178 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

Zolaz, on 24 February 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Yo clammer, your tech is OP. PGI knows it is OP, you should know it is OP. Im sure you can find something else to QQ about now that you got the Thud nerfed.

Here we have a prime example as to why the IS struggles in CW. RPing, average joe skills, average or sub average IQ and the reasoning and logic of a... clam?

Cant even read the full thread, cant acknowledge valid and extremely blatant strengths of either faction and the reading comprehension of a preschooler who cant even understand the first post is a mockery of the "Clans are OP" posts we see every day.

Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeext.

[Karpundir]

All one has to do is look to fully unrestricted competitive environments to see which Mechs are best. The next season of RHoD is completely unrestricted when it comes to usage of chassis, as long as tonnage is conformed to.

My money is on seeing far more Clan Mechs over IS Mechs by virtually every team (except in light heavy drops... until the Arctic Cheetah lets loose). If those of you who truly believe that IS has the advantage, put your money where your mouth is. I'll be happy to take your bets money.

[Hydrocarbon]

Necromantion, on 22 February 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

3) Why do you get reduced burn-time on lasers that lets you use cover to better advantage?

Lets look into this. The C-ERLL does 11 DMG over 1.5 seconds, the IS ERLL does 9 DMG over 1.25 seconds. What is greater, 11/1.5 or 9/1.25? You're probably as bad at math as reasoning, so I will tell you the CLAN weapon puts out more damage per second it is exposed. In other words, if a C-ERLL is pulled behind a ridge at 1.25sec and burns the ground for 0.25sec, it will still have put more damage downrange than the IS weapon. Same result with the Medium & Small lasers and ERPPC's. Only the large IS Large & Large Pulse lasers have a clear advantage, since the Medium Pulse lasers are nearly equal.

Then lets look two examples with those 2 "OP" IS weapons. A) 2x ERML's have nearly the same range as an IS Large Laser, weigh 3 tons less & take up the same number of slots, and provides 35% more damage in the 1-second duation of an IS-LL beam. Hmm, maybe the Pulse is moar uberer: B.) 3x ERML's take up 3 slots (which is negated by the smaller DHS's) and do 11% more damage in the 0.67sec it takes to fire an IS-LP laser. If your frail Clan gonads can tough it out for just another half-second exposed you will do nearly 2x the damage!

I will concede that those examples give the clan mech much more heat, but you can do more than waste oxygen while you cool down. You can retreat, flank, hide, check your HUD/map to make plans, etc. That allows clanners to avoid brawling far easier. Those that don't should be playing tic-tac-toe or something.

Necromantion, on 22 February 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Good grief, our unit plays both IS and Clan and our win/loss is the same on both.

Sounds like your unit just sucks. When I was PUGing in the Clan CW, it was typical for the Clan PUG's to slaughter 12-man IS drops. I was doing better than the majority of IS players, and 2 of my mechs were STOCK TRIAL mechs! Now that I'm on the IS side, my unit will lose to clan PUG's as often as we do to 12-man IS groups. We also lose just as easy to the Zerg Rush as clanners, if not easier because we can't alpha legs right off nor do we have similar average range.

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 24 February 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Nori Silverrage]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Lets look into this. The C-ERLL does 11 DMG over 1.5 seconds, the IS ERLL does 9 DMG over 1.25 seconds. What is greater, 11/1.5 or 9/1.25? You're probably as bad at math as reasoning, so I will tell you the CLAN weapon puts out more damage per second it is exposed. In other words, if a C-ERLL is pulled behind a ridge at 1.25sec and burns the ground for 0.25sec, it will still have put more damage downrange than the IS weapon. Same result with the Medium & Small lasers and ERPPC's. Only the large IS Large & Large Pulse lasers have a clear advantage, since the Medium Pulse lasers are nearly equal.

But you aren't counting the fact that most mechs IS uses have laser duration bonuses... -15% to laser duration and heat is quite common..

QKD-4G fitting a ERLL gets 7 heat, 9 damage, 759 range, 1.1 burn time and a cycle time of 2.76 (not elited or moduled). That brings their damage per burn time to almost the same. Clans get two more damage, one less crit and ton for 3 more heat, and .4s (35%ish) more burn time.

[Necromantion]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Lets look into this. The C-ERLL does 11 DMG over 1.5 seconds, the IS ERLL does 9 DMG over 1.25 seconds. What is greater, 11/1.5 or 9/1.25? You're probably as bad at math as reasoning, so I will tell you the CLAN weapon puts out more damage per second it is exposed. In other words, if a C-ERLL is pulled behind a ridge at 1.25sec and burns the ground for 0.25sec, it will still have put more damage downrange than the IS weapon. Same result with the Medium & Small lasers and ERPPC's. Only the large IS Large & Large Pulse lasers have a clear advantage, since the Medium Pulse lasers are nearly equal.

Then lets look two examples with those 2 "OP" IS weapons. A) 2x ERML's have nearly the same range as an IS Large Laser, weigh 3 tons less & take up the same number of slots, and provides 35% more damage in the 1-second duation of an IS-LL beam. Hmm, maybe the Pulse is moar uberer: B.) 3x ERML's take up 3 slots (which is negated by the smaller DHS's) and do 11% more damage in the 0.67sec it takes to fire an IS-LP laser. If your frail Clan gonads can tough it out for just another half-second exposed you will do nearly 2x the damage!

I will concede that those examples give the clan mech much more heat, but you can do more than waste oxygen while you cool down. You can retreat, flank, hide, check your HUD/map to make plans, etc. That allows clanners to avoid brawling far easier. Those that don't should be playing tic-tac-toe or something.

Yet you forget about reduced cooldown and beam duration quirks for IS which Clans dont have which is where the big difference comes from combined with the reduced heat quirks as well. These quirks result in the ability to do more damage while using cover and alpha more often.

I do not need you to instruct me how to play this game, trust me. If you cannot factor in current IS quirks into your "logic" the ball stops there for me with viewing any post of yours as anything other than lopsided unrealistic and biased crying.

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Sounds like your unit just sucks. When I was PUGing in the Clan CW, it was typical for the Clan PUG's to slaughter 12-man IS drops. I was doing better than the majority of IS players, and 2 of my mechs were STOCK TRIAL mechs! Now that I'm on the IS side, my unit will lose to clan PUG's as often as we do to 12-man IS groups. We also lose just as easy to the Zerg Rush as clanners, if not easier because we can't alpha legs right off nor do we have similar average range.

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA yes we suck when were winning 95% or more of our matches and constantly rolling other 12 mans, you really are totally clueless. The majority of our experienced and competent players will pull 1500+ dmg as IS or Clan, the extremely talented will do 2000+ easily as well and that is using 1-2 mechs each game.

We have no issues defending IS zerg rushes other than as IS and even then it takes two waves of enemy lights to succeed.

Edited by Necromantion, 24 February 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[Gyrok]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Lets look into this. The C-ERLL does 11 DMG over 1.5 seconds, the IS ERLL does 9 DMG over 1.25 seconds. What is greater, 11/1.5 or 9/1.25? You're probably as bad at math as reasoning, so I will tell you the CLAN weapon puts out more damage per second it is exposed. In other words, if a C-ERLL is pulled behind a ridge at 1.25sec and burns the ground for 0.25sec, it will still have put more damage downrange than the IS weapon. Same result with the Medium & Small lasers and ERPPC's. Only the large IS Large & Large Pulse lasers have a clear advantage, since the Medium Pulse lasers are nearly equal.

Then lets look two examples with those 2 "OP" IS weapons. A) 2x ERML's have nearly the same range as an IS Large Laser, weigh 3 tons less & take up the same number of slots, and provides 35% more damage in the 1-second duation of an IS-LL beam. Hmm, maybe the Pulse is moar uberer: B.) 3x ERML's take up 3 slots (which is negated by the smaller DHS's) and do 11% more damage in the 0.67sec it takes to fire an IS-LP laser. If your frail Clan gonads can tough it out for just another half-second exposed you will do nearly 2x the damage!

I will concede that those examples give the clan mech much more heat, but you can do more than waste oxygen while you cool down. You can retreat, flank, hide, check your HUD/map to make plans, etc. That allows clanners to avoid brawling far easier. Those that don't should be playing tic-tac-toe or something.




Sounds like your unit just sucks. When I was PUGing in the Clan CW, it was typical for the Clan PUG's to slaughter 12-man IS drops. I was doing better than the majority of IS players, and 2 of my mechs were STOCK TRIAL mechs! Now that I'm on the IS side, my unit will lose to clan PUG's as often as we do to 12-man IS groups. We also lose just as easy to the Zerg Rush as clanners, if not easier because we can't alpha legs right off nor do we have similar average range.

IS ERLL = 7.2 MAX effective DPS (9/1.25)

CERLL = 7.33 MAX effective DPS (11/1.5)

Also, all it takes is a 3% burn time reduction on the IS ERLL to get the effective DPS during burn duration over the CERLL number...3%, Just FYI, Quirks do not come in 3s, they come in 5s, 10s, and 15s, and of course all the way to 50s. So, any mech with ANY quirks to IS ERLL at all, instantly make it better than the CERLL per tick.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Lets look into this. The C-ERLL does 11 DMG over 1.5 seconds, the IS ERLL does 9 DMG over 1.25 seconds. What is greater, 11/1.5 or 9/1.25? You're probably as bad at math as reasoning, so I will tell you the CLAN weapon puts out more damage per second it is exposed. In other words, if a C-ERLL is pulled behind a ridge at 1.25sec and burns the ground for 0.25sec, it will still have put more damage downrange than the IS weapon. Same result with the Medium & Small lasers and ERPPC's. Only the large IS Large & Large Pulse lasers have a clear advantage, since the Medium Pulse lasers are nearly equal.

Then lets look two examples with those 2 "OP" IS weapons. A) 2x ERML's have nearly the same range as an IS Large Laser, weigh 3 tons less & take up the same number of slots, and provides 35% more damage in the 1-second duation of an IS-LL beam. Hmm, maybe the Pulse is moar uberer: B.) 3x ERML's take up 3 slots (which is negated by the smaller DHS's) and do 11% more damage in the 0.67sec it takes to fire an IS-LP laser. If your frail Clan gonads can tough it out for just another half-second exposed you will do nearly 2x the damage!

I will concede that those examples give the clan mech much more heat, but you can do more than waste oxygen while you cool down. You can retreat, flank, hide, check your HUD/map to make plans, etc. That allows clanners to avoid brawling far easier. Those that don't should be playing tic-tac-toe or something.




Sounds like your unit just sucks. When I was PUGing in the Clan CW, it was typical for the Clan PUG's to slaughter 12-man IS drops. I was doing better than the majority of IS players, and 2 of my mechs were STOCK TRIAL mechs! Now that I'm on the IS side, my unit will lose to clan PUG's as often as we do to 12-man IS groups. We also lose just as easy to the Zerg Rush as clanners, if not easier because we can't alpha legs right off nor do we have similar average range.

You left out the massive range advantage 911M ISERLL with just a module, So now at 1000M who does more damage. Oh and don't forget the laser duration bonuses. I love how quirks completely get ignored when you want to talk about IS mechs. 5S & 6k have awesome LL heant, cooldown and burn duration quirks, they walk all over er MLs, who gives a crap about range in a peek-a-boo fight?!

If you're within 300M and want to ***** about clan lasers being OP, guess what, the 5SS will chew up any mech with its low heat barrage of MPLs.

Play the game from both sides and then comment, and don't even bring up 12 v 12, that's just a screw around mode that should not factor as heavily on balance as CW. I say this as a solo player.

[Gyrok]

Karpundir, on 24 February 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

All one has to do is look to fully unrestricted competitive environments to see which Mechs are best. The next season of RHoD is completely unrestricted when it comes to usage of chassis, as long as tonnage is conformed to.

My money is on seeing far more Clan Mechs over IS Mechs by virtually every team (except in light heavy drops... until the Arctic Cheetah lets loose). If those of you who truly believe that IS has the advantage, put your money where your mouth is. I'll be happy to take your bets money.

I can imagine it ends up being pretty evenly split...IS have better assaults and lights, and more viable mediums, generally, and Clans have (mostly) better heavies, and a single good medium.

[Hydrocarbon]

Nori Silverrage, on 24 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

But you aren't counting the fact that most mechs IS uses have laser duration bonuses... -15% to laser duration and heat is quite common..

QKD-4G fitting a ERLL gets 7 heat, 9 damage, 759 range, 1.1 burn time and a cycle time of 2.76 (not elited or moduled). That brings their damage per burn time to almost the same. Clans get two more damage, one less crit and ton for 3 more heat, and .4s (35%ish) more burn time.

Did I miss something? Did they add duration bonuses to EVERY IS MECH? If you want to open the "OMG quirks are OP" can of worms, be prepared for a bit problem. All it does is circles back to the fact they need them in the first place to have a snowball's chance in hell against the "average" clan build.

If you want to use a SINGLE VARIANT for the example, then you'll have to use a clan mech optimized for lasers for comparison. I'll just pull out the first thing that comes to mind. 25 f***ing c-DHS's, alpha of 61 DMG. It can fire everything at once, all have very similar range, all have IDENTICAL duration:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...357b4f453e5d716
https://www.mechspec...rml-1x-jj.6628/

If you want to compare IS laser vomit, look at the Stalker 4N which is quirked heavily for LL's and even gives you 10 tons of freedom. 4x LL's sound great, but you have to fire them staggered at least 0.5sec apart so there goes the duration argument. Heat? Well I calculate around 23 heat for 36 dmg vs 50 heat for 61 dmg, but if you factor in the 31% more heatsinks the Timber has it's more like 30 heat. That results in the Timber Wolf having a slight advantage in long-term heat, as well as an advantage in duration (1.15sec vs 1.5sec). I run both builds and I average higher numbers with the Timber Wolf because of alpha, heat, and mobility. How is that possible one may ask? According to clanners, it's a mixture of magic, bad skill, alignment of the planets, etc.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...999d8ff6ed4da9f




The fact is one can run lots of numbers all day long, but they're just numbers. It really comes down to what the average Joe can do with what mech, and this Joe finds clan tech to be the "Easy Button" when placed in my hands vs IS tech. One interesting thing about mechspecs & clan tech, they have a "1000+ [DMG] Club" threads for each mech. Guess what they had to do with the Dire Wolf? They had to add a "1500+ [DMG] Club" because there were more 1000+ members of any THREE IS Assault mechs combined.

Yet clanners continue saying IS is OP. Repeat a lie often enough...

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 24 February 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[Necromantion]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Did I miss something? Did they add duration bonuses to EVERY IS MECH? If you want to open the "OMG quirks are OP" can of worms, be prepared for a bit problem. All it does is circles back to the fact they need them in the first place to have a snowball's chance in hell against the "average" clan build.

If you want to use a SINGLE VARIANT for the example, then you'll have to use a clan mech optimized for lasers for comparison. I'll just pull out the first thing that comes to mind. 25 f***ing c-DHS's, alpha of 61 DMG. It can fire everything at once, all have very similar range, all have IDENTICAL duration:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...357b4f453e5d716
https://www.mechspec...rml-1x-jj.6628/

If you want to compare IS laser vomit, look at the Stalker 4N which is quirked heavily for LL's and even gives you 10 tons of freedom. 4x LL's sound great, but you have to fire them staggered at least 0.5sec apart so there goes the duration argument. Heat? Well I calculate around 23 heat for 36 dmg vs 50 heat for 61 dmg, but if you factor in the 31% more heatsinks the Timber has it's more like 30 heat. That results in the Timber Wolf having a slight advantage in long-term heat, as well as an advantage in duration (1.15sec vs 1.5sec). I run both builds and I average higher numbers with the Timber Wolf because of alpha, heat, and mobility. How is that possible one may ask? According to clanners, it's a mixture of magic, bad skill, alignment of the planets, etc.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...999d8ff6ed4da9f

Uhm, hasnt that always been the way with IS mechs even before clans? Mechs with desirable loadouts/hardpoints and now quirks are chosen before others? The only reason clans are different are due to the omnipods. But that is totally irrelevant to you because that goes against your side of the argument right?

The first problem with your build on the 4N is that youre using SRM's and AMS.... You load up on Heatsinks rather than anything other than lasers.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b85fed4bc6d453e
Oh look 56% Heat effc so you fire in pairs or 3 then 1 staggered.

Also if you have ever played the build you linked you would know that with 2LPL and 5ERMlas you can only alpha once on the hot or neutral map without overheating, twice on boreal if you have double basics. Otherwise you have to feather weapon groups in that build whereas with the stalker 4N you can alpha how many times before you overheat? 3-4 times.

8 seconds to overheat on the timber, 24 on the stalker. DURP

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

The fact is one can run lots of numbers all day long, but they're just numbers. It really comes down to what the average Joe can do with what mech, and this Joe finds clan tech to be the "Easy Button" when placed in my hands vs IS tech. One interesting thing about mechspecs & clan tech, they have a "1000+ [DMG] Club" threads for each mech. Guess what they had to do with the Dire Wolf? They had to add a "1500+ [DMG] Club" because there were more 1000+ members of any THREE IS Assault mechs combined.

Yet clanners continue saying IS is OP. Repeat a lie often enough...

Tell me how many direwolves you see on a successful clan CW team drop a night? Or even in a week? Nobody uses them because they are immobile and cannot respond to changes in tactics from the opposing team quickly enough. Are they a formidable fire-platform? Sure, in pug queue which is exactly what smurfies mechspec 1500+ pages are for. If you think playing a direwolf to 1500+ damage is easymode I would love to see you post some screenshots of you doing that, because i guarantee you will end up like 80% of the other direwolf pilots ive seen in pug and CW queues, made into lamp oil (get it whale?whale blubber? Lamp oil?)


Your posts make you look like an ignorant tool, you ignore facts right in front of your face and are too stupid to see that my initial post was to point out how stupid the "Clans are OP" posts that pop up every day are. If anyone feels there is a significant gap in advantages that either faction affords them they are atrocious players and extremely stupid.

Edited by Necromantion, 24 February 2015 - 05:57 PM.

[Gyrok]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Did I miss something? Did they add duration bonuses to EVERY IS MECH? If you want to open the "OMG quirks are OP" can of worms, be prepared for a bit problem. All it does is circles back to the fact they need them in the first place to have a snowball's chance in hell against the "average" clan build.

If you want to use a SINGLE VARIANT for the example, then you'll have to use a clan mech optimized for lasers for comparison. I'll just pull out the first thing that comes to mind. 25 f***ing c-DHS's, alpha of 61 DMG. It can fire everything at once, all have very similar range, all have IDENTICAL duration:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...357b4f453e5d716
https://www.mechspec...rml-1x-jj.6628/

If you want to compare IS laser vomit, look at the Stalker 4N which is quirked heavily for LL's and even gives you 10 tons of freedom. 4x LL's sound great, but you have to fire them staggered at least 0.5sec apart so there goes the duration argument. Heat? Well I calculate around 23 heat for 36 dmg vs 50 heat for 61 dmg, but if you factor in the 31% more heatsinks the Timber has it's more like 30 heat. That results in the Timber Wolf having a slight advantage in long-term heat, as well as an advantage in duration (1.15sec vs 1.5sec). I run both builds and I average higher numbers with the Timber Wolf because of alpha, heat, and mobility. How is that possible one may ask? According to clanners, it's a mixture of magic, bad skill, alignment of the planets, etc.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...999d8ff6ed4da9f




The fact is one can run lots of numbers all day long, but they're just numbers. It really comes down to what the average Joe can do with what mech, and this Joe finds clan tech to be the "Easy Button" when placed in my hands vs IS tech. One interesting thing about mechspecs & clan tech, they have a "1000+ [DMG] Club" threads for each mech. Guess what they had to do with the Dire Wolf? They had to add a "1500+ [DMG] Club" because there were more 1000+ members of any THREE IS Assault mechs combined.

Yet clanners continue saying IS is OP. Repeat a lie often enough...

The issue with your proposed "OP" build, is that it cannot alpha often. In fact, if you pull the last med, and alpha, you end up with a build that can alpha once on hot maps, twice on heat neutral maps (provided you bring, and burn, a cool shot after the first alpha), and barely twice on cold maps.

Now, where was that 61 alpha OP compared to a KGC with 2xGauss and 2xPPC? Which can be fired more often comparatively to greater range, with a 30 pt follow up right after?...

Edited by Gyrok, 24 February 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Void Angel]

Gyrok, on 24 February 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think a lot of the changes that have been made, or are being made, are coming from listening to the forums where people think clans are the devil and want them nerfed so hard that they are all looking up at a locust on a tier chart.

But that's not how it works! There's a process for making balance changes, and the "evidence" presented for the "Company X implemented Nerf W because Demographic Z complained" theories always amounts to a correlative fallacy. Players complained; a nerf was implemented; therefore, players complaining causes nerfs. I could use the same logic to claim that my alarm clock makes me tired in the morning.

Complaints do cause developers to look at various issues; but before a change is made, devs also look at demographic data collected from match results and game telemetry in order to decide whether a problem exists. Look at ECM - a favorite hobby horse of many to this day. I apologize that I cannot produce the post, but I recall an official post/blog on the topic where PGI said that they looked at ECM because of player complaints about it - and determined from their own analysis that the key component of the problem was that the Raven was too fracking hard to kill. Now, the state of Raven leg hitboxes, and ECM in general, are outside the scope of this discussion, but notice what happened: the developers used the forums to zero in on an issue, then implemented their own solution based on their own analysis of what and where the real problem was - despite the frothing, pants-wetting rage directed against them on the forums.

[Void Angel]

PS: You guys are not going to get anywhere arguing about theorycrafting numbers on Clan or Inner Sphere tech. Too much depends on factors which cannot be accounted for by simple math, like the effects of more time spent staring at a target, hardpoint placement and distribution, spreading damage by walking down the street, or obscene mobility for your weight class and firepower. The only way to find out how the Clans are really stacking up against the Inner Sphere is to analyze demographic data we don't have. We can do our own analyses, of course - but while these may be educated guesses, the fact remains that we must guess.

[Gyrok]

Void Angel, on 24 February 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

But that's not how it works! There's a process for making balance changes, and the "evidence" presented for the "Company X implemented Nerf W because Demographic Z complained" theories always amounts to a correlative fallacy. Players complained; a nerf was implemented; therefore, players complaining causes nerfs. I could use the same logic to claim that my alarm clock makes me tired in the morning.

Complaints do cause developers to look at various issues; but before a change is made, devs also look at demographic data collected from match results and game telemetry in order to decide whether a problem exists. Look at ECM - a favorite hobby horse of many to this day. I apologize that I cannot produce the post, but I recall an official post/blog on the topic where PGI said that they looked at ECM because of player complaints about it - and determined from their own analysis that the key component of the problem was that the Raven was too fracking hard to kill. Now, the state of Raven leg hitboxes, and ECM in general, are outside the scope of this discussion, but notice what happened: the developers used the forums to zero in on an issue, then implemented their own solution based on their own analysis of what and where the real problem was - despite the frothing, pants-wetting rage directed against them on the forums.

Sure, however, the complaining is getting old.

The last time Clans vs IS happened in the pub queue, the clans won 60% after being predicted to win 64% (i.e. they won less than expected based on elo disparity). The clans players, on average, had an elo skill advantage of 250 in their favor, meaning they were expected to win more than they lost.

Now, if they were expected to win 64%, but won 60%...I ask you as an objective individual...what does that say to you?

[Corbenik]

[Mcgral18]

Zolaz, on 24 February 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Yo clammer, your tech is OP. PGI knows it is OP, you should know it is OP. Im sure you can find something else to QQ about now that you got the Thud nerfed.

[Void Angel]

Gyrok, on 24 February 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

Sure, however, the complaining is getting old.

The last time Clans vs IS happened in the pub queue, the clans won 60% after being predicted to win 64% (i.e. they won less than expected based on elo disparity). The clans players, on average, had an elo skill advantage of 250 in their favor, meaning they were expected to win more than they lost.

Now, if they were expected to win 64%, but won 60%...I ask you as an objective individual...what does that say to you?

And yet that is still anectdotal. The only people who have demographic data sets are giving the Inner Sphere a tonnage advantage next month... what does that say to you? We can argue what it means if we like, but we're simply blundering around in a dark room.

The complaining, though? The bitter, acrimonious indictment of PGI, Clan players, Inner Sphere players, forum complainers, kittens, small children, and the kitchen sink? Yeah, I'm tired of it, too. Neither the "No, U!1!" rebuttals claiming the Inner Sphere is really stronger, or the "j00 R T3h H@XX0RZ, Clanner!" accusations that the Clans just don't want to admit to a clear advantage is borne out by the best data we have - that the people who actually have the data think a modest, 8% advantage is needed to bring the Inner Sphere up to parity.

Edit: screwed up a parody of semiliteracy - irony is a harsh mistress.

Edited by Void Angel, 25 February 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

range, effective range and damage. that's all i need to say.

[Lily from animove]

cmon, they are not that op, man up little tear teddy, or your tears even freeze bfore they hit the ground.

I just wish we get the balance process being speeded up. Because lets be real, TBR and SCR are masterrace mechs, and now PGItries to bring up the IS mechs to their level, ths means more stronger IS mechs, so for clanners change is coming they have to adapt. unfortunately this change will currently force to use more of our OP mechs while clannes have a lot undehive mechs. Clan gameplay suffers by being a lot more broing while the IS gets a lo buffed repolished shiny toys to play around with.

If you're within

Void Angel, on 24 February 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

And yet that is still anectdotal. The only people who have demographic data sets are giving the Inner Sphere a tonnage advantage next month... what does that say to you? We can argue what it means if we like, but we're simply blundering around in a dark room.

The complaining, though? The bitter, acrimonious indictment of PGI, Clan players, Inner Sphere players, forum complainers, kittens, small children, and the kitchen sink? Yeah, I'm tired of it, too. Neither the "You, U!1!" rebuttals claiming the Inner Sphere is really stronger, or the "j00 R T3h H@XX0RZ, Clanner!" accusations that the Clans just don't want to admit to a clear advantage is borne out by the best data we have - that the people who actually have the data think a modest, 8% advantage is needed to bring the Inner Sphere up to parity.

the issue is, the IS gets a tonnage advantage, yet are the is mechs worse or the IS?

when the average IS mech player has an elo of 400 while the average clanner has 450, it is to be expected that more clanners win. (there are reaons why IS has lesser skilled pilots, because more newbies) if you now buff the IS for the average player to be competitive against each other you have aproblematic result:

at the place where the top pilots have the same elo at the top, lets say : 1000 vs 1000 or even is IS is like 990 and Clanners like 1000. the improvement for the standard sally in its mech on the mechbase (by tonnage advantage) will horribly imbalance the top nothc game balance. And since CW is said to be the high competitive mode. I am not so sure if this is a good thing at all.

But honestly at this point such a change is an easy change and PGI can alter or revert it at any time by any give value. So Hey its not bad at all if they try playing around with this and se what the result is. Because without any trying around no improvement will ever happen.

What really screws the attemp to balance is butthurt driven balance feedback. If we want to improve the game for everyone, then everyone has to give objective feedback instead of trying to protect his very own interests and his very own toy of favour.

King Arthur IV, on 25 February 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

range, effective range and damage. that's all i need to say.

invalid, range is situational, and good pilots know how pilot their mech in the needed situation. yet heat is a rather fixed thing and you can only influence it to a specific degree. IS has more heat efficient mechs, clanners have more range. A difference - and when IS pilots finally would be able to see that their weapons are more heat efficient to work with this advantage, we do not need to wonder why they get buffed and buffed and overbuffed and get tonnage advantage. Work with your strength and you will already compete. or keep on losing and whining. But this will cause PGi to create uneccesasary fixes and will cause even more imbalance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 February 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Gyrok, on 24 February 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

Sure, however, the complaining is getting old.

The last time Clans vs IS happened in the pub queue, the clans won 60% after being predicted to win 64% (i.e. they won less than expected based on elo disparity). The clans players, on average, had an elo skill advantage of 250 in their favor, meaning they were expected to win more than they lost.

Now, if they were expected to win 64%, but won 60%...I ask you as an objective individual...what does that say to you?

60% win rate of Clan PUG vs PUG says to me that clans/IS are not balanced.
How in the world can you not see 60% is more than 50%.
Unbelievable you could ask the other guy where is his objectivity!

Clan would be whining day and night if they had a 40% win rate vs IS.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 25 February 2015 - 06:44 AM.