196 replies to this topic

[Heisenbug]

I recently dropped back into a few CW matches to see the state of that part of the game, and wow, it sucks to be IS right now... reading through a bunch of posts, there's one point I don't see getting enough attention.

Among the various reasons that it sucks to play IS in CW (new players gravitate to IS, more IS pugs vs. clan premades, etc...) is that - IMHO - the clan drop decks have a profound advantage given the Hellbringer ECM.

Limiting ECM's to lights or a very slow assault mech created some interesting game dynamics. But allowing ECM in a 65 ton mech all but guarantees that many/most/all clan drop decks will have one (with the rest of the drop deck being bad-ass, no compromises necessary in order to bring ECM support), assuring that the clan side will have consistent ECM coverage.

So why is ECM so important? It unbalances the dynamics of the game. There's no such thing as combined arms when LRM's can't find a target. Newbs loose out on their one big crutch in not being able to LRM boat effectively (the one roll a newb can meaningfully contribute to). That actually applies to a lot of puggers too.

Hellbringer ECM isn't the sole reason that CW isn't working well at present, but it just terribly exacerbates every other problem. I'm probably overstating things, but I'd venture that disallowing ECM's on Hellbringers would address 40% of the dysfunction in CW right now.

Alright you people with 4 digits worth of posts, get busy explaining why I'm wrong... :)

[Yokaiko]

You think LRM are important?

[Heisenbug]

Yokaiko, on 24 February 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

You think LRM are important?

I assume people equip ECM for a reason. Your statement implies that there's too much ECM in the game presently, thus my point.

Remember a couple/three years back when the game used to have something like a "combined arms" dynamic?

Edited by Heisenbug, 24 February 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Heisenbug, on 24 February 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

I'd guess people equip and hide from them for a reason.

Yeah, and for the most part they are a non-factor.

I don't really worry about them other then relishing killing the guy annoying me with the alert.

[Devil Fox]

If you think Clans are OP because of the Hellbringer and not being able to spam LRM boats in CW... then wow...

Hellbringer's give Clans the option to bring ECM in a decent package... the Myst Lynx and Kitfox are both terrible CW mechs, particularly compared to the IS light's that bring ECM, can out snipe, out damage and have generous hitboxes to assist in long term survival. The clans excel in the heavy and medium department for CW, but that's about it, their assaults are either LRM boats or slow walking barn doors without much variety, their light's are slow easy kills, and half the builds are laser vomit or streak boats.

IS bring a wider variety of tools to the field, from fast killing light mechs with some dodgy hitboxes (yes you spiders and firestarters), to brawl based mediums and snipers that can dish out the damage, to the all purpose heavies and the myriad of assault mechs and their various builds/purposes on the field. Throw in quirks that drastically change how they play, the hitboxes, and the ability for them to out dps clan mechs... IS is anything but the underdog because of ECM Hellbringers.

All I see in IS dropdecks are Stalkers, Thunderbolts, Ravens, Spiders, Firestarters... then you start seeing the Battlemasters and Atlas LRM boats, the Guass Jagers... and I'm not gonna cover the range of medium mechs. If we're gonna say no ECM on the Hellbringer, then better give me my Clan Wave 3 now, remove ECM from the DDC, Spider, Commando. Because why should a Clan mech that comes with it stock have something that breaks the game when IS variants that don't have it stock get to use it...

Edited by Apostal Sinclair, 24 February 2015 - 01:29 AM.

[wanderer]

Yokaiko, on 24 February 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

You think LRM are important?

I think something that effectively blinds less experienced players and happens to kill one weapon type more important, honestly.

I like Hellbringers. I'll likely get one as soon as they're up for C-bills for public play, because they really are that nice. The Wave 3 will mean you can have ECM in 3/4 of the weight classes for Clan- and the one IS medium may as well be a light, plus zero heavies.

I know if they put in the Cataphract-0X I'd likely run it in every drop deck possible, simply because ECM is godlike and worth far more than the tonnage in terms of how much "weight" it adds to your effectiveness on a team.

[Apocryph0n]

Tbf, the interesting part about the Hellbringer is that it can trade without taking much return fire (good hardpoint location) while being significantly lighter than a timber. The ECM at this point is just a nice bonus.

On the other hand: Yes, the IS needs an ECM heavy, Wave III will give us a viable Light with ECM and one "okay" medium and having a decent heavy with ECM is a pretty nice thing to have in CW, no matter which side you are on, since Heavy Mechs are where it's at in CW. mostly.

[StUffz]

Marik complains about ECM on the Hellbringer but does not mention the Marik Zerg Rush with Spiders along with Firerstarters... ouch...

[Divine Retribution]

I don't think ECM should be removed from the Hellbringer. The IS does need an ECM-capable mech in the 55-75 ton range, which is not necessarily a heavy. The Cicada is basically a light; it really can't compete against other medium mechs. The DDC is a waste of drop deck tonnage. So it's either a light, lacking in sufficient firepower and durability, or it's a DDC, eating up drop deck tonnage plus low-mounted weapons.

The biggest advantage of ECM isn't stopping LRMs, it's that ECM makes it more difficult to focus fire(at least to me). When the team doesn't see red doritos, nice target designations, or even enemies on the minimap, all a team can do is call a chassis "Firing on the Timberwolf" and hope everyone shoots at the same Timberwolf in that pack of 5 Timberwolves. That many clan players bring the same 3 mechs only adds to the problem (a reason to quirk sub-par clan mechs). ECM simply makes it more difficult to be organized.

I'll toss in that the IS doesn't have a solid mech in the 70 - 75 (or even 80) ton range for CW, not since old meta became the new "not worth the effort". Quirks punished some mechs just as much as they rewarded others. But thanks to the 65 tonners (and 1 Dragon in the right circumstances), we at least have some solid heavies to build drop decks with. I hope PGI thinks about that for the next IS mech pack: A solid 70-75 ton heavy with ECM fills both of those IS needs.

Until then the we in the IS shall simply have to make do with what we have. I'm almost sure something great is in the works. How else would PGI get people to switch back to the IS after they bought clan wave III?

[Aethon]

Divine Retribution, on 24 February 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

I don't think ECM should be removed from the Hellbringer. The IS does need an ECM-capable mech in the 55-75 ton range, which is not necessarily a heavy. The Cicada is basically a light; it really can't compete against other medium mechs. The DDC is a waste of drop deck tonnage. So it's either a light, lacking in sufficient firepower and durability, or it's a DDC, eating up drop deck tonnage plus low-mounted weapons.

The biggest advantage of ECM isn't stopping LRMs, it's that ECM makes it more difficult to focus fire(at least to me). When the team doesn't see red doritos, nice target designations, or even enemies on the minimap, all a team can do is call a chassis "Firing on the Timberwolf" and hope everyone shoots at the same Timberwolf in that pack of 5 Timberwolves. That many clan players bring the same 3 mechs only adds to the problem (a reason to quirk sub-par clan mechs). ECM simply makes it more difficult to be organized.

I'll toss in that the IS doesn't have a solid mech in the 70 - 75 (or even 80) ton range for CW, not since old meta became the new "not worth the effort". Quirks punished some mechs just as much as they rewarded others. But thanks to the 65 tonners (and 1 Dragon in the right circumstances), we at least have some solid heavies to build drop decks with. I hope PGI thinks about that for the next IS mech pack: A solid 70-75 ton heavy with ECM fills both of those IS needs.

Until then the we in the IS shall simply have to make do with what we have. I'm almost sure something great is in the works. How else would PGI get people to switch back to the IS after they bought clan wave III?

Thank you for making my points on the ECM and Hellbringer for me; the only thing I can think of to add is that ECM does not seem to stop missile locks/tracking in CW anyway, the way it does in standard matches. Not sure if this is intentional or not.

[Curccu]

You are going to love time when we get Arctic Cheetah and Shadow Cat...

[Kmieciu]

Curccu, on 24 February 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

You are going to love time when we get Arctic Cheetah and Shadow Cat...

Arctic Cheetah is going to demolish Spider 5D. 6 energy hardpoints PLUS ECM? Along with Clan XL 240? Is your back ready for 6xCSPL alphas ? (36 damage, more than 8xSPL Firestarter)


How about a Cicada CDA-3M (4E 1B ) vs SHADOW CAT equipped with MASC, ECM, 2E+3M ? I can already see those 2xMPL+3xSSRM6 lighthunters.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 February 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

Heisenbug, on 24 February 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

I recently dropped back into a few CW matches to see the state of that part of the game, and wow, it sucks to be IS right now...

i'm sure all the merc units out there which switch sides from clan to IS all the time while being successful in BOTH worlds, would disagree you.

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Among the various reasons that it sucks to play IS in CW (new players gravitate to IS, more IS pugs vs. clan premades, etc...)

i must admit, i've experienced the same. at least to me it feels like IS is way more puggier. taking my previous note into consideration, i say that pugs vs groups sucks in CW. but it also would suck in standard que.

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Limiting ECM's to lights or a very slow assault mech created some interesting game dynamics.

oh yeah, i love it seeing the only ecm in a pug match running away sniping somewhere in the first second leaving the rest of the team to lurmaggeddon. awesome dynamics indeed (sorry, off topic, but i really had to say this!)

Quote

But allowing ECM in a 65 ton mech all but guarantees that many/most/all clan drop decks will have one (with the rest of the drop deck being bad-ass, no compromises necessary in order to bring ECM support), assuring that the clan side will have consistent ECM coverage.

seriously, this is more and more a thing about pugs vs groups. have you ever played with clan pugs? you have to ask for ecm before the drop every f***** match! and even then you're not sure that they will bring some. i found myself already dropping into my kitfox just so those pugs won't get lurmed to death instantly. preventing me from being effective in a 75 ton. i've seen a lot of clan decks without ecm. and those were always disorganized pugs. so if you see plenty of ecm on the other side, you dropping against a group pretty sure.

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So why is ECM so important? It unbalances the dynamics of the game. There's no such thing as combined arms when LRM's can't find a target.

it's not combined arms if the enemy team starts with eight lurmboats. and yes, once again: PUGS! i see lurm cats and lurm awesomes when dropping against them. well ok, those have quirks. but then i see every possible but unbelievable abomination of lurm loadouts. starting with centurions with lurms up to lurm huginns and lurm oxides!!! this is not sparta! this is MADNESS!!!!!!!! this shows totally abscence of weight class roles knowledge and piloting skills on the pug side. the only thing that pugs bring in CW are LURMS! so of course i will use something to counter that weapon. but when its the ONLY weapon, you opponent brings in, he is screwed! because lasers, gausses, ACs and ppcs and SRMs do NOT require target locks. instead aiming and piloting skills. those pugs can't find a target not because of the ecm but because they have ONLY LURMs. and that is why they horribly lose!

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Newbs loose out on their one big crutch in not being able to LRM boat effectively (the one roll a newb can meaningfully contribute to). That actually applies to a lot of puggers too.

so you propose to give them the cheese instead of actually helping them becoming better pilots?

Quote

I'm probably overstating things, but I'd venture that disallowing ECM's on Hellbringers would address 40% of the dysfunction in CW right now.

i seriously doubt this. lets say no ecms on hellbringers. so what? even MORE LURMs on the pug side? so the last three snipers and the two brawlers on the pug side would drop in lurm? and then? have two myst lynx dropping with 10 timberwolfes. and let them directly approach the lurm boats. ggclose! (like 48 to 4 kills)

Quote

Alright you people with 4 digits worth of posts, get busy explaining why I'm wrong...

i've done my best

Edited by ThisOneDiesALot, 24 February 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[pbiggz]

ECM was implemented oddly, but LRMs have sucked since way before ECM was even in game. Instead of trying to lurmboat, (which is the reason marik lost its wormhole and davion loses planets on a daily basis) why dont you learn to aim?

And it doesn't suck to be IS, it sucks to be a pug. Clan or IS, this is true. An IS team can easily defeat a clan team, and a clan team can easily defeat an IS team, it all depends on your use of teamwork, coordination, a tiny bit of planning, and patience.

Master your light mechs and start taking advantage of inner sphere quirks.

[PhoenixFire55]

Clueless crying noobs are a huge part of the problem ...

[YCSLiesmith]

Divine Retribution, on 24 February 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

I don't think ECM should be removed from the Hellbringer. The IS does need an ECM-capable mech in the 55-75 ton range, which is not necessarily a heavy. The Cicada is basically a light; it really can't compete against other medium mechs. The DDC is a waste of drop deck tonnage. So it's either a light, lacking in sufficient firepower and durability, or it's a DDC, eating up drop deck tonnage plus low-mounted weapons.

The biggest advantage of ECM isn't stopping LRMs, it's that ECM makes it more difficult to focus fire(at least to me). When the team doesn't see red doritos, nice target designations, or even enemies on the minimap, all a team can do is call a chassis "Firing on the Timberwolf" and hope everyone shoots at the same Timberwolf in that pack of 5 Timberwolves. That many clan players bring the same 3 mechs only adds to the problem (a reason to quirk sub-par clan mechs). ECM simply makes it more difficult to be organized.

I'll toss in that the IS doesn't have a solid mech in the 70 - 75 (or even 80) ton range for CW, not since old meta became the new "not worth the effort". Quirks punished some mechs just as much as they rewarded others. But thanks to the 65 tonners (and 1 Dragon in the right circumstances), we at least have some solid heavies to build drop decks with. I hope PGI thinks about that for the next IS mech pack: A solid 70-75 ton heavy with ECM fills both of those IS needs.

Until then the we in the IS shall simply have to make do with what we have. I'm almost sure something great is in the works. How else would PGI get people to switch back to the IS after they bought clan wave III?

Uuuh, dude, the Atlas DD-C is one of the best assaults in the game.

[Mordin Ashe]

Hellbringers are my no.1 Mechs to go quite soon. Common Timby+3xSCR isn't bad but still, that Timby doesn't make it worth to me to stick with it. 2xSCR+2xHBR should be the way to go. ECM is part of the problem.

Regarding LRMs, they will either disconnected from information warfare or they will suck forever. Simple as that. There will always be on/off switches to information warfare but as long as LRMs are stuck with what others see minus ECM they will not be usefull 50% of the time. Besides that, neither BAP/CAP, PPCs or TAG/NARC is counter to ECM. On paper yes, but in practise it required too much for marginal to no real gain.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 24 February 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

It'll be nice when the IS has an ECM heavy to balance out tonnage cost with firepower and ecm instead of under-gunned lights or an undergunned 100-tonner...but the Hellbringer isn't ruining CW. It's prevalent, and useful, that's all.

[Summon3r]

Heisenbug, on 24 February 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

I recently dropped back into a few CW matches to see the state of that part of the game, and wow, it sucks to be IS right now... reading through a bunch of posts, there's one point I don't see getting enough attention.

Among the various reasons that it sucks to play IS in CW (new players gravitate to IS, more IS pugs vs. clan premades, etc...) is that - IMHO - the clan drop decks have a profound advantage given the Hellbringer ECM.

Limiting ECM's to lights or a very slow assault mech created some interesting game dynamics. But allowing ECM in a 65 ton mech all but guarantees that many/most/all clan drop decks will have one (with the rest of the drop deck being bad-ass, no compromises necessary in order to bring ECM support), assuring that the clan side will have consistent ECM coverage.

So why is ECM so important? It unbalances the dynamics of the game. There's no such thing as combined arms when LRM's can't find a target. Newbs loose out on their one big crutch in not being able to LRM boat effectively (the one roll a newb can meaningfully contribute to). That actually applies to a lot of puggers too.

Hellbringer ECM isn't the sole reason that CW isn't working well at present, but it just terribly exacerbates every other problem. I'm probably overstating things, but I'd venture that disallowing ECM's on Hellbringers would address 40% of the dysfunction in CW right now.

Alright you people with 4 digits worth of posts, get busy explaining why I'm wrong...

lol

[Screech]

But I thought the clans only used Timberwolves and Stormcrows.