393 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

Wingbreaker, on 25 February 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

You seem to be missing the point that it is a combination of the quirks to the 4N and the GH relaxation, creating a perfect storm of DPS.

For a system that is supposed to create greater diversity in chassis usage, this has twice created 12-mans of the same homogenous build.

So, based on the history of quirks, yes it's going to get nerfed.

At least you can find consolation in knowing that bringing two (or one?) assaults and especially bringing them first, they're seriously gimping their decks. If you manage to break those Stalkers (and you will) with your favorite long range TBR/HBR/SCR builds they'll be forced to revert back to their lights which are easily dealt with. On the other hand, the Clan side can field 'Mechs with comparable firepower throughout the match.

Also, bringing something en masse is always going to cause problems for the other side running mixed builds. If an enemy team brought something silly like 12 Gauss Cicadas I'm sure there'd be comparable QQ as well.

[Vandul]

I
Dont
Know
How
To
Respond.

Another clan-cry-vs-Thud?

Really?

[Triordinant]

o0Marduk0o, on 25 February 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

uhm...the OP is just a fake bear.

Bear rug laid bare?

[GreyGhost]

Gents, I'm working on just this problem. A friend of mine is convinced we can out-range the IS, if we try hard.

As a result, I started doing the math, and doing tests. A T-bolt with quirks and a range module can fire an IS ER large at 827-1654. This is a fair amount more then an C ER large run by itself.

EDIT: The above information is for a Tbolt 5S, below someone was kind enough to point out that the 5SS has better quirks, and the range (Just tested) is 911-1822. The result is that the direwolf below does not actually have the range advantage.

I then decided to set up a direwolf for maximum range, in the hopes of getting a counter. (I used a dire for max tonnage to work with.)

My test laser dire, with a targeting computer 7, and a range module gets a range out of Clan ER large C ER large of 870-1740. (Without the computer, but with the module, it would be 814, meaning that we would indeed be out-ranged. Range would be almost equal with a targeting computer 1, which (with module) would give 831.

So yes, the Clans do technically have a range advantage, if we are willing to pay quite heavily for it.

I don't think it's a very usable advantage, since actually finding a spot you can shoot the enemy at from a range of 1655+ meters is quite hard.


This of course only examines the range, and not the overall DMG over time relative to number of weapons fired in a group and the overall heat generated over time, which we must admit are significant factors.

Because of the change in ghost heat, we now must compare three to two.

For example, each trigger pull of three IS er-large is going to be 27 dmg for 24 heat. With my test mech, I could fire three times on tourmaline without overheating, and would overheat on the fourth. (I put in 16 doubles, including the ones in the engine.) I do not have stalkers, so I did not test those.

A Clan mech firing his ER large in pairs will do 22 damage for 20 heat. If he attempts to fire three he will do 33 damage for 37 heat.

The IS three ER large build will do a DPS of 6, (Actually higher if you can calculate the cooldown quirk, the 6 is from smurfy on the weapon itself.) whereas a clan mech with two will do a DPS of 4.64. Worse, he can deliver that damage and retreat behind cover in less time. Here also the IS has an advantage in that it's meta mechs are all good hill humpers with high mounted weapons.

If clans start running mechs with 4 er large as a counter, to produce a total DPS of 9.28. A macro to fire the second group exactly 0.5 seconds after the first might also be advised, but we would still suffer the time disadvantage due to a total burn time of 2.5 seconds on target, (if you can keep it on target) vs a target that must fire for 1.1 seconds and who may then descend behind his hill and become invulnerable.

The result is that while the clans can beat an IS sniper team, the numbers are not their friends.

Edited by GreyGhost, 25 February 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[Tahribator]

GreyGhost, on 25 February 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

*snip*

Try throwing in a Gauss or two(depending on your 'Mech) to complement your C-ERLLs and outcool/damage laser heavy IS opponents. When you throw heat a

Edited by Tahribator, 25 February 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[beerandasmoke]

You guys have to remember that most of the maps you cant hit people at 1500 meters. Are we going to balance mechs due to the fact that one map in CW (Boreal) allows long distance sniping at those ranges? Mechs should be balanced according to play and stats in solo and group que not CW.

Problem with the clan mechs on boreal is not a range issue but the fact they have to expose themselves from the waist up to fire arm mounted weapons. That coupled with more clan burn time leads to the IS having an advantage if played properly. A hulldown thud or 4n does have an advantage over clanmechs IF hes allowed to sit there and snipe on Boreal. But thats just a single map. On sulphur or canyon the odds are a lot more even since there is adequate cover and ranges are much shorter leaving IS at a disadvantage due to the clans high alpha laservomit and ability to boat SRM, ERML builds coupled with their speed.

[Gyrok]

Tahribator, on 25 February 2015 - 03:32 AM, said:

Let's compare apples with apples shall we?

• TDR-5S with 3 (not 4) ERLL + ERLL range 5 module + 12.5% bonus range quirk has ERLL range of 784 meters.
  
• HBR-PRIME with 3 C-ERLL + TC MK 5 + C-ERLL range 5 module has C-ERLL range of 902.8 meters.

Both 'Mechs have 20DHS, but the HBR also has ECM. If you forgo the TC5, you can put 25DHS in the Hellbringer and still have a range of 814 meters. Heck, even the KFX build (with range 5 module) you posted has better range than the 5S, 814 vs 784 meters.


You my friend, you're the worst kind of whiner. The one who doesn't even do his homework and just comes to pollute the forums.

Yeah, it is the 5SS that gets longer range quirks and reduced heat gen through general quirks...not the 5S.

[Necromantion]

Vassago Rain, on 25 February 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

Maybe.

Your gif is frozen i think





Something you guys are forgetting is that the 3 ERLL heat penalty has been removed for IS but not for clans. A bit of an evener upper dont ya think?

[Crockdaddy]

I am fairly sure you can blame PWNface for our fascination with the TDR 5SS and it is 901 meters with ERLL. While clans and others were screaming for the TDR 9S nerf bat because they wanted to break Stealth Raptors heart ... Night's Scorn was primarily using a combination of BLR1S, TDR5SS, Dragon 1N, and Jaeger S in our drop decks. Notice we don't exactly use a uniform drop deck? We still don't. Besides it depends on the map ... and Boreal leads to a natural sniper phase just like the hot map leads to a natural brawl / dakka / light rush phase depending on the objective.

Best case mate is to adjust, group up and be aware of which map and game mode you are fighting and adjust that drop deck accordingly.

[Darth Hotz]

Another claner unhappy because he did not get "Instant Wins" for his money? Seems like claners favorite strategy is whining for IS nerfs. First there was the whining about the TDR-9S and PGI did listen to them for marketing reasons, now they continue with the IS lasers.

Whats next?

[Necromantion]

To be frank i think the OP is just showing that there is really no huge discrepancy when it comes to laser vomit from either faction now, honestly on our clan weeks I miss IS AC's and heat management where on IS i miss heavy mechs with ecm.

I think the game is pretty balanced as it is.

[o0Marduk0o]

GreyGhost, on 25 February 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

Gents, I'm working on just this problem. A friend of mine is convinced we can out-range the IS, if we try hard.

[...]
The result is that while the clans can beat an IS sniper team, the numbers are not their friends.

You sir are a real mechlab warrior.

[GreyGhost]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 25 February 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

I am fairly sure you can blame PWNface for our fascination with the TDR 5SS and it is 901 meters with ERLL.

901 on the 5ss? I was testing with a 5S, since it has LL specific quirks. Thank you, I'll examine the numbers again.

[Mordin Ashe]

I'm BLUE, daba deee daba daaaa, daba dee daba daaaa I ruin your day daba dee daba daa...

The problem are general IS energy range quirks. With them every IS Mech can have improved, easier to handle version of Clan LL. Honestly I think the problem is only with the weapon self but I don't really want to see it nerfed, at least not much. LLs already struggle :-X

[GreyGhost]

Just tested. You are correct, my T-bolt 5SS read out at 911, which would outrange a C-ERLL supported by a mod and a Targeting computer7. A most impressive boat that.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Tahribator, on 25 February 2015 - 03:32 AM, said:

Let's compare apples with apples shall we?

• TDR-5S with 3 (not 4) ERLL + ERLL range 5 module + 12.5% bonus range quirk has ERLL range of 784 meters.
  
• HBR-PRIME with 3 C-ERLL + TC MK 5 + C-ERLL range 5 module has C-ERLL range of 902.8 meters.

Both 'Mechs have 20DHS, but the HBR also has ECM. If you forgo the TC5, you can put 25DHS in the Hellbringer and still have a range of 814 meters. Heck, even the KFX build (with range 5 module) you posted has better range than the 5S, 814 vs 784 meters.






You my friend, you're the worst kind of whiner. The one who doesn't even do his homework and just comes to pollute the forums.

Ah but a stormcrow with 2 erLLs and a erSPL module only has 740M range on the cerLL!

Seriously I can do what you did too.

Now lets look at the battlemaster 1S(%25 Range, %10 heat, %12.5 duration) and TDR 5SS(25% Energy Range, %15 heat, %15 cooldown)). IS ERLL + Module gives it a range of 911M to them ta da, they win, better burn time, less heat better range and better cooldown 5ss drops it to about (2.75s)

5ss 4s Recycle where Clan is 4.75s

9/4 = 2.25DPS @ 7.2 Heat
11/4.75 = 2.32 DPS @ 10 Heat

So very similar DPS yet less heat, less face time, MORE range, and you can fire 3 at once without ghost heat.

So now you have (This is avoiding ghost heat)
27 dmg @ 21.6 Heat for IS
vs
22 dmg @ 20 Heat for Clan.

27/4= 6.75 DPS for IS
22/4.75 = 4.63 DPS for Clan

OUCH.

And before anyone goes off about extra heat sinks, Tbr + 3 LLs and 5SS + 3 is ERLLs maxed heat sinks and within 3kph speedwise both have 68% heat efficiency not counting 5SS quirks. Add TC7 in TBR and it drops to 54% Heat eff.

Edited by shad0w4life, 25 February 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Zolaz]

lol ... The Legacy of Kerensky is to whine whine whine.

[The Great Unwashed]

I deserve a whine horn on my underquirked mech....

[Wingbreaker]

Tahribator, on 25 February 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

At least you can find consolation in knowing that bringing two (or one?) assaults and especially bringing them first, they're seriously gimping their decks. If you manage to break those Stalkers (and you will) with your favorite long range TBR/HBR/SCR builds they'll be forced to revert back to their lights which are easily dealt with. On the other hand, the Clan side can field 'Mechs with comparable firepower throughout the match.

Also, bringing something en masse is always going to cause problems for the other side running mixed builds. If an enemy team brought something silly like 12 Gauss Cicadas I'm sure there'd be comparable QQ as well.

You're right, it should gimp the deck. Unfortunately, as was being proven last night, it does not. The 24 stalkers are more than enough to run through 3/4ths of the enemy team.

And again, any time you would deem to bring 24 of any single weapon systems, it is a gigantic red flag of broken. The system is designed to encourage diversity, and it has created homogeneity.

****'s broke, yo.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Tahribator, on 25 February 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

At least you can find consolation in knowing that bringing two (or one?) assaults and especially bringing them first, they're seriously gimping their decks. If you manage to break those Stalkers (and you will) with your favorite long range TBR/HBR/SCR builds they'll be forced to revert back to their lights which are easily dealt with. On the other hand, the Clan side can field 'Mechs with comparable firepower throughout the match.

Also, bringing something en masse is always going to cause problems for the other side running mixed builds. If an enemy team brought something silly like 12 Gauss Cicadas I'm sure there'd be comparable QQ as well.

A 12 man light rush is NOT easily delt with, 96 SPLs to the legs will end any mech, you think that those long range SCR/HBR/TBRs are going to laser vomit drop a light rush especially after suffering damage from the stalkers, are you high? You will get run over AND leave the objectives open to attack.

Edited by shad0w4life, 25 February 2015 - 08:36 AM.