178 replies to this topic

[ThrashInc]

xxXKryotech OneXxx, on 12 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Well the IS mechs are just as powerful as the clans isn't exactly manifesting itself out there on the faction map is it?

If we assume that he is correct and that IS mechs are more than competitive with clan mechs, even stronger in some cases.

Then if we look at the map and say, "Why doesn't this represent the strength of the IS and their mechs"?

We can only assume that the players on the IS side are worse or are not taking advantage of these mechs.

[Carpenocturn]

Kiiyor, on 02 March 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

I'd say it has something to do with it, but that it isn't a deciding factor - but I have no science to back that up, other than the map.

The Map is not science

[Astrocanis]

Necromantion, on 24 February 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Yet you forget about reduced cooldown and beam duration quirks for IS which Clans dont have which is where the big difference comes from combined with the reduced heat quirks as well. These quirks result in the ability to do more damage while using cover and alpha more often.

I do not need you to instruct me how to play this game, trust me. If you cannot factor in current IS quirks into your "logic" the ball stops there for me with viewing any post of yours as anything other than lopsided unrealistic and biased crying.



AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA yes we suck when were winning 95% or more of our matches and constantly rolling other 12 mans, you really are totally clueless. The majority of our experienced and competent players will pull 1500+ dmg as IS or Clan, the extremely talented will do 2000+ easily as well and that is using 1-2 mechs each game.

We have no issues defending IS zerg rushes other than as IS and even then it takes two waves of enemy lights to succeed.

I know I'm impressed.

Really.

Is is inferior to Clan. By a lot? Sometimes. Clan loves to complain about "lack of variety " and "quirks make IS just as good (or better)". Let me ask a single question: If one IS laser / ER is as good as a clan laser, but clan can pack more of them into a chassis, who has the advantage?

If Clan Gauss (which of course, most of your I-only-live-in-tier-one-land mechs can only field one of) takes up less tonnage and leaves more tonnage for lasers than anything IS can field, which side has the advantage?

I can tell you that my ECM, 1xCGR, 5xCERML Hellbringer is better, ton for ton, than anything I can bring on the IS side. By a very large margin. I have NO IS mechs that can compete, ton for ton, or even +1 or -1 weight class, that can compete with my SCR or TBR. I hate assaults, so I'll leave those to my ~betters~. When the AC comes out, unless they completely screw up hit boxes (thank you Mad Dogs), they are going to make most yearn for the days of the Spider and Firestarter.

Argue "this individual weapon vs that individual weapon" till the cows come home. Ton for ton, very little compares to Clan tech. By a huge margin? Not really. But an 8% advantage across 12 men is pretty large.

[Kiiyor]

Carpenocturn, on 12 March 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

The Map is not science

True. The map isn't a theorem at all, it's more of an absolute.

[HARDKOR]

Personally, I like playing IS because there's more variety. I play both, to get max variety.

The difference in team skill levels is SO random that I don't really notice who has better tools, I just notice who played better.

[Gyrok]

sycocys, on 12 March 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

Outside the never ending ecm debate/debacle...

When you can close the gap and force matches into brawls rather than pop out/pop tart alphas, IS does feel like it can most times have a pretty solid advantage. For CW with the current maps I would tend to give the advantage to the Clan mechs as they are designed for longer range combat without a lot of cover on most of them. - yep I know the gate pushes are closer quarters and can get brawly but before and after that point most of each map is designed around alpha pop/cooldown defense and attack. I'm not for or against this style, just not the one I prefer to play.

In standard drops though, unless one team magically gets a lot of ecm and the other get none I usually see the IS mechs come out on top as long as people push and play with some level of aggression. I'd even dare say some of the IS mediums are better equipped for brawling than the Direwolf.

So if I had to say there was a balance discrepancy, it would mostly lie in the maps more than the mechs at this point if you discount or consider a balanced amount of active ecm. If we start getting more brawl centered maps I'd bet you'll see the IS numbers pop back up. Still a lot, like some guys have mentioned, has to do with how teams play - if you are planning on winning a sniper war with clan mechs and not pushing them into some sort of brawling situation you will get toasted repeatedly.

OMG! An IS player that understands, that is what...2...now?! In this very thread?!

Truth is OP. Spheroids could learn from this one.

[ThrashInc]

Well, all that said, I think the IS has some good mechs for trading at range.

The Stalker, Jager, Blackjack, Grid Iron, Thunderbolt, Raven all do annoying **** and are hard to counter as a Timberwolf, Stormcrow, or Hellbringer. The Hellbringer and Stormcrow have kind of high torso hardpoints, but not as nice as the IS mechs. The ERLL/LL duration is also shorter and the ERPPC's are cooler which isn't as important for sniping, but it does matter for Clan as you have to return to cover or you're going to take damage you can't dish back.

I really liked my IS drop deck, it has some great mechs. I would run them on the clan side if I could, no hesitation. I'd trade the Wolverine for a Stormcrow, but that's it.

Brawling is a completely different story. Our best brawling weapon is a Gauss rifle. The Dragon-1N is (in my opinion) more broken than the Thunderbolt-9S ever was - and I ran a Thunderbolt like it was the second coming.

Our best weapons are lasers, and they are hot with longer durations. We can boat a ton, sure, but that doesn't mean anything up close.

I'd take the Dire Wolf in a brawl but I don't drop a Dire Wolf and it being my preferred mech in a brawl has more to do with a 78 damage sustainable alpha than anything else.

[Pragr]

Gyrok, on 12 March 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

I am familiar with statistical margin of error. There would be some deviation/statistical inaccuracy; however, elo predictions are based on math from millions of matches since the introduction of elo. Meaning that the margins for error are likely very small already...

What I know, the elo rating looses its representative value if it is used for the same group of players play with each others on the same league/server. Which is exactly the case of MWO. I don't say it's totally inaccurate for our case but still I would considered the single digit accuracy as acceptable.

[BARBAR0SSA]

ThrashInc, on 12 March 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

If we assume that he is correct and that IS mechs are more than competitive with clan mechs, even stronger in some cases.

Then if we look at the map and say, "Why doesn't this represent the strength of the IS and their mechs"?

We can only assume that the players on the IS side are worse or are not taking advantage of these mechs.

IS players do not take advantage of them, a great majority of the time it's LRM boats!

teams that do play well though, smash through a clan team quite well. Instant the LL quirked IS mechs are within 600M, they are beyond lethal with the dps they can pump out. I've actually got in the habbit of keeping as much distance from stalker 4N's as I can. If I KNOW there is a 4N near another mech I won't push towards them...it's like knowing a UAC DW is around the corner.

On the fence if the 6k or 4n on a tonnage basis is best LL boat though, the 4 on a 6k with the decent speed and that burn time....fond memories of chewing up light mechs.

Edited by shad0w4life, 13 March 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Johnny Z]

shad0w4life, on 13 March 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

IS players do not take advantage of them, a great majority of the time it's LRM boats!

teams that do play well though, smash through a clan team quite well. Instant the LL quirked IS mechs are within 600M, they are beyond lethal with the dps they can pump out. I've actually got in the habbit of keeping as much distance from stalker 4N's as I can. If I KNOW there is a 4N near another mech I won't push towards them...it's like knowing a UAC DW is around the corner.

On the fence if the 6k or 4n on a tonnage basis is best LL boat though, the 4 on a 6k with the decent speed and that burn time....fond memories of chewing up light mechs.

Well I can understand worrying that the STK 4N is like the Direwolf since they both move around the same speed. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC DW though. Thanks for the info. Clan pilots really shed light on the mistake us Inner Sphere pilots on game balance, I guess it is because of the higher skill level of Clan pilots.

[HARDKOR]

Johnny Z, on 13 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well I can understand worrying that the STK 4N is like the Direwolf since they both move around the same speed. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC DW though. Thanks for the info. Clan pilots really shed light on the mistake us Inner Sphere pilots on game balance, I guess it is because of the higher skill level of Clan pilots.

Stalker 4 N can hit you with 5 sets of 3 LL in about 4 seconds and not overheat. It can also get 3-4 sets of three off while poking over a hill for about as long as it takes to get full burn on clan erll.

5 ERLL t-bolt beats timberwolf at range sniping.

Dragon or wolverine is best brawler.

Firestarter and raven are best lights.

Clans are best at being general purpose and homogeneous, which is OP,. Using teamwork as IS gets you the same results. Teamwork is still OP, it's just that clans give you that first step of teamwork(homogeneous builds and speeds) as a gimme.

[sdsnowbum]

HARDKOR, on 13 March 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Clans are best at being general purpose and homogeneous, which is OP,. Using teamwork as IS gets you the same results. Teamwork is still OP, it's just that clans give you that first step of teamwork(homogeneous builds and speeds) as a gimme.

Deathball is OP.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Johnny Z, on 13 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well I can understand worrying that the STK 4N is like the Direwolf since they both move around the same speed. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC DW though. Thanks for the info. Clan pilots really shed light on the mistake us Inner Sphere pilots on game balance, I guess it is because of the higher skill level of Clan pilots.

Stalker weighs 15 tonnes less... Also they do not move the same unless you have the stock STD 255 in the Stalker, the 6 LL build you can get a STD 310 in no issue and voila way better torso speeds, Stalker is 10KPH faster, if I recall earlier people were saying how much of a difference 20kph makes for making a mech more powerful so factor that in. Toss in that the DW can easily be killed by a fast mech no problem, not sure why you think the stalker is such a POS, go play it.

cUAC5's jam quite frequently as well. I've tried double shooting them with about 0.1s left on the cooldown and had them jam.

When you actually play the game and learn how it works, then start making your comments, currently every post you do is just absurdly wrong or a sad attempt at trolling.

[Johnny Z]

Like I said. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC Dire Wolf.

[Gyrok]

shad0w4life, on 13 March 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

IS players do not take advantage of them, a great majority of the time it's LRM boats!

teams that do play well though, smash through a clan team quite well. Instant the LL quirked IS mechs are within 600M, they are beyond lethal with the dps they can pump out. I've actually got in the habbit of keeping as much distance from stalker 4N's as I can. If I KNOW there is a 4N near another mech I won't push towards them...it's like knowing a UAC DW is around the corner.

On the fence if the 6k or 4n on a tonnage basis is best LL boat though, the 4 on a 6k with the decent speed and that burn time....fond memories of chewing up light mechs.

In a CW match last night, dropped against pubs and F i s s i o n was in with them. He ran 3 WVR 6Ks and 1 STK-4N.

He is playing clans because they are OP, right, like all the other guys who say clans are OP...

Wait, those are IS mechs?!? A top tier comp player from a team that professes to play only the most OP mechs in the game was playing quirked IS mechs, with quirked builds, while running with pubs, but clans are OP?

Ok...

[Gyrok]

Johnny Z, on 13 March 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Like I said. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC Dire Wolf.

Peek out on a STK 4N with that 6.5 sustained DPS at 600m+ with a 54 alpha with 0.9 second burn time.

You lose components when you do stupid things like that.

The UAC DW will not take a component off with the first volley...in fact, usually will not with the first 4-5 volleys because the 1.3 damage per shell volleys spread all over everything.

The STK-4N is the most OP assault in the game for the combination of mobility, high mounts, and massive sustained firepower with long range and pinpoint capability. You could maybe argue the Gauss + ERPPC DW is close, except it loses in all 3 categories...

Here is some interesting proof that Clan weapons have disadvantages no one knows or talks about:

http://raksarmory.bl...-pak-files.html

Edited by Gyrok, 13 March 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Johnny Z, on 13 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well I can understand worrying that the STK 4N is like the Direwolf since they both move around the same speed. I had no idea the STK 4N does as much damage as the UAC DW though. Thanks for the info. Clan pilots really shed light on the mistake us Inner Sphere pilots on game balance, I guess it is because of the higher skill level of Clan pilots.

The stalker is 12kph faster than the Direwhale, and the Dragon -1N can match a Direwolf in DPS, without overheating and without gun jams while running 89Kph Stalker 5S rocks a laser vommit timber's loadout, except that it has dual SRM4 and dual AMS, more armor, stalker damage socking etc.

Wolverine -6K and Enforcer -4R both out laser Stormcrow, the Enforcer saving 5 tons AND being a jumper, The AC20 packing mediums are all decent as well.

Thunderbolt -5SS, chops through Timberwolves you can littler center core a Timber from fresh before he gets a third shot. Or if you must poke froma million miles away er-LLAS on the -5SS is also pretty nasty.

But yes, you a LOT of "WTF" builds in IS pugs.

[Tezcatli]

Laser duration difference is .20-.25 of a second. With 2 additional points of damage that compensate for it. With 2 to 3 more heat, offset by smaller heatsinks, though not all Clan mechs have the tonnage to take advantage of that.

The Timberwolf has the firepower of an assault. And the Stormcrow the firepower of a heavy. They're both punching well above their weight class. They can hit farther than their IS counterparts. Have agility and speed commensurate with mechs of their class equipped with large engines.

[ThrashInc]

Firepower, yes. Cooling, no.

Laser duration difference is only .2-.25 (without checking which you're comparing) without quirks. The 4N is much, much faster.

I'd take the 4N in a clan dropdeck any day.

[pwnface]

HARDKOR, on 13 March 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Stalker 4 N can hit you with 5 sets of 3 LL in about 4 seconds and not overheat. It can also get 3-4 sets of three off while poking over a hill for about as long as it takes to get full burn on clan erll.

Let's not lie shall we?

STK-4N quirks give it 20% LL cooldown. This reduces the cooldown from 3.25 to 2.6 seconds. In order to not trigger ghost heat you must stagger your shots by 0.5 seconds.

Ergo, a 3/3 volley from a STK-4N takes 3.1 seconds given perfect timing.

C-ERLL beam duration is 1.5 seconds.

Additionally, 5 sets of 3 LL volleys would take 7.2 seconds from the first trigger pull to end of the last laser volley.

4 seconds does not equal 7.2 seconds.



This isn't to say that the STK-4N isn't a good mech, but please be factual when making claims about OPness

Edited by pwnface, 13 March 2015 - 04:24 PM.