43 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

First off, I'm not here to hate on lights. I love lights, they were my main rigs in Beta and I'm hoping to get back into them once I get my new gaming computer. I love speed, every rig I run has speed as a major component of their builds. So I don't care that lights can run 150km/h, I don't care they can circle my heavier mechs faster than my mech can turn and swing it's arms...it's fine, speed is part of the battlefield package for lights, it's part of their survival strategy, I get it...I lived and died by it for a long time. The last thing I'd want to do is hurt light numbers...but I also want to see a bit more skill and fore thought introduced into their use regarding speed.

Now I know that the idea of tripping and possibly even falling would set the internet on fire with all the flaming...so I want introduce it into my proposal. But I feel something needs to be done about the lack of risk involved in the use of speed. As it is now, fast mechs just run full throttle...it's either all out or stop, +125km/h or nothing. And it's done on all sorts of rough terrain and surfaces without concern or negative side-affects.

We are allowed to run at 150km/h over un-manicured terrain, without even looking where the mech is going and we glide over that craggly terrain like we aren't even interacting with the surface we are running on...I've literally watched a light mech sprint in reverse at nearly 100km/h on rough terrain, run up a hill and it was as if the mech was on a pre-planned route and operating on auto-pilot....it was totally un-intuitive, unrealistic, unbelievable and without skill or effort to pull off...just gas it and go, and hope you dont bump into a boulder or other obstacle that is essentially seen as a wall.

So my proposal and TL;DR:
Include speed limits to terrain types. No matter how fast your mech can go, over certain terrain types your max speed matches that terrain speed limit...this includes operating in reverse, which would 2/3 the speed limit. Terrains would have limits set at specific speeds...none of which need to be less than typical Assault speeds. So I'd expect see speed limits of 100, 90, and 80km/h. In extreme cases, 70 and maybe even 60km/h. Modules could provide some bonus to the speed limit.

Require the player be looking in the direction of travel to attain max speed over about 70-80km/h(this means no more circle jerking and running at flank speed without concern). If you are going to traverse rough terrain at break neck speeds, at least be required to look where you are going(either torso pointing within 45deg of the mech's movement vector or free-looking within 45deg). Mech max speed will be 75% of max If you aren't looking in your direction of travel.

All these speed limiters stack, so if you are on rough terrain and looking away at more than 45deg of your mech's vector, you'd get the terrain speed limit and the 75% penalty on top of that.

So now, high speeds would still be valuable characteristics for a mech, but the use of these high speeds would be situational and not just spammed blindly and without concern or consideration.

Edited by CocoaJin, 14 February 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Brody319]

but...I gotta go fast!

[FupDup]

I don't understand the imperitive to penalize players for using speed. There aren't any penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, so why should speed be any different? Having high armor and high firepower are not "situational," they are effective at all times on all maps in all situations, and can be "spammed blindly without concern" (quoting from the OP).


The only thing I would do is make agility be a statistic number based on mech tonnage and quirks rather than being based on engine size. That would help make large engines less of a no-brainer choice, to at least some extent.

Edited by FupDup, 13 February 2015 - 10:08 PM.

[CocoaJin]

FupDup, on 13 February 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I don't understand the imperitive to penalize players for using speed. There aren't any penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, so why should speed be any different? Having high armor and high firepower are not "situational," they are effective at all times on all maps in all situations, and can be "spammed blindly without concern" (quoting from the OP).


The only thing I would do is make agility be a statistic number based on mech tonnage and quirks rather than being based on engine size.

Everything is rated for max tonnage for the chassis...so there is no additional penalty to be had. Speed limits aren't chassis specific, it's engine to weight...so you can push a mech to god forsaken speeds in game, but require no additional skill to utilize it...or penalties/affects to counter-balance it.

As it is right now, the affects of speed are free, no extra heat, no concerns of the mech exceeding the terrains ability to handle the speed...so no traction lose, no slips, no falls...no structural concerns by over-stressing the mech, no lose in turning ability, etc.

Under natural laws, speed is never free...it always comes at a lose of some aspect of locomotion while utilizing it.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I run slow lights, they can be a fine adrenaline rush and can be rather effective with the proper mindset.

And making maps better? I'm all for it!

Various fluids found in-game are jokes right now, and I can live with difficulty running over pavement too.

Nevertheless, I'd also take a look at Mech Tree Efficiencies and how Engine size can significantly alter mobility profiles.

[CocoaJin]

Brody319, on 13 February 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

but...I gotta go fast!

By all means...just do while looking where you are going and not up and down rocky and rough inclines, or while transitioning from different surfaces or slopes.

I'm all for the 150km/h light, I'm a major campaigner for the Flea, but it as to be handled and used with care, skill and fore thought...and since we can't seem to stomach slips and falls, the only other option is auto-speed limits. Thus, simulating a reduction in speed below slip and fall velocities.

[FupDup]

CocoaJin, on 13 February 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

Everything is rated for max tonnage for the chassis...so there is no additional penalty to be had. Speed limits aren't chassis specific, it's engine to weight...so you can push a mech to god forsaken speeds in game, but require no additional skill to utilize it...or penalties/affects to counter-balance it.

As it is right now, the affects of speed are free, no extra heat, no concerns of the mech exceeding the terrains ability to handle the speed...so no traction lose, no slips, no falls...no structural concerns by over-stressing the mech, no lose in turning ability, etc.

Under natural laws, speed is never free...it always comes at a lose of some aspect of locomotion while utilizing it.

In order to get more speed, you generally have to choose a mech of lower weight, which in turn means less armor and less firepower (assuming all other factors are equal, ignoring things like quirks). Also, that bigger engine means less weight for other equipment as well.

I don't see any "additional skill" needed to carry 100% of my mech's armor limit instead of 90% or whatever. There also isn't anything like that if I slap on more guns. All this does is nerf mechs that rely on mobility (mediums, lights, some heavies) and do nothing to mechs that don't need that much mobility in the first place (heavies, assaults). And notice how the latter are already the most popular choices as it is...

You aren't thinking this through.

Edited by FupDup, 13 February 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[Aiden Skye]

I need a TLDR for your TLDR.

[Lordred]

Praetor Knight, on 13 February 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

I run slow lights, they can be a fine adrenaline rush and can be rather effective with the proper mindset.

And making maps better? I'm all for it!

Various fluids found in-game are jokes right now, and I can live with difficulty running over pavement too.

Nevertheless, I'd also take a look at Mech Tree Efficiencies and how Engine size can significantly alter mobility profiles.

I get told I am Evil when I discuss slowing down lights.

But I think engine rating caps should be re-considered, and speed tweak removed..

But I am sick.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Lordred, on 13 February 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

I get told I am Evil when I discuss slowing down lights.

But I think engine rating caps should be re-considered, and speed tweak removed..

But I am sick.

So, keep on keepin' on...

[Brody319]

when the average light pilot does this before they drop



I don't think nerfing is a good idea.

[Lordred]

Praetor Knight, on 13 February 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

So, keep on keepin' on...

The fastest Light I have are my Locusts, which all have the Default 160 rating engines.

I really wish Speedtweak was removed, or changed to bring mechs up to their correct speed, and further that engine ranges for all IS mechs were changed. (mostly down a little, up for a few)

Again, I am weird, if you wanna know about it Praetor, drop me a tell.

[Brody319]

Lordred, on 13 February 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

The fastest Light I have are my Locusts, which all have the Default 160 rating engines.

I really wish Speedtweak was removed, or changed to bring mechs up to their correct speed, and further that engine ranges for all IS mechs were changed. (mostly down a little, up for a few)

Again, I am weird, if you wanna know about it Praetor, drop me a tell.

the Commando can run just a few kph faster.

[Lordred]

Brody319, on 13 February 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

the Commando can run just a few kph faster.

The commando, does not in fact run faster, with its default 150 rating engine. (which mine has)

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Speed modifiers is yet another opportunity for PGI to make the game better. Arbitrary limits based on terrain type are not it, however.

Rather, tie dynamic precision reduction to throttle %. Running over 40% of max? You get a small degree of precision reduction applied dynamically to your weapons fire. The higher your real-time throttle is, the more deviation around your aim point you will incur. At 100% throttle, this could be upwards of a 5 degree deviation.

This same penalty could be applied also to heat levels over 30% of your maximum capacity, scaling up dynamically as you run hotter, and stacking with the throttle dpr.

If PGI really wants to get fancy, they could also add a gyro rating to every mech. This is where terrain type would matter. Give each mech a gyro capacity and a gyro refresh rate. As a mech moves over rough terrain, or pops its jump jets, or take impulse from enemy fire, or moves more than 40% of their max speed, or collides with an obstacle (terrain or other mech), it loses gyro capacity. If gyro capacity hits 0 before the refresh rate fills the bar again, then the mech falls over. This, of course, would require extremely careful balancing, but it would also open up all kinds of areas for pilot customization (replacement efficiencies for defunct/redundant efficiencies, upgrade paths for neurohelmets, etc.).

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 13 February 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I don't understand the imperitive to penalize players for using speed. There aren't any penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, so why should speed be any different?

Two words. Hit-reg.

We need to address the issue of PPFLD alphas and then globally nerf mech speed. Then the fast Lights will be less of a bullshit and the Atlases can actually tank shots better than them.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 February 2015 - 11:12 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Lordred, on 13 February 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

The commando, does not in fact run faster, with its default 150 rating engine. (which mine has)

Yeah, most people upgrade the engines tho. xl190 locust or bust

[CocoaJin]

FupDup, on 13 February 2015 - 10:14 PM, said:

In order to get more speed, you generally have to choose a mech of lower weight, which in turn means less armor and less firepower (assuming all other factors are equal, ignoring things like quirks). Also, that bigger engine means less weight for other equipment as well.

I don't see any "additional skill" needed to carry 100% of my mech's armor limit instead of 90% or whatever. There also isn't anything like that if I slap on more guns. All this does is nerf mechs that rely on mobility (mediums, lights, some heavies) and do nothing to mechs that don't need that much mobility in the first place (heavies, assaults). And notice how the latter are already the most popular choices as it is...

You aren't thinking this through.

Max armor changes nothing inherit to the chassis. Now if we were allowed to carry extra weight, above our chassis' resting, then we should certainly see some penalties.

But I'm not going to sit here and explain in detail the affects of high speed on a vehicle...I assume we all live in developed countries and have had a chance to understand the significance and negative trade offs of high speed...especially increasing the output and speed of a vehicle above it's intended design parameters, operating on rough terrain.

I assume we have all ran before, that at least some of us are athletic and have ventured out of our mom's basement. So we have a basic, user level understanding of kinesthetics, traction and traversing rough terrain and the complications of doing do at speed.

Put our understanding of operating vehicles, running and basic physics, and we get a basic, natural and intuitive foundation for my proposal.

At high speeds, it's highly likely that the ability of a vehicle, person or anthropomorphic vehicle can reach and sustain a speed that drastically exceeds its structure, traction system and/or the environment it's operating in/on(terrain), resulting in a lose of control, lose of stability and a reduction in maneuverability, agility and other movement based performance measures, such as turns(both rate and radius), breaking, etc.


Hanging armor on structure mounts was never intended to require skill, anymore than putting a pair of jeans on your ass would. No more than extra plates strapped on a tank, or sandbags on a personnel carrier. On the other hand, maneuver combat from naval ships, to aircrafts, chariots to tanks, Calvary to melee, has always been dependent on skill. They have relied on the operator to carefully utilize the double edge sword of pushing the limits of his vehicle/equipment. Too little and your opponent gets you, too much and your equipment gets you. Speed is part of this formula.

Edited by CocoaJin, 14 February 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[YueFei]

Getting stuck on random pebbles, pipes, and tree roots thanks to improperly-implemented hill-climb mechanics wasn't bad enough?

It already does take skill for a light mech pilot not to ram into things that slow him to a halt, or to get himself tripped up on and halted on random terrain outcroppings, or to fight up a hill only to realize it's not climbable.

The best light mech pilots might make it look easy and effortless to smoothly negotiate terrain at full speed, but don't give me that crap about it not taking skill.

To tack on to your athletic analogy, ever seen the way a free-runner or trail-runner handles the environment? You think that's not skill? Put your average joes into those scenarios and most of them will struggle to maintain even half speed going through it.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 13 February 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

Two words. Hit-reg.

We need to address the issue of PPFLD alphas and then globally nerf mech speed. Then the fast Lights will be less of a bullshit and the Atlases can actually tank shots better than them.

Isn't fixing hit registration the more logical choice, instead of messing with other things?