166 replies to this topic

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

The wormhole is closed.

A cessation of hostilities should be forthcoming.

[Stoneblade]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Oooh, I want me those records. At this point, I don't think there's any online archive dump of the message boards (and sadly, none of the Liao BBS ones).

Remember the Great Jumping Invasion of Davion?

This guy.

I hate to say it, but Gaming sht that happened close to TWENTY years ago is like, " Hey, Remember that time in Grade school where I kicked you ass?"

This is Mechwarrior Online, it is not MPBT:3025, it is not the old MPlayer field. The skill set is different. I could go on and chant about, "Remember that time when the Map reset in 3025 because Liao was the Star League?" But I don't. Why? Because it assnine. Man up and be a Capellan. Stop being Toxic on the thread in our HOUSE.

[Alexander Steel]

ThomasMarik, on 18 February 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

What is Liaos stake in all of this?

Nobody likes it when Mommy and Daddy fight in front of them.

[SteelWarrior]

Zvolimir the Blackhand, on 20 February 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

The wormhole is closed.

A cessation of hostilities should be forthcoming.

You would think. Except now Davion and Marik are trying to carve a path through Steiner in order to get at us...

In before they send BWC and every other merc they can dig up over to Davion to start another offensive on us.

[wanderer]

Stepping a bit out from behind the mask,as it were here.

Quote

it is not the old MPlayer field. The skill set is different

And yet, you've got me and Gargoyle, decades later, on the same sides of the field.

Those who fail to learn from history will be condemned to repeat it. Frankly, if Kurita hadn't turned south (and basically ignored the Clans) and Marik bulked up, we'd have likely ended up the Davion punching bag. Again. Just on numbers. I'll be the first to say that without the other two states pressuring Davion, we'd be looking like the FRR right now. That happened around day 23, luckily. And if it wasn't for Marik (and everyone else) tossing their muscle into the FRR ring, we'd already have our first faction dead and gone.

Smaller factions live or die based on their alliances AND their ability to take someone down, or they're devoured by others. that's not just from MPBT lessons, but every PvP game I've been in- MPBT is just the most on-topic and relevant example, but I've had plenty of them.

Right now, Davion has no effective allies, only an appeasement "soft ceasefire" strategy with Marik as they leisurely swallow more planets, Kurita is attacking them, and we take smaller bites whenever distraction makes it possible. Were they not, we would be losing to Davion on weight of numbers if we tried it solo.

If you want Liao to survive, welcome to PvP. You kill off whoever's attacking you until they're no longer capable. Call that toxic, if you like. Now, we can be better victors than the MPBT crowd was- or eventually, you can sit on Sian and wonder where all the planets went - or, we can eventually become small enough and useless enough that Marik or Kurita will end up mercy-killing the faction before Davion did. Picture the social gentility of NKVD as they roflstomped their way to the Periphery unleashed on us instead of Davion. That's the reality of PvP. It gets ugly.

I have no intention on gloating (or being an utter mustache-twirling jerk) if we exterminate Davion, just a happy future in which Liao units are all doing Clan defenses because our borders are safe and stable, so we can help others instead. Until Davion no longer has a point of contact with Liao, that cannot happen. And I really don't think having Kurita/Marik do all the work and ending up a tiny pocket in a yellow-red sea is good either.

Thus, the crusading. We need to be scrappy and fierce enough to be a worthy ally versus a quick snack.

And for THAT to happen we need Marik and Kurita not threatening to kill each other or placing Liao into a situation where either one wants to kill US. That's part posturing (and yes propaganda over truth, including ANCIENT DAVION WAR CRIMES!!!one!elventy!!) and part effort and part sheer weight of numbers.

Ain't diplomacy a hoot?

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 19 February 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

I wish I could show you the ur-history of Davion in online Mechwarrior gaming. It would make the Kurita-Marik anger look like Hello Kitty Online, but alas GEnie's discussion boards are long since beyond even archival recovery.

The closest modern equivalent I could come up with is a smug version of Goonswarm as viewed through a nightmare filter that literally enjoyed paralyzing dozens of players paying by the hour out from being able to play- by taking every world in the faction. Over and over again, forcing map resets multiple times a month. They zerged before there WAS a Zerg, maintaining a 5:1 population vs. any enemy faction and ruthlessly applied their population advantage to obliterate any level of skill.

The response from Davion players at the time was "you should have joined a real faction, ha ha ha!" if you asked why.

Wasn't there for it. And to clarify, of liao had the population advantage they would have benched them, right?

SteelWarrior, on 20 February 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

No....your one crime was sending 50 times the numbers of defenders that Liao could stand to hold off by any shot in hell. Your victory was by numerical advantage lol. Liao was in the exact same position Kurita was at the start of CW, getting out dropped by overwhelming numbers. The only difference is Liao and Kurita never stopped fighting back, where as Davion has tossed up their hands and said GG. Havent seen you in a drop in weeks now Mischief

So when Kurita is ghost dropping Davion foot the last week or Kurita and liao are both dropping whatever we have queued +12 that is tactical but when we did it it was cheap? All that was cheap is that you couldn't. Every faction has done so at every opportunity since the game started. TCAF and APOC were the only liao units we didn't roll regularly with pugs and we still beat them regularly with other 12mans. Early on Davion was fielding close to 10 12mans a night. We won a lot more than we lost.

I've been training new people and going where directed by command. Not taking new players in trial mechs to the Kurita border. I did play a couple matches with NS last night; won one and lost one. Also my schedule moved earlier; we don't see you guys until after NA cf but I do run into NS in group queue.

Thorn Hallis, on 20 February 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

...by numbers.

So if ms comes to liao and Davion only fields 12 players OK your border the rest will go group queue or clan border. Got it. The daily ghost drops from liao and filling more units than we have on the liao border were accidents that won't happen again. Got it.

Same argument as saying Clanners should never take stormcrows or timber wolves. You would if you could. The only reason liao didn't bury the Davion border was that they couldn't. You pretend your pugs didn't get rolled by 12mans just like your 12mans rolled our pugs to sooth your egos. Okay. I get that. Numbers are an advantage liao uses just like Kurita and Davion and any group that has them. We just don't ***** about it. We may bemoan our recent population drop but we don't ***** at Liao about it. You had more people to put there.

Our crime was winning and bringing more people. You would have if you could have. It's silly to pretend otherwise.

[wanderer]

Quote

Wasn't there for it. And to clarify, of liao had the population advantage they would have benched them, right?

Nope! We'd likely have been the anger-filled center of a Davion-Marik sandwich, much like Davion ended up sandwiched between Liao and Kurita, crushing one and easily holding back the other. Even if we had, Marik had a significant size difference vs. Liao and it'd have taken a larger size difference to handle pressure in all directions. 6:1 or so.

I'm no hypocrite- big fish eat little fish, given the chance. And nothing teaches wary humility like repeated stomps.

Quote

So when Kurita is ghost dropping Davion foot the last week or Kurita and liao are both dropping whatever we have queued +12 that is tactical but when we did it it was cheap?

Cheap? It wasn't cheap when you did it, it was rational and ruthless and precisely what I'd do right back, given the opportunity. If you have an enemy, chew them up until they are no longer capable of being a threat. Demoralize them to make it easier. It's PvP. That's what you do, given the rules of CW.

I certainly don't pretend that our PUGs don't get rolled by 12-mans. Or that Clan forces should take inferior drop decks. Quite the opposite.

There is no crime. Davion was a viable threat to Kurita, Marik, and Liao- and it isn't crushed, eventually it will be a threat again.

[An Anime Princess]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Ain't diplomacy a hoot?

liao are chill and being the smallest faction makes you moe. i'd defend that

[Prophetic]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

I did play a couple matches with NS last night; won one and lost one.

To clarify. You did indeed beat a group of 2 NS in a pug group during CW. We had a great fight beating you with our 12.

For some reason we never seem to get u during NA primetime.

[LoklanZFG]

People still don't seem to understand the difference between winning on the map when one side has a numbers advantage, and winning consistently in the match when the numbers are an even 12v12. The former doesn't really bother me, it's how the game works and it has happened to HK, FRR, and Liao more than anyone. The latter is something Marik or Davion could never hope to achieve against HK, and that's why we never break and give up.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Nope! We'd likely have been the anger-filled center of a Davion-Marik sandwich, much like Davion ended up sandwiched between Liao and Kurita, crushing one and easily holding back the other. Even if we had, Marik had a significant size difference vs. Liao and it'd have taken a larger size difference to handle pressure in all directions. 6:1 or so.

I'm no hypocrite- big fish eat little fish, given the chance. And nothing teaches wary humility like repeated stomps.



Cheap? It wasn't cheap when you did it, it was rational and ruthless and precisely what I'd do right back, given the opportunity. If you have an enemy, chew them up until they are no longer capable of being a threat. Demoralize them to make it easier. It's PvP. That's what you do, given the rules of CW.

I certainly don't pretend that our PUGs don't get rolled by 12-mans. Or that Clan forces should take inferior drop decks. Quite the opposite.

There is no crime. Davion was a viable threat to Kurita, Marik, and Liao- and it isn't crushed, eventually it will be a threat again.

Everyone is a threat to everyone in that regard. Alliances can and do happen though. You've got hundreds of Davion worlds to go, at which point we still have a homeworld. At this point we're running at an even balance. If things progress as they have we'll be back to winning worlds again. At which point the consensus seems to be that we need to attack our hostile neighbors until they are driven into quitting. Clearly our other mistake was not doing so more aggressively out of the gate. Trading with marik was more fun so we largely ignored Liao and Kurita. If we'd just delayed Marik and ensured we took Liao/Kurita worlds non-stop every day then we'd be in a better place now.

Not sure that long run that's a logic that works though. Seems like inevitably all you do is create an environment where there is no 'end game'. You can't actually beat anyone completely.

LoklanZFG, on 20 February 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

People still don't seem to understand the difference between winning on the map when one side has a numbers advantage, and winning consistently in the match when the numbers are an even 12v12. The former doesn't really bother me, it's how the game works and it has happened to HK, FRR, and Liao more than anyone. The latter is something Marik or Davion could never hope to achieve against HK, and that's why we never break and give up.

Right now you mean. Actually except for NS I've consistently won against every Kurita unit I've dropped against; though I certainly haven't dropped against all of them.

One very myopic thing that happens is a form of confirmation bias. You drop with 12mans in the same group and you're good, and the other side only has 1 or 2 good teams and like 10 pug teams (effectively). So you win most the time. The 1 or 2 good teams on both sides see the same thing and assume everyone on their side does the same. Doesn't work that way.

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Everyone is a threat to everyone in that regard. Alliances can and do happen though. You've got hundreds of Davion worlds to go, at which point we still have a homeworld. At this point we're running at an even balance. If things progress as they have we'll be back to winning worlds again. At which point the consensus seems to be that we need to attack our hostile neighbors until they are driven into quitting. Clearly our other mistake was not doing so more aggressively out of the gate. Trading with marik was more fun so we largely ignored Liao and Kurita. If we'd just delayed Marik and ensured we took Liao/Kurita worlds non-stop every day then we'd be in a better place now.

Not sure that long run that's a logic that works though. Seems like inevitably all you do is create an environment where there is no 'end game'. You can't actually beat anyone completely.

At the point where you have no more planets you can lose, it's "end game"- you're stuck with a single attack vector and an enemy who at that point has conclusively proven they can overwhelm you.

And everyone can be a threat. However, being as you're Davion, you -are- a threat: a faction that has attacked and taken Liao worlds as a belligerent. Marik hasn't. Kurita hasn't. Heck, even now Kurita and Marik, for all the angry words haven't done that to each other, yet.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

At the point where you have no more planets you can lose, it's "end game"- you're stuck with a single attack vector and an enemy who at that point has conclusively proven they can overwhelm you.

And everyone can be a threat. However, being as you're Davion, you -are- a threat: a faction that has attacked and taken Liao worlds as a belligerent. Marik hasn't. Kurita hasn't. Heck, even now Kurita and Marik, for all the angry words haven't done that to each other, yet.

Everything comes down to opportunity. At this point Davion considers Marik an ally; we get along pretty well. That doesn't mean that if everything else in the game goes back to easy-peasy we won't fight. We have a ton of fun fighting each other. They're very cool and great sports, win or lose.

Davion would love to just ship Liao off to some other space. Fighting Liao is a fundamental waste of time for Davion - there is nothing to be gained, at all. A longer Marik border? Access to more periphery space? Half the attacks that played out against Liao happened because pugging the Clan border is terrible, Kurita was ghost drops and Marik was like 100+ deep on both sides and at the time that meant a long wait. So they attacked Liao.

Currently we're up to ~100 people, maybe 120, on primetime. Enough to rock Liaos world. Why should we?

There is never going to be a time where Davion isn't going to have enough people to fight Liao for the 4 or 5 consecutive months it would take to walk through Davion. Would never happen with Marik and Kurita is always going to have other neighbors to fight.

So that leaves us in a complete stalemate. Total annihilation isn't going to happen down south. Too many worlds, too many people, too little reason to pursue it. I bet you're already seeing a bit of a decline; fighting the same border all the time is just tiring. So people go fight the Clans.

Which sucks in its own way. Only real way to do it is to switch factions - which brutally punishes loyalists.

MEH I say. MEH.

[Catamount]

Kurita and Marik had a small, short-lived spat, nothing more. As far as Kurita's alleged invincibility, it's very interesting in light of their inability to ever lose that the Widows didn't lose a single match during the night we piled onto Athenry with our half unit with two brand new pilots and smattering of pugs, and when it was settling down but there was still some dropping on Dieron in the one drop I hopped on and took part in just before ceasefire, two Widows and a 313T ten man beat a PL 12 man. Okay, PL aren't loyalists, but then, is Kurita going to claim their mercs are so much less capable than their personally are? I saw nothing to indicate as much during the short time we fought.

Now I won't play the part of the fool who just reverses a silly statement by claiming Kurita was weak or ineffectual. They weren't. The Kuritans we faced were very capable, and as an aside also good natured and fun to drop against. Were they unbeatable? Absolutely not. They were just very good players. I do hope for the opportunity to drop against them again, preferably under more amicable circumstances.

Edited by Catamount, 20 February 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[hopterque]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

Right now you mean. Actually except for NS I've consistently won against every Kurita unit I've dropped against; though I certainly haven't dropped against all of them.

My first night of CW was us farming you and your group over and over again for like 3 hours, and I don't think an nkva majority group has ever lost to a group you've been in. But yeah, sure, you consistently won against us.

Edited by hopterque, 20 February 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

hopterque, on 20 February 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

My first night of CW was us farming you and your group over and over again for like 3 hours, and I don't think an nkva majority group has ever lost to a group you've been in. But yeah, sure, you consistently won against us.

I realize we all look the same to you but I haven't dropped 6 times against NKVA total, aside from some mixed units, like the mixed NKVA/NS/9th group I pugged with APOC and beat last night.

We zerged you out on Sulpher but that doesn't really count, got counter-zerged by you guys on Sulpher, in another we were defending Boreal and stomped you at the gate for the first 2 waves then you all ejected and TKed each other talking about how we would never understand the glorious tactics of dear coordinator, etc. Mostly we drop against NS at night and it's an 'educational experience'.

Given that I don't play for 3 hours at a go save for a couple rare examples, you're mistaking me for someone else. It's possible a couple members of my unit pugged it out for 3 hours after I left?

I got no issue copping to a loss. The only times I've beaten NS were in group queue or when they were in a pug group. Never beat NS in CW when they were in a 12man. The worst beatings I've taken have been 228, especially in the glory of the TDR 9S days attacking them on Boreal. Was like getting fed into a wood chipper.

Mostly I'm on in the day and I don't see you guys. Templars, sure. A lot of Kurita pugs now, which is fun. NKVA?

Maybe I should dress like a turret, more likely to get a date with you guys.

[An Anime Princess]

MischiefSC, on 21 February 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

We zerged you out on Sulpher but that doesn't really count, got counter-zerged by you guys on Sulpher, in another we were defending Boreal and stomped you at the gate for the first 2 waves then you all ejected and TKed each other talking about how we would never understand the glorious tactics of dear coordinator, etc.

i did a fair bit of dropping today (vs the clans even, believe it or not) as well as some davion drops and didn't run into any familiar names either. it's either the luck of the draw or conflicting timezones i guess.

[Alienized]

Marik always has issues.. because.. they are Marik?
they are born that way

[Abivard]

MischiefSC, on 21 February 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

I got no issue copping to a loss. The only times I've beaten NS were in group queue or when they were in a pug group. Never beat NS in CW when they were in a 12man. The worst beatings I've taken have been 228, especially in the glory of the TDR 9S days attacking them on Boreal. Was like getting fed into a wood chipper.

Sounds like Davion's TDR 9S's do not work as well as the other houses TDR-9S's, go figure.

Have you sent in a troubleshooting ticket to PGI to look into that?

[Kjudoon]

Alienized, on 21 February 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Marik always has issues.. because.. they are Marik?
they are born that way

Being awesome is an "issue"?