178 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

SuomiWarder, on 26 February 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

OP, not OP....to me it is not a matter of Over Powered but that one side has an Advantage over the other. As a long time b tech fan I accept that the Clan mechs in total are better. By which I mean that a group of them facing equal weight Is mechs of the same number will have slightly better survivability (roughly same armor points but XLs that don't blow) and can throw more damage downrange and farther than the IS ones. (Clan weapons weigh less and shoot father). Yes, there might be a tweaked IS mech here and there that can meet the range or be tougher (if it has a standard engine). But the game is not played one on one so comparing individual mechs is not of much import. Comparing the total firepower and survivability of a group is.

Well organized teams playing to the best meta can bring more firepower on target. Sometimes it might be a tech wash between a great IS team and only a good Clan team. But I really hate that the only chance IS has to win is to play in a narrow mech selection and tactical plan catered to the game's quirks rather than what might feel like natural tactics if BattleMechs were real.

How to fix the CW mess and make both sides feel competitive? Beats the heck out of me.

Once again there are things that IS mechs excel at that Clans dont and vice versa. Frankly some diversity between the two factions is what makes matches interesting and allows for variability.

There is no significant gap in ability for success as either faction assuming people have brains and bring appropriate builds that are good for the map and game mode they are playing as well as complement the other players they are playing with.

[Kain Demos]

Kiiyor, on 22 February 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well... I guess i'll bite. When I look at my stats page, my Clan mechs are far and away more lethal than anything in my 'Sphere mechbays. Order of magnitude. But that's just my experience.

You make many good points about the usability of 'Sphere weapons, yet most of the Clan weapon mechanics were introduced in an attempt to balance out their stupendous overall damage advantage. An attempt that has, in my experience, thus far failed. Quirks have helped the IS, but from what i've seen, they have only closed the gap somewhat, instead of bridging it completely.

The Clans certainly have some poor mechs and weapon systems, but those are irrelevant when they also have the three best mechs in the game, the best overall CW drop deck in the game, and the best overall damage delivery system in the game with Clan laser vomit.

The one true advantage the 'Sphere has over the Clans is with our light mechs. That's it.

As soon as the next mech pack is released, that advantage will in all likelihood disappear.

We have no medium that can truly compete with the StormCrow, and no heavy (or assault) that can compete with the MadCat. There are some that say the Crab can stand on even footing with a DireWolf, and they may be right, but I've never seen it pan out that way. Nothing stands in front of a MetaDire and wins. Thank god we have a few more weeks of breathing space in CW before you get your viable light, and Dires start becoming more prevalent in Clan dropdecks.

There really are many viable arguments here on both sides of the debate, but my favourite is one that you can see.

Open the game, click the faction button, and look at the CW map. If the 'Sphere was truly as competitive as you say, why is it that every single Clan has gouged out a day 1 FRR sized hole for themselves?

Meh. Soon, my contract will run out, and i'll be switching to the Clans as fast as my little fingers can click, and then my opinion will probably match yours, because i'll be enjoying my dominance.

I guess the fact that many IS factions enjoy fighting amongst themselves while all loyalist Clan units are 100% focused on Terra has nothing to do with that right?

[Gyrok]

Kain Thul, on 02 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I guess the fact that many IS factions enjoy fighting amongst themselves while all loyalist Clan units are 100% focused on Terra has nothing to do with that right?

Nah, could not be the infighting....

[Kiiyor]

Kain Thul, on 02 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I guess the fact that many IS factions enjoy fighting amongst themselves while all loyalist Clan units are 100% focused on Terra has nothing to do with that right?

I'd say it has something to do with it, but that it isn't a deciding factor - but I have no science to back that up, other than the map.

And we all remember CGB attacking the Wolves, right? Not all Clan units gather to sing Kumbaya before joining their trueborn hands and marching off to battle together.

[KraftySOT]

Man this guy is a winner...jesus christe.

[YCSLiesmith]

Tom Sawyer, on 23 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

The more of these threads I see the more I ponder.

Lets say in a perfect world you have 2 12 man teams each perfect in skill. One uses clan tech, the other IS. There is ZERO ping on both teams. There are no registration hit errors. A perfect server with perfect teams. Then perhaps I can call clan tech over powered.

Now real world. You have drops of pure skill vs pure pug. Sometimes you get a drop with a mix. Yada Yada. I have seen, played, won, and ROFMAO STOMP and been ROFLMAO STOMPED.

so you're saying when you've got a bad pilot in a great mech and when he loses against a better player it means his mech is not overpowered? I dont think you understand what OP means. Overpowered simply means you have an unreasonable advantage due to your loadout, not that you can always win. if I have a gun that does 100 damage and never overheats and you kill me from behind with flamers it doesn't mean that my gun isn't op and flamers arent garbage. it just means i suck at this game. I'm not sure why so many people who suck at this game can't handle that truth

Necromantion, on 23 February 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Clan tech does not always beat IS. Their AC's are utter garbage compared to IS. Also due to quirks Clan mechs run much hotter than most comprable IS builds.

Not complaining, but just like Tuku said the gap really isnt that significant and there are advantages and disadvantages to each faction

clan mechs have higher damage/heat ratios at longer range, actually. It's only up close that clanmechs begin to overheat slightly faster than IS mechs per damage point dealt.

Edited by YCSLiesmith, 02 March 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Eider]

Higher damage, better range, broken hitboxes.. if you are losing to is i got one simple step for you.
1.uninstall

[Gyrok]

Eider, on 02 March 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

Higher damage, better range, broken hitboxes.. if you are losing to is i got one simple step for you.
1.uninstall

No, that is true if you are losing to lower skill, since skill is OP. If you are losing to IS or Clans consistently, the answer to that one is:

"git gud"

[Kain Demos]

Kiiyor, on 02 March 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

I'd say it has something to do with it, but that it isn't a deciding factor - but I have no science to back that up, other than the map.

And we all remember CGB attacking the Wolves, right? Not all Clan units gather to sing Kumbaya before joining their trueborn hands and marching off to battle together.

That was just a momentary blip on the overall CW radar and most of the time we spent attacking Ghost Bear we had no IS attack lane anyway and it did not detract from the overall progress of the clans as a whole.

Writing off the current state of the CW map as "Clans 'mechs OP, Plz nerf PGI" is just an excuse. Yes, some minor skirmishing has taken place in clan space but the overall unity among the clan factions is a huge factor because there is virtually NONE in the IS.

Edited by Kain Thul, 02 March 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Necromantion]

Eider, on 02 March 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

Higher damage, better range, broken hitboxes.. if you are losing to is i got one simple step for you.
1.uninstall

The stormcrows hitbox isnt broken, it is just ergonomically designed to where if you torso twist it absorbs a ton of damage, however you havent read the rest of the thread where it is highlighted where the CT of the stormcrow is higher than the cockpit to where your ct is always exposed prior to having line of sight over the hill.

Damage comes at higher heat costs which results in more downtime and poorer brawling.

Range on some IS mechs are comparable if not better than Clans with their quirks.

Edited by Necromantion, 02 March 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

IS tech is OP because......... the pilots are better. (drops mic)

[Codeine Radick]

I love underpowering my mech.

Can i have single shell ballistics on my clan mechs now? No?

...hmmpf. Maybe one day.

Come along now, overpowered 5 shells of 4 damage burst gun. We must practice hitting a moving target 5 times in one burst while leading it and hitting that one component as opposed to all over the mech,trees and dirt behind it while using jump jets. I hate being overpowered. Makes me feel like i do not have to work for my kills.

Oh, Hey, when did that Dragon get a Clan AC?

[Rogue Jedi]

I have read most of the posts in this thread and people have made some good arguements, I agree that the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow are overpowered, but my Spiders have far better stats than my Dire Wolves and a Dire Wolf is highly vulnerable unless the team is suporting it, I cannot agree that the Dire Wolf is overpowered.

looking at my stats, the Timber Wolf has better stats than anything else but if we exclude that one clearly overpowered Mech my best IS Mechs are all equal or slightly better then my best Clan mechs in terms of KDR WLR, and average damage, my unit plays 1 week Clan to 4 weeks IS.

I only have about a 0.55 KDR and have never got more than 900 damage in a non CW drop so it could just be I am insufiscently skilled to make propper use of the Clan Mechs.

based on my stats and persional experiance I conclude that while the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow are overpowered if we were to remove those 2 Mechs (or limit them to at most 1 Timber Wolf OR Stormcrow from a CW dropdeck) Clan vs IS would be about even

[Wildstreak]

#1 reason the Clans are winning has nothing to do with balance issues. Balance issues about Mechs is a valid subject but not #1.

#1 reason the Clans are winning - stronger alliances.

You see less Clan vs Clan conflict than IS vs IS.
Every IS vs IS battle takes away form stopping the Clan advance. The only time the IS beat the Clans back was when #1 the IS had a breif moment of less IS vs IS battles and focused on attacking Clans plus #2 Wolf Clan seemed to suffer problems. During this time, Wolf lost territory both to IS then GB second probably caused by the first, all other Clans were slowed if not stalled though I believe SJ got stalled partly due to having nothing to attack for a bit.

Then IS vs IS picked up again and the Clans moved forward once more.

Must be why PGI is trying to recruit non-CW players like me for defense against the Clans and possibly sacking other IS Houses. We're not interested for various reasons.

Balance issues about Mechs is a separate subject and has less to do with who is winning in CW.

Typical BETA mentality by 'competitive' people, always find fault somewhere else, never with themselves.

IS should have a Medium with ECM in the Griffin-2N, it was mentioned to Russ on Twitter but no word.

[Gyrok]

Wildstreak, on 03 March 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

#1 reason the Clans are winning has nothing to do with balance issues. Balance issues about Mechs is a valid subject but not #1.

#1 reason the Clans are winning - stronger alliances.

You see less Clan vs Clan conflict than IS vs IS.
Every IS vs IS battle takes away form stopping the Clan advance. The only time the IS beat the Clans back was when #1 the IS had a breif moment of less IS vs IS battles and focused on attacking Clans plus #2 Wolf Clan seemed to suffer problems. During this time, Wolf lost territory both to IS then GB second probably caused by the first, all other Clans were slowed if not stalled though I believe SJ got stalled partly due to having nothing to attack for a bit.

Then IS vs IS picked up again and the Clans moved forward once more.

Must be why PGI is trying to recruit non-CW players like me for defense against the Clans and possibly sacking other IS Houses. We're not interested for various reasons.

Balance issues about Mechs is a separate subject and has less to do with who is winning in CW.

Typical BETA mentality by 'competitive' people, always find fault somewhere else, never with themselves.

IS should have a Medium with ECM in the Griffin-2N, it was mentioned to Russ on Twitter but no word.

He gets the idea...

[Wildstreak]

Gyrok, on 03 March 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

He gets the idea...

It got so bad, PGI tried to recruit me back into Davion it seems.

[Pragr]

Gyrok, on 25 February 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Read what it said about elo. Clans were predicted by elo to win 64% of matches based on skill gap alone, and only won 60%.

ggreadingcomprehension

I dislike to be a part of such thread because I consider it meaningless in general. As I posted in another thread and some other mentioned it here earlier, both sides has some minor pros and cons. The only major advantage for both sides is the XL engine fitted the central torso only on clan side. And even this is a real problem in Stormcrows case only.

But with all respect, your statement shows you have no idea about statistical data. There is something known as "statistical error". The statistical error in 60/40 scenario is about 4%. It's a bit of simplification but it means that if predicted percentage of win was 64%, any result between 60% and 68% is in compliance with expectation.

I have no idea what the 64% win ration is based on. It would be interesting to know actually. In fact the only relatively solid guess would be based on numbers of similar (or exactly the same at best) groups fights. It means hundreds or better thousands of pugs vs pugs and units vs units fights. More test fights is based on the lower the error would be.

[Gyrok]

Pragr, on 12 March 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

I dislike to be a part of such thread because I consider it meaningless in general. As I posted in another thread and some other mentioned it here earlier, both sides has some minor pros and cons. The only major advantage for both sides is the XL engine fitted the central torso only on clan side. And even this is a real problem in Stormcrows case only.

But with all respect, your statement shows you have no idea about statistical data. There is something known as "statistical error". The statistical error in 60/40 scenario is about 4%. It's a bit of simplification but it means that if predicted percentage of win was 64%, any result between 60% and 68% is in compliance with expectation.

I have no idea what the 64% win ration is based on. It would be interesting to know actually. In fact the only relatively solid guess would be based on numbers of similar (or exactly the same at best) groups fights. It means hundreds or better thousands of pugs vs pugs and units vs units fights. More test fights is based on the lower the error would be.

I am familiar with statistical margin of error. There would be some deviation/statistical inaccuracy; however, elo predictions are based on math from millions of matches since the introduction of elo. Meaning that the margins for error are likely very small already...

[sycocys]

Outside the never ending ecm debate/debacle...

When you can close the gap and force matches into brawls rather than pop out/pop tart alphas, IS does feel like it can most times have a pretty solid advantage. For CW with the current maps I would tend to give the advantage to the Clan mechs as they are designed for longer range combat without a lot of cover on most of them. - yep I know the gate pushes are closer quarters and can get brawly but before and after that point most of each map is designed around alpha pop/cooldown defense and attack. I'm not for or against this style, just not the one I prefer to play.

In standard drops though, unless one team magically gets a lot of ecm and the other get none I usually see the IS mechs come out on top as long as people push and play with some level of aggression. I'd even dare say some of the IS mediums are better equipped for brawling than the Direwolf.

So if I had to say there was a balance discrepancy, it would mostly lie in the maps more than the mechs at this point if you discount or consider a balanced amount of active ecm. If we start getting more brawl centered maps I'd bet you'll see the IS numbers pop back up. Still a lot, like some guys have mentioned, has to do with how teams play - if you are planning on winning a sniper war with clan mechs and not pushing them into some sort of brawling situation you will get toasted repeatedly.

Edited by sycocys, 12 March 2015 - 06:47 AM.

[COOL HANDS]

Necromantion, on 23 February 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Your unfailing faith in one site and its post being the definition of gameplay says a lot.

Let me guess, you have played only IS with average teams at best and think that your experience is the definition of the IS experience and want to use this site to validate that

Once again I and a lot of other players in merc units have played both factions 50/50 from the inception of CW and our win/loss record is no different from one faction to the other. Teamwork and competence are what matters and having the brains to bring the right loadouts for each game type and map. Altering your play to conform to quirks and optimize your play makes IS mechs more than competitive with Clans if not even certain builds to be even stronger than Clans.

Well the IS mechs are just as powerful as the clans isn't exactly manifesting itself out there on the faction map is it?