138 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, no contradiction, Morticia was unable to hurt the enemy but did NOT run, hide and totally avoid them so they couldn't get the kill. She shadowed them, walked right behind them, she was actively engaging them the entire time. They finally realized it and killed her. She was most definately participating.

As for a draw, I'm gonna give that to the surviving players to decide, there's 2 of them and 2 enemy, they stay alive and get a draw, that's fine by me, they did NOT cause a loss. LMS can't force a draw unless there's only 1 enemy left, so that's the only time it would acceptable to run and hide in Skirmish. It's not what I'd LIKE, but it's perfectly acceptable by the rules and I'll defend your right to do as long as it's not against the rules.

pyro, I know 1 isn't a data field, but in this situation, it's a pretty good indicator. I wandered around WalMart last night and just asked random people the question, oddly enough, most people answered, I must look trustworthy or really really scary, I'm betting on the later. I got, without any deviation at all, the same response as my coworker gave me, except one teenage girl 'I would never play a game like that!', asked, what if you were forced to play it? 'I'd just go get eliminated first so I didn't have to play'. Even asked my 8 yr old granddaughter, she didn't understand why someone would go hide at all if you can't win that way and will lose doing it.

That's the face to face social reaction, I'm sure some of those folks WOULD go and hide, they know it's griefing, but they can hide in the aether of the internet and do things they'd never do in reality.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"This is fine. If there had been 10 of them and 2 of you, not so much."

See, this is where we get into problems. I know you mean well, but if its 10v2, I should still get to play.

Sure, there is no way I will pull out win, but how am I ever going to get good enough to flip a 3v1 if you won't let me practice on the 10v2?

People need to accept that they signed on for 15 mins. If the match ends sooner, that's a bonus. If the last enemy standing presents himself for execution to move things along, that's a courtesy, not a gift to be demanded and griefed over.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 February 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Mystere, no contradiction, Morticia was unable to hurt the enemy but did NOT run, hide and totally avoid them so they couldn't get the kill. She shadowed them, walked right behind them, she was actively engaging them the entire time. They finally realized it and killed her. She was most definately participating.

Ahem!

Let us review again the following criteria being used by people as "non-participation":

• You have no chance of winning.
  
• Your are not shooting the enemy.
  
• You are hiding from the enemy.
  
• You are powering down to hide.
  
• You are running down the clock by hiding.

It can be argued that Morticia violated all of them.

In addition, let me quote this incriminating ( ) statement from you:

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 February 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

You can't pull off a win if you don't engage the enemy, and if you aren't trying to get a win, you are not playing in the spirit of the game for Skirmish mode.

Morticia had no way of pulling off a win no matter what, wasn't trying to get a win, and therefore was not playing in the spirit of the game for Skirmish mode ("it's Skirmish after all, kill the enemy is the objective" - your words too).

And yet, we both agree that Morticia's actions are valid. As such, don't you think further clarification from PGI is warranted, lest we get another 30+ page thread on the very same topic?

Should I continue?

Edited by Mystere, 14 February 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

If one doesn't want to watch the rest of the match, no matter how it is being played, then just quit and play a different match. Yes, I know you might not have your precious that is still in the other match, but no one is wasting your time except yourself.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, this is why I said you are just sowing confusion.

Morticia had little, if any chance, of winning(collision damage DOES exist, miniscule, but it's there), but she did NOT run away, shutdown and hide to avoid the enemy, she was actively engaging them.. Splitting semantic hairs is just sowing confusion.

Fenris, no one saying you can't play, the rule says you must play to win, not grief people by hiding if you are the last man standing in Skirmish, avoiding them totally, which gives no chance for a win to be achieved by you. You want to run around sniping and engaging in guerrilla tactics, that's allowed. Stop making it out that the rule doesn't allow anything but suicide charges or that we're saying that's what it says, both are false and you know it. More sowing of confusion, that's all you are doing there.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 15 February 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Mystere, this is why I said you are just sowing confusion.

Morticia had little, if any chance, of winning(collision damage DOES exist, miniscule, but it's there), but she did NOT run away, shutdown and hide to avoid the enemy, she was actively engaging them.. Splitting semantic hairs is just sowing confusion.

Fenris, no one saying you can't play, the rule says you must play to win, not grief people by hiding if you are the last man standing in Skirmish, avoiding them totally, which gives no chance for a win to be achieved by you. You want to run around sniping and engaging in guerrilla tactics, that's allowed. Stop making it out that the rule doesn't allow anything but suicide charges or that we're saying that's what it says, both are false and you know it. More sowing of confusion, that's all you are doing there.

It is less about sowing confusion and more about showing the inconsistencies in people's positions and arguments, like yours.

Hence the clear need for clarification from PGI.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Fenris, no one saying you can't play"

Wrong. Your side keeps saying the last man should just die quickly and get it over with so they can get back to their grind. If you don't agree with that, you should get off their side.

"Stop making it out that the rule doesn't allow anything but suicide charges or that we're saying that's what it says, both are false and you know it."

And yet, every time someone posts that they were griefed for doing something other than a suicide charge, your boys wade in and start talking about people hiding and shutting down the entire match. The OP even had to repeat herself, just to keep you guys from distorting the point again: "I didn't power down, I just ran around the map, keeping my distance from them. Last time I intentionally powered down is to temporally hide so they go by, and then i hit them from behind."

So yes, one side is being dishonest here, and its not mine.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Ghogiel in particular has stated that doing hit & runs on a 1 v 10 is "wasting his time" and "griefing" him, and is a reportable offense.

Maybe you should learn what your own side has been advocating before complaining that we are "sowing confusing"

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere and Fenris, if someone ELSE is giving false information and sowing confusion, the proper response is NOT to sow more confusion, it's to point out the actual correct information. Neither of you are doing that, which is just as bad as the other people doing it, regardless of which side of this subject they are on. I'd tell you to act like adults but I don't know how old either of you are, and your responses do make me question if you are adults to begin with, you certainly don't come across as adults, but that means little.

The rule is pretty easy to understand, don't run and hide to avoid death as the last man standing in Skirmish mode.

Engage the enemy, be it face to face in a suicide charge, shadowing them due to no weapons and giving your team a great show because the enemy doesn't notice you almost stepping on them, or use guerrilla tactics to spread them out and take them out 1 by 1, whatever tactic you want to use, so long as you ARE actually engaging the enemy and not hiding to run out the clock and avoid death.

Seriously, when an 8 year old girl says that hiding to avoid death and run out clock without any chance of winning is WRONG, how in all the hells can any of you say otherwise?

[Sjorpha]

To the OP: If you have a chance of forcing a tie rather than a loss then that obviously counts as active playing even if you hide. IMHO anything that affects your teams results in a positive way is participation.

Tie is better than loss, damage is better than no damage, getting another kill is better than surviving alone in a loss. So it all depends on the situation. Obviously if the choice is between tie and loss, if you have no weapons for example, then hiding is the appropriate action.

Suiciding is also acceptable in order to end a match.

What I don't like is stalling for no reason, what ever you are doing should have a purpose, and that purpose should not be only protecting your own K/D.

The worst example, and the only one I REALLY have a problem with, is when someone shuts down in a corner and disconnects on purpose to play another match and hopes that the disco mech in the first match isn't found.

This could easily be avoided by counting disconnects as dead for the purpose of winning, they should also give no rewards if you damage or kill them. These two changes would remove both the tedious search for the last disco, and improve the chances of reconnecting into a live mech when your game crashes. Very obvious fixes, I'm surprised they aren not implemented.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 February 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"if someone ELSE is giving false information and sowing confusion, the proper response is NOT to sow more confusion"

We are not. Again, the topic of this post, and several others like it, is: "stop griefing the last man for trying to fight it out"

You and yours want to derail these discussions into something about mysterious pilots (who I've never seen) who run off to hide and shutdown for the rest of the match. As if that justifies the behavior the OP is complaining about.


"Seriously, when an 8 year old girl says that hiding to avoid death and run out clock without any chance of winning is WRONG, how in all the hells can any of you say otherwise?"

How many more times do we have to tell you we agree that's wrong and its not what we are talking about? Its not the topic of this thread. Are you just stupid? I don't think so - I think you are using the "run out the clock" pilot as stalking horse to justify griefing players who won't die for your convenience when the match is 10-1. Else, why are you here still discussing it?

You want to discuss shut down pilots? Fine. Start your own thread. But don't clutter up this one and then complain about *other* people "sowing confusion".

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 15 February 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

As long as your still actively participating in the match you can do whatever you want. Giving the situation expand. You did nothing wrong. The Dire wolf should be the one reported for non participating common abused offense logging with a 100ton mech leaving the team 100ton short.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 15 February 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

Mystere and Fenris, if someone ELSE is giving false information and sowing confusion, the proper response is NOT to sow more confusion, it's to point out the actual correct information. Neither of you are doing that, which is just as bad as the other people doing it, regardless of which side of this subject they are on. I'd tell you to act like adults but I don't know how old either of you are, and your responses do make me question if you are adults to begin with, you certainly don't come across as adults, but that means little.

Is that an ad hominem I just saw there?

I'm done here.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Hellen Wheels]

Hellen Wheels, on 14 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

If one doesn't want to watch the rest of the match, no matter how it is being played, then just quit and play a different match. Yes, I know you might not have your precious that is still in the other match, but no one is wasting your time except yourself.

Bye.

[Ratpoison]

Kristov Kerensky, on 15 February 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

Seriously, when an 8 year old girl says that hiding to avoid death and run out clock without any chance of winning is WRONG, how in all the hells can any of you say otherwise?

8 year olds have the most well thought out and considerate opinions, guys, why can't you get that?!? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!111111

[Kristov Kerensky]

No Mystere, that was me pointing out how you and Fenris are coming across with your comments that sow confusion. PGI's response was clear on the subject, you two keep trying to make it unclear by using examples that are not violations of the rule THEN tossing in rule violating examples and saying it's not clear which is which. That's what children do..and lawyers, so you could both be lawyers for all I know, as I said, I don't know your ages, I can only go by what you've posted.

tortuousGoddess, on 15 February 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

8 year olds have the most well thought out and considerate opinions, guys, why can't you get that?!? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!111111

So something so easy and simple to comprehend that an 8 yr can see it blows your mind tortousGoddess? Color me unsurprised on that, considering you have made the same confusion rationalizations as others on this subject.

PGI's response was simple and clear. Last Man Standing in Skirmish isn't allowed to run away and hide to avoid death since you can't get a win that way.

That's it folks, it's pretty clear and easy to understand. Guerrilla tactics, frontal assault, suicide charge, shadowing them due to no weapons so you CAN be found if they just look around, those are all good, anyone threatening to report you for that, ignore them. If they report you, PGI will look at the log, see you WERE active and you are clear of any wrong doing. Anyone giving away your position, report them for team treason.

Hiding and shutting down to run down the clock, that's a no no in Skirmish, simple as that, PGI has said it, it's been repeatedly copied/pasted in these threads and people continue to argue about it. Don't like it, don't play Skirmish, it's the only PUG game mode this applies to. Get stuck in a Skirmish with a random PUG group, DC at the start of the drop, don't break the rule because YOU don't like the game mode, no one will report you for DCing at the start, too many of us have had our game crash at that point, we'll just figure you were the poor bastiche who got hit this time around and play on.

[Roadkill]

Kristov Kerensky, on 16 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Hiding and shutting down to run down the clock, that's a no no in Skirmish, simple as that, PGI has said it, it's been repeatedly copied/pasted in these threads and people continue to argue about it.

<citation needed>

I've never ever seen that copied and pasted. I've seen people claim that it is true, but mysteriously the link never shows up.

What I have seen is PGI's unequivocal and exceedingly clear statement that, provided you have engaged at some point during the match, you may in fact run off and shut down whenever and wherever you feel like it. As long as you have engaged at some point during the battle you are not in violation of the TOS.

[Skarlock]

So in Starcraft II, they had a similar problem that would show up every once in a while. Terran players can lift off some of their buildings from the ground and fly them around, and they aren't considered defeated until all of them have been destroyed, even if all of their troops are dead. In some cases, it was possible for a Terran player to force an opponent to make air units and scour every inch of the map with them to find the last terran buildings, which could be very time consuming as they could be spread out all over the place and they can move (slowly). Other races also had similar annoying ways to drag out a game involving building construction. It wasn't game breaking by any means, but it was annoying that an opponent who had no way of fighting back could prolong the game end by a huge amount through lame tactics.

The solution Blizzard came up with is simple. When a player has no worker producing bases on the ground, a timer starts counting. Once the timer is expired, the location of all of their remaining buildings is revealed to all players.

I think a similar solution, where the location of the powered down or otherwise hiding mech is revealed to all after say, 2 or 3 minutes of not giving or receiving combat damage once five minutes has passed into the match, would be the most elegant. It should only work in skirmish mode, since you can simply cap points or your opponents base to quickly end the game in other modes.

[HARDKOR]

Fenrisulvyn, on 14 February 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

"This is fine. If there had been 10 of them and 2 of you, not so much."

See, this is where we get into problems. I know you mean well, but if its 10v2, I should still get to play.

Sure, there is no way I will pull out win, but how am I ever going to get good enough to flip a 3v1 if you won't let me practice on the 10v2?

I won a 1 vs 15 in MW4 (there was respawn and that game had non-nerfed guns and it came out with a score in the 60's, but hey)

Anything is possible if you always shoot first, never miss, and you know how to kite better than Ben Franklin.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Roadkill, on 16 February 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

<citation needed>

I've never ever seen that copied and pasted. I've seen people claim that it is true, but mysteriously the link never shows up.

What I have seen is PGI's unequivocal and exceedingly clear statement that, provided you have engaged at some point during the match, you may in fact run off and shut down whenever and wherever you feel like it. As long as you have engaged at some point during the battle you are not in violation of the TOS.

Thread : Stop Reporting The Last Man Standing http://mwomercs.com/...80#entry4188380

post 387

There's one of them, if you search, you can find others, including one from Primus of ComStar.