134 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Lotharian, on 16 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

IMHO -

Quirks are an admission of fault in building your mechs, a band-aid of sorts. The fact that you change them means you are even more at fault. Look, now this is definitely just my opinion but the fact you are still messing around with the stats of the original mechs you had since alpha testing pretty much means you have no direction and have no backbone to stand up and say this is how this mech is and that is that, deal with it.

I find it difficult to play this game anymore. This isn't the first time I felt this way, but I came back as it is the only offering. I build my mechs to work in the game you have provided, when I find one I like and tweak it over a couple days for optimum performance... then you change something that pretty much just wasted my time. There is no solid ground. Some say it is over powered, others say it is working but when you change it.... it means the game is broken.

Now there have been things that sucked, pop tart gauss with PPC insta death, lights with lag shield, flamers that were stronger than a AC20 (j/k lol) missiles that only hit center torso. These were bad things, things you never intended.... see this is my point. If you make something and it works as YOU intended DO NOT CHANGE it based on whiners, if you gave some people gold bars they would say they got gold bars that had scuff marks. The fact that everything changes all the time means you have no idea what works if you take 2 or 3 months off, and that should not be the case.

If you are going to use quirks... fine... set them and set them in stone, this bait and switch crud just needs to quit, stop destabilizing the game, and if having quirks makes people whine just take them out, honestly we do not need them anyway, you would of course have to fix the foundation meta then... yeah... not gonna happen, whatever.

I agree with you. One thing that bothers me a bit is that PGI has given us a plethora of mediocre Mechs at best. Then when they prove to be what they were designed as, the players want them to be the "Hotness" that the good Mechs were.
Jagers were only played by Hard Core Davions
Spiders were for speed freaks
Quickdraw... In 30 years I had seen one Quickdraw in a Official event.

[Lily from animove]

Mister D, on 17 February 2015 - 02:26 AM, said:

Just before the Clan mechs came out, the game was really starting to feel like the IS mechs were really starting to come together, I dunno.. it just felt like thing were in a really good place in terms of balance.

Do you? have you seen dragons before the clans? not really, some mechs were also dead before the clans.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I really wish PGI had gone the route of blowing open the many possible ways to further differentiate mechs instead of just going to quirks. Pre-quirks, the only differences between any two mechs are:
-Geometry and hitboxes
-Hardpoints
-Jump Jets
-Arm/Torso actuation speed and limits
-Arm/Hand actuators
-Turning speed
-Accel/Decel
-Max Engine
-Structure and max armor (but only if they're different tonnage)
-Minor differences in modules capacity
-Locked equipment (omnimechs only)

Why not expand into these categories:

-Sensors range
-Sensor detection arc (360 degree sensors, anyone?)
-Targeting speed
-Detection from enemy sensors (stealth?)
-Variation in structure and max armor between mechs of the same tonnage (instead of structure and armor quirks)
-Base heat capacity (Bigger mechs get larger capacity?)
-Base heat dissipation (Smaller mechs get faster dissipation?)
-Hardpoint-specific weapon quirks
-Insulation from external heat sources (like the Hellslinger's weird environmental heat quirk)

[Yosharian]

Lotharian, on 16 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

IMHO -

Quirks are an admission of fault in building your mechs, a band-aid of sorts. The fact that you change them means you are even more at fault. Look, now this is definitely just my opinion but the fact you are still messing around with the stats of the original mechs you had since alpha testing pretty much means you have no direction and have no backbone to stand up and say this is how this mech is and that is that, deal with it.

I find it difficult to play this game anymore. This isn't the first time I felt this way, but I came back as it is the only offering. I build my mechs to work in the game you have provided, when I find one I like and tweak it over a couple days for optimum performance... then you change something that pretty much just wasted my time. There is no solid ground. Some say it is over powered, others say it is working but when you change it.... it means the game is broken.

Now there have been things that sucked, pop tart gauss with PPC insta death, lights with lag shield, flamers that were stronger than a AC20 (j/k lol) missiles that only hit center torso. These were bad things, things you never intended.... see this is my point. If you make something and it works as YOU intended DO NOT CHANGE it based on whiners, if you gave some people gold bars they would say they got gold bars that had scuff marks. The fact that everything changes all the time means you have no idea what works if you take 2 or 3 months off, and that should not be the case.

If you are going to use quirks... fine... set them and set them in stone, this bait and switch crud just needs to quit, stop destabilizing the game, and if having quirks makes people whine just take them out, honestly we do not need them anyway, you would of course have to fix the foundation meta then... yeah... not gonna happen, whatever.

Quirks are a necessary evil of translating a table-top game that is balanced around 'battle value' to an arena multiplayer game where anyone can bring any mech they like (more or less).

Yes they have been ****** up hard in places (TBOLT 9S, WVR 6K, etc) but that's just the nature of multiplayer games, things are sometimes made too powerful and need to be reined in.

Most of the arguments against ghost heat and quirks are made from the perspective of 'MWO should be tabletop'. You're living in a dream world if you still think that.

And no I don't think MWO's system is perfect, but given the path they've taken (e.g. they could have taken the route of having reticle sway, especially at longer ranges, which could have negated the need for ghost heat) I think they are doing 'ok'.

Edited by Yosharian, 17 February 2015 - 02:44 AM.

[Lead Sponge]

Lotharian, on 16 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

IMHO -

Quirks are an admission of fault in building your mechs, a band-aid of sorts. The fact that you change them means you are even more at fault. Look, now this is definitely just my opinion but the fact you are still messing around with the stats of the original mechs you had since alpha testing pretty much means you have no direction and have no backbone to stand up and say this is how this mech is and that is that, deal with it.

I disgree with you. Translating a board game into a first person style game is a tricky thing. Things that work on a board game don't work with a simulator. They are just different game design environments. I find the quirks actually make it feel more like the board game. There were always mechs in the technical readouts that had specializations and quirks. Things like the Javalin being a little top heavy, or the Victor's AC/20 tended to jam easily because of the construction of the feed mechanism. I'm actually a little disappointed there isn't more of that in the game.

So, whlie quirks can definately be fine tuned, I really find the quirks make the battlemechs feel more like the game that I grew up with. If you haven't played the board game, then you really should. If you don't want to do the board game, then do MegaMek. And start with 3025 tech. Really kind of see the development of the setting from a rules perspective. It makes you appreciate all of it better.

Honestly though, I'm the guy who wants a game mode with perma-loss of weapons, gear, mechs and salvage. I want my AC/20 to jam if I've been firing it too much. I want my targeting computer to fail if the heat gets too high. So, I'm an odd dude. I want a Battletech RPG.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Lily from animove, on 17 February 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

Do you? have you seen dragons before the clans? not really, some mechs were also dead before the clans.

Quickdraw, Trebuchet, Dragon, still suck.
Nothing has changed, except that one dragon of the 3 is halfway useful now.

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 16 February 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Silly rabbit. Just tell me which baby mech of yours got nerfed into "uselessness"? From what I have seen, none of the quirk pass II mechs became unplayably bad.

Of course, those with quirk baby mentality might think otherwise.

Im pretty sure no mech in this game is really unplayable. Not "fitting in the meta" maybe, but not unplayable.

[Tombstoner]

Lotharian, on 16 February 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

Wow, no, I have had all mechs from the start, thanks for being d1cks. The fact that this game has changed so much that most of the mechs that I have loved at some point are useless now because of serious nerfs. If it works you whiners cry till its just as broken as your free to play trial mechs. Quirks, IMHO need to be solid before being released and this game is over 2 years old, this is not their first run Brody319. Nice try with the 9s, it was part of a package I bought long ago and a mech that I got for free on a event weekend. It amazes me that people are happy that stuff gets nerfed into nonfunction still... keep it up and enjoy the dwindling server population.

I hear what your saying.... However to make the corrections necessary would require 1.5 - 2 years additional development.
This game is all about the minimally viable product. That is why we got Ghost heat/qwerks, its easier to implement.

[MerryIguana]

Rebuilding 30+ mechs every 3 months is going to cause alot of player fatigue. My nest egg of cbills disapears every time the quirks change. Will we be refitting this many again in May? I really hope not.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Yeah, lets condemn 90% of IS mechs to be forever trash
Great idea

[Burktross]

Brody319, on 16 February 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Awesome it became a quit threat that means I can use my gif.

O-oh! My turn!

[Malckovich]

I for one am loving the quirks. I understand the need for balance and that it is a challenge and an ongoing process that will take many iterations. It makes the game feel alive and prevents it from getting stale. We finally have some variety on the battlefield. That is well worth the cbills spent tweaking mechs.

[Mad Strike]

Lotharian, on 16 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

IMHO -

Quirks are an admission of fault in building your mechs, a band-aid of sorts. The fact that you change them means you are even more at fault. Look, now this is definitely just my opinion but the fact you are still messing around with the stats of the original mechs you had since alpha testing pretty much means you have no direction and have no backbone to stand up and say this is how this mech is and that is that, deal with it.

I find it difficult to play this game anymore. This isn't the first time I felt this way, but I came back as it is the only offering. I build my mechs to work in the game you have provided, when I find one I like and tweak it over a couple days for optimum performance... then you change something that pretty much just wasted my time. There is no solid ground. Some say it is over powered, others say it is working but when you change it.... it means the game is broken.

Now there have been things that sucked, pop tart gauss with PPC insta death, lights with lag shield, flamers that were stronger than a AC20 (j/k lol) missiles that only hit center torso. These were bad things, things you never intended.... see this is my point. If you make something and it works as YOU intended DO NOT CHANGE it based on whiners, if you gave some people gold bars they would say they got gold bars that had scuff marks. The fact that everything changes all the time means you have no idea what works if you take 2 or 3 months off, and that should not be the case.

If you are going to use quirks... fine... set them and set them in stone, this bait and switch crud just needs to quit, stop destabilizing the game, and if having quirks makes people whine just take them out, honestly we do not need them anyway, you would of course have to fix the foundation meta then... yeah... not gonna happen, whatever.

well guess what Russ just said "Just finished quirk meeting-were going to start a new process where we try to get quirk additions/changes/revisions for 4-8 mechs per patch"
"We will also try to post them ahead of time to gather some feedback prior to implementation."

"Should have this process implemented in a March patch"

So......

Edited by strikebrch, 17 February 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mercules, on 17 February 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

Nope, that should be the case. How many online, monthly updated games have you played? I know in countless games things change. Diablo 3 where I am not even competing against other players in PVP frequently changes skills and even more important, items. "Angel Hair Braid? I've got like 3 of them and none of them work for any of my builds, so I am going to crunch them." few months later Blizzard puts out a patch, "Angel Hair Braid now has the Legendary Effect that "Punish gains the effect of every rune."" as I look at my Crusader built around blocking and the Punish skill and go, "DOH!"

That's so sad!

There's a reason you never sell mechs in this game. As far as quirks? Meh...there's a tangential argument that it's done for balance, but really it's to make mechs with poor hitboxes, that were nerfed, or sub-optimal tonnage more attractive in the eyes of the playerbase.

Yes, PGI makes money when they come out with NEW mechs...but they want all the OLD mechs to be attractive in the eyes of new players, too, even if they're just spending c-bills they earned with premium time.

The more mechs that gather dust, across the board, the less money PGI theoretically makes. Quirks bring some of those old builds back and act as a c-bill sink.

It's just business, get over it.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 February 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[Greenjulius]

I for one like the way the quirk passes have improved previous dusty mechs, bringing them back into the game. Who would have thought locusts would be picked up in such high numbers? CW weight limits had their hand, but the quirk passes made previously unusable mechs like the LCT-1V actually usable. The LCT-1E is soon to be one of the strongest sub 35 ton lights in the game, if not in the top 5 lights overall when in capable hands. (It already is deadly, even with current quirks)

The return of Dragons? I NEVER thought that would happen. But it did with the 1N. I see them all the time now.

I see the quirk passes as one of the best things that ever happened to this game. 6 months ago I would probably only be using clan mechs for serious purposes. Now there are many IS mechs that can sit firmly in the top 10.

Edited by Greenjulius, 17 February 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[mad kat]

Just because a particular mech has quirks it doesn't mean you HAVE to build to them. My Awesome 8Q has PPC quirks. I don't use any PPC's in it. My CN9-AL has LL quirks, I dont use Large lasers in at anymore. That being said my Wolverine 6R does use the AC5 quirks, same goes for my BJ-1DC. And my Huggin makes Full use of the SRM4 quirks.

Don't forget in lore the same weapon can be made by different manufacturers and hence can each have different characteristics for the.same class.

Edited by mad kat, 17 February 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[IG 88]

you guys down get it, the problem is the time line, 3050 is a bad year of IS, they get their ass KICK

try to balance that. that whole 3050 rule set is unbalance.

the problem came with the clan
no clan no problem

when it was only Is vs Is there was no balance issue like this.

any way nobody in the universe is/was/will be able to produce a prefect table top game transition to PC

its like PvP in DnD. it was never meant to be.

give the clan(terrorist)4 mech variant (light,medium,heavy,assault)
give the Is(counter-terrorist)4 mech variant (light,medium,heavy,assault)
give them both a selection of BALANCED weapons
you have a great game

give both faction thirty mech variant with that much weapon , you get a melting pot of unbalanced Mess

why you do you think game like hakken, exteel and alike all shut down...... money... because of balance issue.

this game is on a survival wheel, player come and go all the time, my friend list is always changing and never stable, 90% the player try the game during 1 or 2 month then there off to WoW/WoT.
off the 10% remaining 2% are cash whale (1000$ in the game per years)

Edited by IG 88, 17 February 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[Coolant]

Quirks absolutely should and are. They are new content, bring excitement to the game, and since we play the same boring maps and game modes - rinse and repeat - they brought a breath of fresh air.

[Lily from animove]

Mister D, on 17 February 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Quickdraw, Trebuchet, Dragon, still suck.
Nothing has changed, except that one dragon of the 3 is halfway useful now.

and so it just shows that quirkening is still needed and was never a wrong thing, except in a afew cases where it went wrong, which is just usual when something is supposed to get balanced. But that does not mean the entire method is wrong as many claim it to be.

[InspectorG]

Before quirks we had chassis where only one variant was viable, if that.

You want to go back to that?

Mechs that the only difference between loadouts was 1E?

So far, quirks is the only role 'warfare' mechs have aside from weight class.