166 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Thank you for hosting this thread, wanderer, hope we can make some progress here.

[Catamount]

Steiner just wants its southern rivals to have it out. Don't mind them

I think few would disagree that there's complaints to be had from anyone who's kept out of the primary fight that defines CW right now especially when one's only avenues for war are against one's interests and strengthen one's ultimate enemies.

Edited by Catamount, 19 February 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Onmyoudo]

Catamount, on 19 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

We are not interested in starting fights with our Liao allies. They have done nothing but act in good faith towards us at every step of the way.

Which Kurita also did, and look where that got us. A massive declaration of war document.

Catamount, on 19 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Davion is fundamentally incapable of offering any resistance to our forces at this point, making conflict moot except to planet-grab and have also acted in good faith which makes it hard to desire conflict with them.

So... you don't want conflict with Davion because they're weak, so you're just going to take their planets because they're weak? What? I am a little confused by this statement.

Catamount, on 19 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Steiner is on defense against the Clans, so that serves no long-term purpose and ties you up too much anyways.
Yeah, sure, we could organize fights with Liao here and there, but it's not a long-term avenue of gameplay, let alone one we could continuously go all in on because that's full-blown war that we don't want. We have pilots we can drop against, sure, but there's no one we have to go to war with, certainly no one that wouldn't undermine long-term goals, and since the Clans are our ultimate shared enemy here, and the biggest long-term threat, they're the only ones we'd care to go to war with.

Except for Kurita, evidently. So now that your last avenue of "people you want to go to war with" is cut off, what is Marik's next move?

Edited slightly for more diplomatic phrasing; forgot I was in the Liao thread.

Edited by Onmyoudo, 19 February 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[wanderer]

That's a point of view, but one I'd have to disagree with.

For Liao, we believe the primary fight lies against the Suns: After all, before the Clans had even dropped once, Davion had attacked and held half of our worlds.

I'm a Succession Wars-era (MPBT: EGA) veteran. I can remember seeing every single Liao world of note- dozens of them - being attacked at once by Davion forces, laughing as they swamped the defenses, over and over again.

Never again. That there is a second enemy coming only sharpens our resolve to destroy the first one before we have two rabid packs on our border, rather than one. Liao forces train for the next threat by assisting the FRR, but the clear and present danger is only a jump away from our border.

[Roadbeer]

Ahhh, MPBT, those were the days.

[Catamount]

Onmyoudo, on 19 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Which Kurita also did, and look where that got us. A massive declaration of war document.

So... you don't want conflict with Davion because they're weak, so you're just going to take their planets because they're weak? What? I am a little confused by this statement.

Except for Kurita, evidently. So now that your last avenue of "people you want to go to war with" is cut off, what is Marik's next move?

Edited slightly for more diplomatic phrasing; forgot I was in the Liao thread.

Kurita's "good faith" is precisely what's been in dispute here, though I'm inclined to agree with Socop about communication on that point. It broke down, and so relations did. It's at least my hope that the point here at the moment is to take steps to prevent a repeat of such a situation.

As for Davion they are not being subject to total war by us, or anything close. We're subject to a soft ceasefire, or toning down of hostilities, it remains in place, there is communication with them regarding our desire to take some of their worlds around Terra, algorithm cooperation provided, and they are tentatively, if somewhat-grumblingly, understanding for the time being. How that will move forward is outside of what I'm involved in. I have little to do with Marik-Davion relations.

Edited by Catamount, 19 February 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[PerfectDuck]

Kurita doesn't defend worlds. Kurita can't defend worlds. Kurita won't defend worlds. The clans take worlds and Kurita is not stopping them. On and on ad infinitum.

Is it a bad time to point out that when Itabaiana fell, Marik failed to defend that planet? When Hot Springs fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Kaesong fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Teniente fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Romulus fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Setubal fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Outer Volta fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Colmar fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Gunzberg fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Dawn fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Ridderkerk fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Eguilles fell, Marik failed to defend it. When Hyperion fell, Marik failed to defend it.

It's almost as if every Inner Sphere single faction has the ability to help defend worlds, but they are going down anyway. Huh. This must be one single faction's fault.

And they cite Kurita's failure to defend worlds as a reason Marik should attack Kurita.

[Roadbeer]

PerfectDuck, on 19 February 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

It's almost as if every Inner Sphere single faction has the ability to help defend worlds, but they are going down anyway. Huh. This must be one single faction's fault.

If nobody is coming to help you, I'd have to ask myself why.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadbeer, on 19 February 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

If nobody is coming to help you, I'd have to ask myself why.

Nonsense. This occurred when we were "friends" also, when Davion and Marik claimed they were throwing themselves to the defense of our border worlds, just to see the planets lost either way.

So, you either were there and failed, or have been lying about helping HK and getting nothing in return. Which is it?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 February 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[wanderer]

Apparently, Kurita was quite capable of defending Dieron. Is there a reason it's getting attacked?

[PerfectDuck]

The point is, if clans are taking worlds now, what's stopping them from taking more worlds in the future? You? You'll only defend against the clans if it sits right with your ego and the people of the dot's color worship you and lick your boots every time you send a single 12-man over? When we meet this condition, you are positive that not a single world will get taken again because you're more apt at doing this than Kurita are? The trend of Clans taking worlds will stop for good once we acknowledge that Marik are morally and skillfully superior to ourselves and once that happens you're going to use your superior might and hold up the rest of the Inner Sphere and stop the clans from coming? That's what it's sounding like.

Is it truly a Marik sentiment that if only all of the worlds in front of the clans were purple, they'd never get taken?

[Onmyoudo]

wanderer, on 19 February 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Apparently, Kurita was quite capable of defending Dieron. Is there a reason it's getting attacked?

Is a good question. There were 12 mans from at least 2 units active.

[wanderer]

So, Roadbeer.

Once is an accident, twice is deliberate.

Why were FWLM units actively trying to take Dieron? Yesterday, you wanted to wash your hands of the whole thing. Today, even Anders came out of mothballs to try to negotiate. Now, we've just had Kurita need to forcibly remove you from one world and keep large numbers of Marik regulars off another.

Explain yourself. And no, "I was mining tears for my ice sculpturing" is not an explanation.

[Ilithi Dragon]

So that we can avoid the inevitable trolling that has been extremely prevalent of late, and the emotional misreads that are so often inherent with forum discussions, I suggest that we have a diplomatic meeting on TeamSpeak server, where diplomats and representatives can discuss these issues with some maturity, without being interrupted or distracted by forumwarriors, etc., and so that there is no confusion about who is really speaking for each faction.

[pwnface]

wanderer, on 19 February 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Apparently, Kurita was quite capable of defending Dieron. Is there a reason it's getting attacked?

If Marik is so certain they are more capable of defending against the clans than House Kurita, why have they lost the battle for every single planet during the final moments of the wormhole closure? We are more than capable of fighting clanners when we chose to and certainly more than capable compared to Marik.

[PerfectDuck]

Roadbeer, on 19 February 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

If nobody is coming to help you, I'd have to ask myself why.

The best answer I can some up with is general indifference to the concern of the clan invasion since it's not exactly affecting the Marik faction. They'd rather sit around and deal with their own self-interested agenda such as the taking of Davion space than bother diverting any substantial amount of effort in defense of the clans. Apparently, the last time you tried defending Kuritan planets and demanded coddling, affection, reward money and worship for the heroic deed, you didn't get what you wanted thus lost interest in defending vs the clans.

The overall message I'm getting here from you Roadbeer is that you totally have all the ability in the world to stop the clans, but you'll only do it if everyone hails you for your greatness. That ability might have been useful over the past two months when the Inner Sphere lost several worlds to the clans. It's very strange to have the finger pointed our way with regard to negligence on account of defending clan worlds when you boastfully claim you can do better but simply refuse to.

[Catamount]

It also might help if we didn't try to forumwarrior here. That goes for both sides.

Tempers are running, largely because dedicated trolls are egging that on. We don't need to exacerbate that situation.

TS sounds great. It's just a matter of working things out. In the meantime, this is probably a good place and time if anyone has any serious questions or concerns to bring up in any such meeting.

Edited by Catamount, 19 February 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Crockdaddy]

Ilithi Dragon, on 19 February 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

So that we can avoid the inevitable trolling that has been extremely prevalent of late, and the emotional misreads that are so often inherent with forum discussions, I suggest that we have a diplomatic meeting on TeamSpeak server, where diplomats and representatives can discuss these issues with some maturity, without being interrupted or distracted by forumwarriors, etc., and so that there is no confusion about who is really speaking for each faction.

I have to say ... the internet arguing will get us no where.

[MahKraah]

wanderer , fwl is defending against us, reclaiming our worlds, with organiced companys since a week.
we did not complain because fighting is more fun than ghostdropping.
that fact forced us to divert more forces than plant to the wormhole but so be it.
since 2 days now they are massivly attacking to regain those planets with 36-60 organised 12 mans.
somehow they "forgot" to cancel our alliance bevore they did so.
they where not pleased with our actions vs the clans and retracted the mercsupport one week ago, we are fine with that, noone HAS to defend us.
with them on the offensive for the last days against us they saved 2 clanworlds and made us lose 1 world to the clans by activly draining our forces.
thats how they playout there role as protector of the is....
tbh i am pussled as there current decissions are archiving the exact opposit of what they founded the nsl for:
peace between the factions to free forces to fend off the clans.
while fwl are taking steiner and davion planets at reccord speed they practicaly declared war against kurita.
now compare there actions with the stated intend....

[Gorgo7]

Nice posting wanderer.
Good job.

Wormhole seems to be secure now.