141 replies to this topic

[EvilCow]

Apparently the chosen direction is to tone down the best performers instead to bring up the others. The consequence should be that now TBR and SCR should be addressed.

Changing weapons would negatively affect also the other clan mechs so probably the best thing to do is to give negative quirks to specific mechs/pods instead and don't nerf the weapons even more.

For example the SCR-Prime arms could get a 10% more heat on lasers (per arm), the mech itself could get a 10% speed nerf, basically restricting it to its base speed after the speed tweak bonus.

Agility and torso twist should also be looked into, there is past experience in this, it is the way the Victor was "balanced" when it was still worth something. It suddenly disappeared so I imagine the same medicine could work for TBR and SCR. The killer machine K2 also saw similar torso movement limitations.

More ideas?

[Mordin Ashe]

You don't need nerfs. Even now when those two Mechs are Clan meta, I rarely see them making more than 5 of 12 Mechs in game. People other things. Now make the other things more viable (Adders, Summoners, Novas, Mist Lynxes... you know which Mechs I mean) and there will be even less SCRs and TBRs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I wish PGI would bring every mech to the sensitivity of the SCR, that mech handles like a dream, real smooth flowing movements and stuff. It doesnt have that drag my mouse across the mouse pad and move 2 inches feel like other mechs....

The Stalker trial? Dear god...that mech feels like im driving a Semi Truck without power steering.....

[Mechteric]

Pretty sure they've already stated they'd rather use positive perks than negative, so I don't see direct nerfs happening. Making other lesser mechs more able to compete with TBR/SCR is the better route.

[Adiuvo]

Buffing everything up to the level of those two is massive powercreep and will decrease TTK heavily. Copying another post I made on the subject:

Quote

You know what was considered a big alpha back then? 45, with 3 PPCs and a gauss, and the third PPC wasn't even fired with the other 2. You know what's a big alpha nowadays? 94, from a run of the mill Daishi and that Daishi can do that twice with free 30 damage gauss shots as it cools down. The average alpha back then was 30. The average alpha nowadays is 48ish. This didn't happen because of IS buffs, this happened because of clans and people still try to harp on about how there aren't any clan mechs that are overpowered, and how instead everything should be buffed to that state.

Regarding the problem clans specifically, Stormcrow needs some turn rate adjustments, and possibly heat adjustments per omnipod. TW needs turn rate adjustments and accel/decel changes, but keep the max speed the same. Daishi really just needs something to lower its heat cap when taking the prime arms. Those arms basically cause most of the issues. I'd also make changes to the S torsos so that there's actually a reason to take something else over them.

[KhanCipher]

How many times do we have to go over this, the SCR, HBR, and TBR are really good because they atleast have 3 of the following (or all 4, and most other clan mech only have 1-2 of the following going for them) Flexibility, Mobility, Speed, and Utility. Surprise, none of them really got to the top by specialization, but by being (all things considered) Swiss Army Knifes.

[AlphaToaster]

I would use a Nova over a Stormcrow if:
Nova got some kind of -heat generation for lasers in general, but hopefully for mediums mainly and if they reinforced the armor in the ST's to make up for the fact that they're very hard to shield.

I would use a Summoner over a Timberwolf if:
Summoner got some kind of boost to the JJ to make it even more agile, and if they increased the stock quirks that the Omni pods currently have from 10% to 20% by adding an additional 10% bonus to the specific weapons the stock loadout uses, the LBX/10, LRM15, and cerPPC. This would make the stock summoner fun again, and able to compete with so few weapons. The build only comes with a ton of ammo for each the LRM and LBX launcher leaving the mech with a single cerPPC for much of the match. Make it more nimble and fast firing and we'll see more of them.

I would take an Adder over a Mist Lynx or Kit Fox if:
Needs a decent cerPPC quirk or energy weapons in general and some internal structure added to the legs/arms to toughen it up a bit. It's not fast and it can't jump, so lets make it a little bit tankier. It's not right that the 35 ton clan light feels more fragile than the 30 tonner.

I like the Kit Fox as is, I feel it's well balanced. It could use some internal structure to the side torso's but it doesn't need much. I feel the quirks added to the Mist Lynx are in line with it's weight/role.

I don't know what quirks added to the Gargoyle would make me want to use them outside maybe -heat generation or perhaps a -20% LBX/20 CD since this seems to be one of the only mechs that can make use of that weapon.

[Andi Nagasia]

dont agree with these types of nerfs,
i feel that the only reason SCRs & TBRs seem so powerful is the number of them you see being used,
the more a mech is useful the more that mech will get used, the more its used the more people die from it,
the more people die from it the more those people see it as more of a threat,

IS vs Clan, 100 mechs vs 100 mechs,
lets assume IS has all manor of mixed mechs AS7 KGC TDR CAT SDH HBK FS9 RVN,
lets also assume Clan has mostly TBR and SCR(others present but in a lesser extent),
-
IS Final Scores show KGC getting 11% of kills, TDR getting 13% of kills, FS9 getting 9% of kills, (33% total),
but Clan Final Scores show TBR getting 32% of kills, SCR getting 27% of kills, (59% total)(26% more),
by this TBRs and SCRs seem over powered, but remember more people are fielding them,
-
another way to look at this is if you do a 4vs4 ISvsClan battle, (1SDH, 1GRF, 1HBK, 1CN9)vs(3SCR, 1NVA)
each SCR has 25% chance of dieing from each of the IS mechs, but each IS has 75% chance of dieing form a SCR,

[LordKnightFandragon]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 February 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

dont agree with these types of nerfs,
i feel that the only reason SCRs & TBRs seem so powerful is the number of them you see being used,
the more a mech is useful the more that mech will get used, the more its used the more people die from it,
the more people die from it the more those people see it as more of a threat,

IS vs Clan, 100 mechs vs 100 mechs,
lets assume IS has all manor of mixed mechs AS7 KGC TDR CAT SDH HBK FS9 RVN,
lets also assume Clan has mostly TBR and SCR(others present but in a lesser extent),
-
IS Final Scores show KGC getting 11% of kills, TDR getting 13% of kills, FS9 getting 9% of kills, (33% total),
but Clan Final Scores show TBR getting 32% of kills, SCR getting 27% of kills, (59% total)(26% more),
by this TBRs and SCRs seem over powered, but remember more people are fielding them,
-
another way to look at this is if you do a 4vs4 ISvsClan battle, (1SDH, 1GRF, 1HBK, 1CN9)vs(3SCR, 1NVA)
each SCR has 25% chance of dieing from each of the IS mechs, but each IS has 75% chance of dieing form a SCR,

Exactly....lets see the number of other Clan mechs fielded vs the number of SCR/TBR...its prolly 7/1....

[DONTOR]

It used to be that when a mech was considered the best it did get nerfed (Victors, Catapault K2s). Then the forums would explode, renouncing that mech, and pgi, and everything else.

I personally am thankfull that they are done nerfing mechs, it creates problems down the road. Buffing a bunch of other things makes the game a lil bit new and exciting each time. Rather han pooping on your favorite mech with nerfs...

[Joey Tankblaster]

A hitbox fix for the SCR is necessary. The deathcrow soaks up damage like an assault.

[kapusta11]

TBR and SCR are fine, it's the rest that suck.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Thats your logic? Timbers and Crows eat up IS mechs alive and you want to buff all other clan mechs? we should discuss something reasonable.

[kapusta11]

Joey Tankblaster, on 13 February 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

Thats your logic? Timbers and Crows eat up IS mechs alive and you want to buff all other clan mechs? we should discuss something reasonable.

Clan TECH is OP, I mean lasers and Gauss (you'll notice it when dual gauss capable heavies will be released), The TBR and SCR themselves are fine.

[Knight Magus]

In my experience when something is used a lot - it's usually because the other options suck. Also the clan players have the least amount of mechs to choose from and a ton of restrictions on top of that....yeah no wonder.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, setting a static Heat Cap would help. Then have external DHS be true dubs.

From there adjusting base weapon values to better match current armor would be the next thing to do.

Then reserve quirks for a case by case buff in relation to Hardpoint Counts.


Actually, I would not mind using quirks to replace our currently bland Mech Tree Efficiencies. This way quirks (which do make things more efficient) and module slots get unlocked for individual variants.

This shouldn't be too much work for the devs and allows for the reapplication of current work I hope.

[process]

Bring the other Clan mechs up to their level, then apply nerfs across the board as necessary, e.g., knock a point of damage off C-ER medium lasers or decrease their range.

[Karmen Baric]

Yes the Stormcrow and Timnberwolf must now be nerfed, heat penalties are a good start, to make them more comparable to the IS mechs in the same weight class which cannot compete with these two.

[LordKnightFandragon]

process, on 13 February 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Bring the other Clan mechs up to their level, then apply nerfs across the board as necessary, e.g., knock a point of damage off C-ER medium lasers or decrease their range.

Yeah, I would normalize Clan and IS range a little more.

ISML: 350m
CML: 450m

ISERPPC: 775m
CERPPC: 810m

Give Clans a slight edge, but nothing to amazing, then dial back the Clan beam times a little, maybe 0.15-0.25s slower overall. 1.25 beam time CLL....0.82 burn time CLPL....IS LPL is like 0.67.

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 February 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yeah, I would normalize Clan and IS range a little more.

ISML: 350m
CML: 450m

ISERPPC: 775m
CERPPC: 810m

Give Clans a slight edge, but nothing to amazing, then dial back the Clan beam times a little, maybe 0.15-0.25s slower overall. 1.25 beam time CLL....0.82 burn time CLPL....IS LPL is like 0.67.

Why would you nerf the IS ERPPC?