about inexistent roleplay and almost all those people do not want it to be (and yes, roleplay is mainly in heads, not in buttons and game restrictions, but in decisions made). I really think tahe the non-participation as other rules around it refer mainly to the pattern and history.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Well Mystere, making the enemy work for a kill is only workable if you are actually trying to kill them at the same time, it's Skirmish after all, kill the enemy is the objective. How is shutting down and hiding in Skirmish helping your team win the match? Please, explain this to me in a logical and clear manner and I'll champion your side of the debate.

Until you can do that, which by the by, is impossible since it doesn't help your team win, I'll report the players who do it per PGI's request to do so in Skirmish, simple as that. PGI has determined it's not a valid tactic, it's not playing in the spirit of the game, and it's therefore not allowed.

I personally can see no valid or logical reason to use that tactic, so I do agree with PGI on that call. Unlike previous MW games, PGI gets to make the rules. No other MW title had a persistent world setting, it was always singular games played by the people dropping in them without any overriding authority to tell them what was or wasn't acceptable as we have in MWO. Leagues and the player's themselves decided what the rules would be and enforced them. MW2 through 4 had MUCH bigger maps, lots more places to hide, and this type of tactic was never acceptable in any of the leagues or ladders for those games, from MW2 to MW4, it wasn't allowed to run off and hide until the clock ran down if you were the last Mech standing on your team. Why should it be acceptable now? Seriously, why should it be acceptable in a MW title when it's never been acceptable previously, explain this to me. The leagues and ladders always dictated how we got to play the MW titles, now it's PGI dictating how we play it, and they have so far pretty much followed the same rules that have worked for every previous MW title. Why is this suddenly a problem for some of you who I know played those previous MW titles?

pyro, this isn't a RP game, so that's not a valid excuse for doing it, sorry man, I wish it WERE a RP game, but it's not. Registry on AOL was a RP league, we had at most 5000 players, NBT wasn't enforced RP, we had 2x the members at startup that the Reg had in it's heyday, says it all right there. Most of the players in MWO are just here to drive giant stompy robots, little if any knowledge of the BTech universe, it's story, all of that stuff, they just want to blow **** up man, that's it. From a RP perspective, Clans do NOT hire Mercs, so that would shut out all the non-Clan faction players from using their Clan toys in CW, before you think that would matter, why do you think Mercs can work for the Clans in CW? Wasn't supposed to be that way originally, but things got changed because people spent good real world money on those Clan toys. Instead of just making them join the Clans, the PROPER response, PGI decided to let the Mercs work for the Clans, how nice of them. RP that one pyro, I can't, I RPed a Clan Warrior and a Clan Loremaster for years on the Registry, there's no way to justify Clans hiring Mercs in the Invasion, Clans think Mercs are pretty much the lowest of the low, they fight for MONEY, how debased must you be to do that? Do not try to use RP as the validation of a tactic in this game, it will not fly.

If you hide as the last man standing in Skirmish and do not try to engage the enemy, there are 2 things you could possibly be doing that for:

1) protecting your KDR
2) griefing the enemy

PGI doesn't even need to ASK why you did it, there's no valid reason. You can't pull off a win if you don't engage the enemy, and if you aren't trying to get a win, you are not playing in the spirit of the game for Skirmish mode.

Morticia hasn't done that in either of her reported games in this thread. I love the hide and seek she did in the second game, that was a Clan Trueborn all the way, messing with the enemy's head when unable to mess them up physically. If we had physical attacks, or at least collision damage so that DFA's would work, I have no doubt Morticia would have probably gotten 1 or more kills with that hide and seek. THAT is funny stuff Morticia, keep it up!

[pyrocomp]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 February 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

If you hide as the last man standing in Skirmish and do not try to engage the enemy, there are 2 things you could possibly be doing that for:

1) protecting your KDR
2) griefing the enemy

PGI doesn't even need to ASK why you did it, there's no valid reason. You can't pull off a win if you don't engage the enemy, and if you aren't trying to get a win, you are not playing in the spirit of the game for Skirmish mode.

Morticia hasn't done that in either of her reported games in this thread. I love the hide and seek she did in the second game, that was a Clan Trueborn all the way, messing with the enemy's head when unable to mess them up physically. If we had physical attacks, or at least collision damage so that DFA's would work, I have no doubt Morticia would have probably gotten 1 or more kills with that hide and seek. THAT is funny stuff Morticia, keep it up!

Well, I'll skip a part on RP, for I see your point a see your arguments and I cannot disagree with that BUT I still prefer to hope that that will emerge at some point. And I prefer to set the border differently. If I want to get one more shot on the enemy (various reasons), I will run rings and won't face-hug and I've been only twice rage on the matter 'face the enemy and die', mostly I see (if ever I get to be LSM) comments and advices (unsure why, but I think it's more of timezone related issues as I play around midnight UTC). Seen too many last pair reversals (6-10) to rant on people 'end it' and I can quit the match if I feel low on my actions of teams. But I want a stress on the point that no rules allow or encourage ranting and threatening 'I'll report'. Not that such behavior must be punished, but, I think, unvelcome on PGI's part.

As for described matches... sitting at enemy teams back is a fun way to spend last minutes in a game, but still can be considered by some as idling (no damage possible) and my point is that this grey zone is for mods/devs by players should keep their opinion closer to them.

PS: I can get afk for my 2 year old son if he wakes up... and yes, I'll be in a coner powered down. Was that griefing or KDR protection?

Edited by pyrocomp, 13 February 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

You wan to grief all the other palyers in a match for KDR or role-playing reasons. That is fine, you can use the the temporary suspension from non-participation to stabilize your KDR, or to role-play your return to friendly territory. Everyone is happy, well except the 23 players whose time you wasted and they cannot get back.

but yes, if you lose you weapons, continue to participate, block enemy fire, target enemies, block movement ect.
if all your teammates died because you failed to help them or "are just that good", then yes face the enemy and end the match. There is an obvious difference (to the support staff) between wasting time and stalking enemies.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Morticia Mellian, on 12 February 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

I just had someone saying the reported me which I am guessing referring to Non-Participation Abuse.

We were remaining 2 v 2, and my remaining teammate in a Dire Wolf was afk or dc until the last 10 seconds of the match. It happens, I know my client crashed me sometimes, forcing my mech into afk/dc.

The remaining opponents were Timber Wolf and Warhawk or Dire Wolf, against my already critical Cicada 3M. I tried doing some hit and runs, but I was critical, so I run off hiding, zig zagging, and keeping track of them from a distance when possible for possible opportunities.

Since it was a tie and for some reason they have not found the AFKed teammate's Dire Wolf, so I kept them focus on finding me to run the clock. If I am not able to effectively win, a tie is the next best thing.

I know can be boring and sucks, but the point of the matches is to win, even if it is to force a tie and stay alive. If the only way to do that is to stay alive by taking advantage of my speed and ecm, than i do so.

So I get a bit miffed when someone accuses me of abuse for aiming to win. I mainly play lights/light-medium mechs, not exactly the sort to easilly go one on one versus a heavier mech, let alone versus two or more heavier mechs. If i had my Raven 3L, would have been better able to take distant pop shots at them.

How restrictive is this Non-Participation Abuse rule?

If you were still firing shots, then you were participating. If you were not shooting, then you were not participating...

So... Yeah.

[Ratpoison]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 February 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Stop playing the game in ways different than meeee!

lol no

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 13 February 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

It would actually be nice if PGI would comment on specific situations. To me the answer is obvious, but some official clarification would go a long way.

For instance, you are out of ammo/weapons. What are you allowed to do?
1. hide (and possibly shutdown)
2. run out of bounds
3. run and avoid enemy

Is the answer any different when you still have weapon and/or ammo?

If an any point the Devs/Support suggest that non-engagement is allowed, at what point in the match is it allowed (less than 9 teamates, less than 10 minutes? when?)

Until then, business as usual, if I feel you are intentionally griefing me by wasting my time, report.

I would like to add this special note in for everyone who suggests starting a new match... Quiting a match while still alive is also a reportable offense, plus allowing a player to win by hiding (enemies disconnect) only encourages that behavior. I would much rather waste 5 minutes of my time, so that hundreds of other players don't have to 5 minutes of theirs on the same player.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 13 February 2015 - 05:38 PM.

[SgtMagor]

survive the match, one of the most important objectives in the game, after all the these challenges and contest PGI had, you need to survive the round to get the reward!

[Darlith]

Prosperity Park, on 13 February 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

If you were still firing shots, then you were participating. If you were not shooting, then you were not participating...

So... Yeah.

That's not how it works...

If you are at 2 to 2 and want to run it to a draw you are participating. Especially if you have no weapons or are so torn up you just can't find a good time to backstab them. Same deal with running and hiding so your team caps out at 750 resources. Just because you aren't firing shots doesn't mean you aren't participating.

[Mystere]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 February 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

It would actually be nice if PGI would comment on specific situations. To me the answer is obvious, but some official clarification would go a long way.

All it would take to stop this constantly recurring topic is for PGI to do just that. But alas ...

[Kristov Kerensky]

It would be nice if PGI would comment on specific situations, like going AFK due to a waking child, screaming SO, sudden attack of that burrito for lunch, but they very likely won't. That's rather the point of the 'spirit of the game' line, it gives PGI leeway to decide each case on it's own merits.

Morticia's 2nd match, no guns, unable to attack due to the lack of collisions/physical melee(Clan Warriors DO it, they just feel it's rather..what's the word...vulgar) so, since she had no way to actually attack the enemy, she messed with them. She didn't go hide in a corner, she shadowed them, very smartly too by shutting down at the crucial moments. Anyone who reported her for that is a friggen idiot and PGI will ignore the report after they look at the logs and see what she was doing.

No guns, no ammo, running off to hide to avoid death, that's gonna be one of those judgement calls that PGI makes based on the situation and your patterns of behaviour in other Skirmish matches. I personally think you should just go face death like a Warrior, screaming and biting and kicking, not that it does you any good but at least it ends the match, you've lost anyway, why be a putz about it and drag it out for the remaining enemy players? That's just being spiteful, pure and simple.

I asked a coworker yesterday, you are on a team, playing another team, objective is eliminate the enemy team. You are the last man on your team, multiple enemy left, you run and hide so they can't find you. You can't win doing this, you can't get a draw doing this, so what is your motivation for doing it? He looked at me, grinned, and said "Spite". He doesn't know about this game, doesn't play video games at all, and that answer is what it is when that is done, spite, nothing more, nothing less. Dress it up however you want to try and justify it to yourself, it's spite, pure and simple.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 February 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

It would be nice if PGI would comment on specific situations, like going AFK due to a waking child, screaming SO, sudden attack of that burrito for lunch, but they very likely won't. That's rather the point of the 'spirit of the game' line, it gives PGI leeway to decide each case on it's own merits.

Precisely, and which is why I am most likely still around ... unless of course those legions who threatened to report me were full of cow pie. <maniacal >

[Felicitatem Parco]

Darlith, on 13 February 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

That's not how it works...

If you are at 2 to 2 and want to run it to a draw you are participating. Especially if you have no weapons or are so torn up you just can't find a good time to backstab them. Same deal with running and hiding so your team caps out at 750 resources. Just because you aren't firing shots doesn't mean you aren't participating.

Forcing a draw is not really participating, as your team will gain nothing from it. Drawing out time when you are up in points is a valid way to end the match... But not shooting when you are in a losing position, or in a draw position, is just stalling. Not an attempt to win.

[Darlith]

Prosperity Park, on 13 February 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

Forcing a draw is not really participating, as your team will gain nothing from it. Drawing out time when you are up in points is a valid way to end the match... But not shooting when you are in a losing position, or in a draw position, is just stalling. Not an attempt to win.

You are actively attempting to keep your team form losing, that is participating. You might have a point if they are winning 11-10 and you are weaponless, sure don't be a **** then just end it (until they add dead from above, then go out with a bang). There is nothing that says "If you can't win, go lose or you are stalling."

[Stormyblade]

Kristov has summed up the expectations of this game quite well and yet the same 2 people want to refuse to believe that this is what is expected in this game with cries of "I won't play the game the way that someone else tells me to play!" and "I am not violating any rules and/or if I want to preserve my KDR I should be allowed to do so!"

Something tells me these 2 want to just argue for argument's sake. Even when faced with logic, and replies from PGI, they still claim they aren't doing anything wrong. Sad, very sad.

[Mystere]

Stormyblade, on 14 February 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Kristov has summed up the expectations of this game quite well and yet the same 2 people want to refuse to believe that this is what is expected in this game with cries of "I won't play the game the way that someone else tells me to play!" and "I am not violating any rules and/or if I want to preserve my KDR I should be allowed to do so!"

Something tells me these 2 want to just argue for argument's sake. Even when faced with logic, and replies from PGI, they still claim they aren't doing anything wrong. Sad, very sad.

Is there no logic behind making the enemy earn the last kill instead of making it easy for them by just going "I'm here! I give up! Shoot me!"?

Is there no logic in going for a tie instead of a loss?

And yet people find it ok to stalk the enemy without any chance of winning either:

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 February 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Well Mystere, making the enemy work for a kill is only workable if you are actually trying to kill them at the same time, it's Skirmish after all, kill the enemy is the objective. How is shutting down and hiding in Skirmish helping your team win the match? Please, explain this to me in a logical and clear manner and I'll champion your side of the debate.

...

Morticia hasn't done that in either of her reported games in this thread. I love the hide and seek she did in the second game, that was a Clan Trueborn all the way, messing with the enemy's headwhen unable to mess them up physically. If we had physical attacks, or at least collision damage so that DFA's would work, I have no doubt Morticia would have probably gotten 1 or more kills with that hide and seek. THAT is funny stuff Morticia, keep it up!

Don't you see the contradiction you yourself made? Was the latter ok because you found it "funny" and/or it was a "Clan Trueborn all the way" act? If so, where in the rules does it say that either is a valid option?


What is much needed is a clarification from PGI regarding the above as well as others.

Edited by Mystere, 14 February 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[pyrocomp]

>@Kristov

Not sure I can find it on forums from my phone but PGI made comments regarding real life being absolute reasonable excuse for many things. It was said commenting then upcoming CW. Should try to dig it. But again, on the initial topic: IMHO, non-participation refers to pattern and history, rage shouts 'go and die or I'll report' I consider as offence (and clarification on this from PGI would also be welcome). KDR protection I personally don't understand, but there are many thing that I don't understand in human nature, and I'm not that good pilot to bother about it.


PS: gaming for a draw gains a team at least saving of elo (and elo protection is another set of...).

PSS: Kristov, using a single answer from a single man is not a valid statistics and hence not a valid rhetorical action to use it. I believe that the same as your colleague evaluation will say many other people, but just... don't weaken your statement that way.

Edited by pyrocomp, 14 February 2015 - 06:24 AM.