199 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Lily from animove, on 27 February 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's not about believing what they say, I am sure they try their best but somethign like 2 hours of a sample from the game are not adequate statistics. I sometimes believe that they just read the reasons for the statistical results wrong. because after a statsistic is someoen analysing it, and this may go wrong. I stills ee so many IS pilots in facepalming headshaking loadouts. Would they finally sue proper mechs statistics would look different. And this may be an issue when you balance the mid elo game because mid elo IS players such then the high elo game flips becaue high elo IS pilots know what they do and then they suddenly have stronger tools .

Such topics are extremely difficult because very small things can have big impact.

To be fair, I've seen just as many "what were they thinking" loadouts on clan mechs.

I hope Russ is not just looking at 2 hours worth of data, he needs weeks of it.

[krash27]

Lily from animove, on 27 February 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's not about believing what they say, I am sure they try their best but somethign like 2 hours of a sample from the game are not adequate statistics. I sometimes believe that they just read the reasons for the statistical results wrong. because after a statsistic is someoen analysing it, and this may go wrong. I stills ee so many IS pilots in facepalming headshaking loadouts. Would they finally sue proper mechs statistics would look different. And this may be an issue when you balance the mid elo game because mid elo IS players such then the high elo game flips becaue high elo IS pilots know what they do and then they suddenly have stronger tools .

Such topics are extremely difficult because very small things can have big impact.

So is it possible that your "gut feeling" and assumed statistics are incorrect also?
There are two sides to that coin.
Folks with just as high an ELO as yourself and higher disagree and have experimented to prove it as best as possible. That coupled with the devs support of the issue...
But yet we are supposed to trust your observations and gut feelings.
Sure would be nice to see some hard data to lay this bad boy to rest one way or the other instead of gut feelings etc.

[Lily from animove]

krash27, on 27 February 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

So is it possible that your "gut feeling" and assumed statistics are incorrect also?
There are two sides to that coin.
Folks with just as high an ELO as yourself and higher disagree and have experimented to prove it as best as possible. That coupled with the devs support of the issue...
But yet we are supposed to trust your observations and gut feelings.
Sure would be nice to see some hard data to lay this bad boy to rest one way or the other instead of gut feelings etc.

yes I trust this feelings because on every 3 IS scrbs I only see one clanscrub. and so the chance that is is causing the imbalance is very likely.

further IS gets a load of quirks. And what does this mean? IS is yet not using the mechs at their potential, they have constant changing mechstats and have first to figure out what after all this changes is how good, and if they have done this it takes quite like 20 or 30 matches to perfect a mech for a good player by knowing wher one which map is that spot and how to nearly perfect not exposose more emch than needed.
The IS is yet in experimental stage with their mechs which does of course influence the statistics. Would they give soem quirks to any clanmech, people would use it and test it, this already means they may drop it for a better mech for testing purposes while they try out this mech. that influences the stats negatively for the faction testing. But clanmechs have not gotten any adjustments jet so the experimental stage is not affcting their mechs.

let any mechs unchanged or two weeks and trakc stats for entirely 2 weeks after this then when everyone uses the emchs on a trained and optimised level ON BOTH sides, then you get somehwat more accurate stats. But as long as even the higher skilled IS players experiment with some new quirks the stats get heavily gimped. And this is not a feelign from the gut this is just how it is.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 February 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[GreyGhost]

krash27, on 27 February 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Sorry if you think I am snide, I think you are arrogant.
I personally believe what PGI has to say about the game they develop.
If you do not then that's your prerogative.
I understand they have plans to bring the clans in line so there must be an issue somewhere.

No more forum warrior here than you are, and I couldn't be bothered to look at your profile because I don't feel the need to conduct personal attacks on you.

Ever suppose maybe some of the devs just don't like the clans?

[Gyrok]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 27 February 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Definition of Kool-aid drinker right there.

I'm not basing my opinion on just what they're saying. I'm basing it off the observations I've made from the various leagues I'm playing in and by looking at my stats.

My best light? Firestarter, by a LONG shot.
My best medium? Stormcrow, by a LONG shot
My best heavy? Timberwolf, by not just a long shot but a hyperjump's distance.
My best assault? Dire wolf, yet again by a huge difference.

If you take my top 4 performers, the Summoner edges out the Firestarter. But even the Summoner doesn't come close to the Timbergod. So my top 4 performing mechs are all Clam mechs by a SIGNIFICANT margin. And you think that's balanced? Ask any other quality pilot what their top performers are and you'll probably get the same if not a very similar list.



I'd love real world physics. But this games balance is so ****** right now that's the last thing this game needs while the devs are floundering the weapon/mech balance.

My top 10 mechs by KDR from highest to lowest:

FS9-S
DWF - Prime
BLR-1S
SHD-2D2
WHK-A
HGN-732
HBR-Prime
TW-Prime
HGN-733C
RVN-3L

Looks pretty balanced to me...

You were saying...?

(If curious, next 2 are SCR-D then VTR-9S)

The top 3 are all separated by 0.04

Edited by Gyrok, 27 February 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gyrok, on 27 February 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

My top 10 mechs by KDR from highest to lowest:

FS9-S
DWF - Prime
BLR-1S
SHD-2D2
WHK-A
HGN-732
HBR-Prime
TW-Prime
HGN-733C
RVN-3L

Looks pretty balanced to me...

You were saying...?

(If curious, next 2 are SCR-D then VTR-9S)

The top 3 are all separated by 0.04

Mine are all separated from the rest by more than a whole point. You failed to prove anything.


EDIT:

My bad, it's a bit closer than one point.

FS9-A: 2.85 KDR next closest is MLX-P: 2.14 KDR
SCR-P: 3.04 KDR next closest is NVA-P: 2.38 KDR
TBR-P: 3.74 KDR next closest is SMN-P: 2.71 KDR
DWF-P: 2.90 KDR next closest is VTR9-DS: 2.72 KDR

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 27 February 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[krash27]

GreyGhost, on 27 February 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Ever suppose maybe some of the devs just don't like the clans?

No, but I do suppose that the devs like to make money and get paid so I can't imagine why they would
hamstring their own source of income. /shrug

Its been fun but without facts nothing will get resolved in this thread, to many opinions, perceptions and hyperbole.

[wanderer]

Quote

Protip: this isn't TT. It's not ever going to be TT. The sooner you understand that the sooner you'll be in a place to understand why this game is not balanced.

I'd point to many cases where MWO doesn't even try to get the "spirit" of TT- and suffers for it.

The heat system, and ghost heat specifically being the biggest one.

It's one thing to change and tweak a TT-style system to function in MWO, but when you clearly don't get why it exists and throw out the entire thing, it manages to mess with the entire game.

[Gyrok]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 27 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Mine are all separated from the rest by more than a whole point. You failed to prove anything.


EDIT:

My bad, it's a bit closer than one point.

FS9-A: 2.85 KDR next closest is MLX-P: 2.14 KDR
SCR-P: 3.04 KDR next closest is NVA-P: 2.38 KDR
TBR-P: 3.74 KDR next closest is SMN-P: 2.71 KDR
DWF-P: 2.90 KDR next closest is VTR9-DS: 2.72 KDR

See, my FS9-S, DWF-P, and BLR-1S are 2.50, 2.47, and 2.46

Then comes SHD-2D2 @ 2.30, WHK-A is 2.21, HGN-732 is 2.19, HBR-P is 2.18, TBR-P is 2.11, HGN 733C is 2.09, and RVN-3L is 2.01.

Next 2 are SCR-D @ 1.97 and VTR-9S @ 1.96

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

You're doing it wrong. Instead of KDR you need to look at damage done per match (damage done divided by matches played) if you want some kind of comparison by stats and even then they are corrupted because of the changes in meta.

Fact is that at the moment 3 (+ Hellbringer) clan mechs out perform every other mech in game. IS needs insane quirks to be competitive against them (late TDR 9S and WVR-6K, now stalker 4N without ghost heat up to 3 LL). Yeah about the Wubverine... bad mech elevated by superior dps up to 500 meters with low beam time. "fun to play" my ass, it was the most effective mech to that job. No mrbc drop without one. Still, if given the choice they would've been replaced by SCR.

So... Either buff IS mech alot or nerf the most powerful clan mechs. First option decreases TTK (that already is a bit too low) and latter makes scrub clanners mad. I'd choose the latter. Clan XL engine and DHS are so powerful, losing some eng heatsinks when losing side torso is not enough. We got wave 3 coming and most probably the clan light will make IS lights obsolete in comp play (unlimited RHOD).

So in the end the KDR means nothing. I can farm my kdr with a big group or playing solo q at a certain time. The problem lies in the weapon systems and heat.

[YCSLiesmith]

DaFrog, on 27 February 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

So your idea of mwo is point and shoot, irrelevant to the real world. Funny enough, in the real world, video games try to be as close to the real world as possible. If you refuse to see that, it means that you want MWO to be like DOOM and Duke Nukem.

It's not about table top rules, it's about emulating real world physics.

No videogame worth its salt has ever sacrificed fun for realism. Also DOOM is the best fps of all time so I dont really understand why you're acting like it is a bad thing to emulate it

Gyrok, on 27 February 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

My top 10 mechs by KDR from highest to lowest:

FS9-S
DWF - Prime
BLR-1S
SHD-2D2
WHK-A
HGN-732
HBR-Prime
TW-Prime
HGN-733C
RVN-3L

Looks pretty balanced to me...

You were saying...?

(If curious, next 2 are SCR-D then VTR-9S)

The top 3 are all separated by 0.04

the fact that you're an anchor tied around the neck of your team no matter what mech you're in doesn't mean that the mechs are balanced. you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

ugrakarma, on 27 February 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

You're doing it wrong. Instead of KDR you need to look at damage done per match (damage done divided by matches played) if you want some kind of comparison by stats and even then they are corrupted because of the changes in meta.

actually that won't help either, because he's got a sample size of one. To actually draw any useful conclusions you need access to a large portion of the player base, or a huge number of games, or preferably both. PGI has both. Russ says clans OP. I dont get why people continue to argue in the face of that.

[An Anime Princess]

haha, yeah, that bad game DooM that only idiots like *gets in the bus to go to elementary school, laughing all the way* what a bunch of noobs lmao

Edited by An Anime Princess, 27 February 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Kjudoon]

I always smirk when people say "Imbalance is in your head and doesn't really exist." Then you turn around and never see the top end players consistantly cleaning up house in a Commando, or Trebuchet, or Quickdraw or Awesome. Sure you have some people who specialize on these mechs and they do well, but they are far from what anyone would consider top end overall players (If we are generalizing here). If it weren't for quirks, we'd see even less of them.

No, there are good mechs, bad mechs and cheese mechs, and smart 'good' players always gravitate towards those chassis with the mathematical edge. All of those are easy to find, because they define the Meta of this game.

There will always be top chassis the same way there is always a worst chassis, and until you create real value in the form of role warfare, or equalize weapon types effectivness, not much in this manner is going to change.

[jeirhart]

Top two arguments for "Clan 'mechs OP"

-Top Tier Competitive teams bring them to tournaments so they must be the best!

They also bring FS9s, Grid Irons, Thunderbolts and a host of other IS 'mechs. Let us not assume that two 12v12 teams built and planned around a best of 5/3 series on pre-determined non-CW maps with pre-determined restrictions is exactly the same as a 48v48 on CW maps with different winning conditions in which the participants can be of widely different skill levels.

-X person in PGI said clans were winning 60% of their battles and they were OP

Have you been to the front lines of CW lately? Notice how the pilots in the Clans generally belong to units and a lot of them have founders tags? Lords, EmP, SJR, hell even my own unit has been around for three years. -MS- during their Clan visits has units that have been around just as long (SwK prime example). JFP is Falcon for lore reasons. The other four are quasi mercenary units who go back and forth but still win regardless which side border they are on. Clans are very unit dense and have a lot of older, more experienced 'mechs warriors per player than the Inner Sphere.

But these players do not only play on their team, they also occasionally join in pug drops and we can carry hard while we are there, tipping the balance from a potential IS win to a Clan win with help from a pilot or two.

But then again, the opposite is also true when experienced and skilled players who mainly play Clan join the IS.

If you wanna talk statistics here is something for the Inner Sphere to chew on:
The average skill level of a Clan pilot is greater than the average skill level of an IS pilot.

To those wanting to claim imbalance between 'mechs is only reason IS loses to Clans, you are missing the bigger equation.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

YCSLiesmith, on 27 February 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

actually that won't help either, because he's got a sample size of one. To actually draw any useful conclusions you need access to a large portion of the player base, or a huge number of games, or preferably both. PGI has both. Russ says clans OP. I dont get why people continue to argue in the face of that.

Like I said, they will be corrupt because of the changes in meta. PGI does have the tools to draw out statistics from a certain elo pool and overall during certain period of time. How they decide to use them is not up to us. However I hope there will be some balance in the end. Though being here since close beta I'll just adapt to whatever cus quite frankly lost my faith to their ability to balance the game.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

jeirhart, on 27 February 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Top two arguments for "Clan 'mechs OP"

-Top Tier Competitive teams bring them to tournaments so they must be the best!

They also bring FS9s, Grid Irons, Thunderbolts and a host of other IS 'mechs. Let us not assume that two 12v12 teams built and planned around a best of 5/3 series on pre-determined non-CW maps with pre-determined restrictions is exactly the same as a 48v48 on CW maps with different winning conditions in which the participants can be of widely different skill levels.

FS9 - Overkill quirks on MPL and SPL
Grid Iron - Overkill quirk on gauss rifle
Thunderbolt - Overkill quirks on ER PPC and MPL
Stalker - Brought to level

At the moment IS lights are superior to clan lights. Quirks brought some IS chassis to competitive level. And I mean some by overly done quirks when the problem lies in the weapon system. Like who the f brings ER PPC to a match unless it's a TDR? NO ONE. Is it the fault of the mech or the fault of a broken weapon system??

[BARBAR0SSA]

ugrakarma, on 27 February 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

You're doing it wrong. Instead of KDR you need to look at damage done per match (damage done divided by matches played) if you want some kind of comparison by stats and even then they are corrupted because of the changes in meta.

Fact is that at the moment 3 (+ Hellbringer) clan mechs out perform every other mech in game. IS needs insane quirks to be competitive against them (late TDR 9S and WVR-6K, now stalker 4N without ghost heat up to 3 LL). Yeah about the Wubverine... bad mech elevated by superior dps up to 500 meters with low beam time. "fun to play" my ass, it was the most effective mech to that job. No mrbc drop without one. Still, if given the choice they would've been replaced by SCR.

So... Either buff IS mech alot or nerf the most powerful clan mechs. First option decreases TTK (that already is a bit too low) and latter makes scrub clanners mad. I'd choose the latter. Clan XL engine and DHS are so powerful, losing some eng heatsinks when losing side torso is not enough. We got wave 3 coming and most probably the clan light will make IS lights obsolete in comp play (unlimited RHOD).

So in the end the KDR means nothing. I can farm my kdr with a big group or playing solo q at a certain time. The problem lies in the weapon systems and heat.

Damage is only from 12 v 12 matches
Completely useless for CW

If I bring 400 SRMs on a mech, my max potential damage is 800.
If I bring 2 ERPPCs my max potential is whatever the tonnage of the other team is.

I will unload the SRMs faster though.

CW can be a long battle.

[Strykewolf]

Why? Because it's like stepping out of the frying pan and into a ******* volcano. That's why.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

shad0w4life, on 27 February 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Damage is only from 12 v 12 matches
Completely useless for CW

If I bring 400 SRMs on a mech, my max potential damage is 800.
If I bring 2 ERPPCs my max potential is whatever the tonnage of the other team is.

I will unload the SRMs faster though.

CW can be a long battle.

Stating the obvious.

Edited by ugrakarma, 27 February 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[ThrashInc]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 22 February 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

Maybe you are not seeing the point.

Imagine there are 100 newbies and 100 experienced players.
Put 50 experienced 50 poor players in each side and it is solved.
See, the skill level of the players can easily be balanced, just distribute the poor and good players evenly.

The same thing about solo and unit players.
If there is a pool of say 100 unit players and 100 solos.
If there are 50 unit players and 50 solos in each side, it is solved.
The problem comes when one side or the other has majority unit players and the other side majority solo.

So you see the problem is not that there are new or weak players, or that some like to play units and some solo.
The problem is that these different types are not DISTRIBUTED evenly!

In other words, the DISTRIBUTION OF SKILFUL PLAYERS AND UNITS AMONG FACTIONS is the main problem, not that there are some skilful and some not. Or whether or not some like to play solo or in units.

Your argument is what Solo/Group MM does, and Solo/Group MM is ******* awful.