246 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Where are the anti-assault, anti-heavy, and anti-medium specialist weapons?

It's time we got anti-assault weaponry capable of killing assaults in one shot and guide themselves.

[FupDup]

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

It's time we got anti-assault weaponry capable of killing assaults in one shot and guide themselves.

MekTek added something fun to MW4 for hunting down heavy/assault warriors. Their version of Rocket Launchers dealt very very stupid high damage, had nearly full-auto rates of fire, and were pretty light in terms of weight. They also dealt completely pants-on-head insane levels of cockpit shake.

The downside was having a fairly slow projectile speed...this "coincidentally" made it hard to consistently hit fast targets with them, but big and fat and slow targets couldn't dodge them very easily...

Basically, you could load up a light mech with a bunch of Rocket Launchers and ggclose enemy poptarts in 1-on-1 pretty easily. In NHUA servers where the poptarts thrived more than usual, the super high heat on RL's didn't even apply and you got infinite ammo for them too.

Ironically, even with those insane stats, most people STILL prefered their ERPPC + ERLL + Gauss poptart Gladiators/Black Knights/Wildcats/etc. Many servers also banned the weapons, I wonder why...

[Roadbuster]

Seeing SRM/SSRM Mad Dogs or Stormcrows always reminds me of this:

[Tahribator]

Ohh the post dissection game! It's been a while. Let's see if we can bore others to death:

Escef, on 01 March 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Not really. You get better performance with an AC20. 36 missiles spread randomly over 7 locations equals 10 to 12 damage per location on average. It would take 2 salvos of that, on average, to take down a Locust (though one Alpha from behind has a decent chance of killing an XL Locust, which is the vast majority of them). 2 Salvos... 72 missiles, more than 2/3rds of a ton of ammo, almost 3/4s... An AC20 would not take 4 shots to do that.

Oh yes, on paper the AC20 is much better option. 20 damage instantly delivered to a single component. Easy. The thing is AC20 is harder to aim. Much much harder to aim at lights. Slowest projectile with the lowest range so you can't apply full damage at 400 meters unlike the Streaks. Its effective range against lights is pretty much 100-150m due to bullet travel time. A good light pilot also has a decent chance at evading the bullet while still fighting at brawling ranges. That's not an option with SSRMs. It's either flee or die.

Quote

Actually, it takes MORE aiming, you have to hold reticule over target areas for as much time as it takes to achieve lock. It does, however, not require PRECISE aiming. You trade the ability to do pinpoint damage like you would with a direct fire weapon for higher accuracy.

With target decay, you have 3.5 seconds to do whatever you want between shots. That's not constant, but more like "touch the crosshair to the red box once in a while" aiming. As Artemis still affects streaks for some reason, acquiring locks is also pretty much instant with a 50% reduction. Unlike LRMs they are also truly fire and forget. You can just peek (or poptart), dump 60 alpha and get into cover without worrying if they'll keep tracking or not.

At SSRM30 levels I find the "spread damage" argument irrelevant as you're taking down 1/2 or 1/3rd of the light armor with a high chance of one-shotting damaged ones or straight out blowing limbs off. The Streaks are especially effective against limbs because of their chance based distribution:

Spoiler

LA 15%
RA 15%[/color]
LL 15%[/color]
RL 15%[/color]
LT 12%[/color]
RT 12%[/color]
CT 16%

They tend to target limbs over torsos, which makes them excellent against lights. Those are also just chances. By bringing 30 missiles, you're also increasing the chance of more missiles heading for a single component that outright kills the light or cripples it.

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Yeah, you only have to devote more tonnage to it than to run 2xUAC5. It also runs a LOT hotter than 2xUAC5. Do you know how much ammo you get with 6xSSRM6, CAP, and 4xERML? 3.5 tons. That's it. If you want more ammo than you need to make serious sacrifices in armor, cut your lasers down to smalls (not even medium range firepower, woo!), or downscale your launchers (which is, quite honestly, far more practical).

2xUAC5's also suck at killing lights and doesn't farm as much damage as the streak builds do. What's the argument here? If you're bringing additional 4xERML with 6xStreaks, you're voluntarily gimping yourself. You don't need anything else. A decent 6xSSRM6 MDD can be made with 900 ammo, a 5xSSRM6 SCR with 1000 and an SSRM28 SMN with 600 ammo (with the added benefit of 5JJs). I also wouldn't classify having 60 firepower as "medium levels of firepower".

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And you conveniently dismiss the fact that he had armor damage all over the place BEFORE the salvo landed. A fresh 35-tonner can tank that like a boss.

I don't get it. Are you complaining that you couldn't one-shot him with your magical missiles? As I said, that Jenner is dead after that salvo no matter if you got it or not.

Quote

Please, at best it is a soft counter to lights. Try it yourself. A competent light jock will either kite you or use his speed and size to prevent you from resolving target lock. Low and middling skill light jocks will simply be intimidated and give you a wide berth, unless they get sloppy (which low and middling skill pilots often do) and give you an easy kill.

SSRM20+ is as hard counter as you can get for lights. That's why every competent clan deck has at least one Streakcrow/MDD in CW. Yes, a light (if he's aware of the danger) will actively avoid the Streakboat and will pray that it gets taken down by friendlies or just gets distracted somehow. Still, the area where the Streakboat is present(might as well be the crucial brawl that happens) is effectively off limits for that light. How is that a soft counter?

I do try them occassionally when I'm feeling trollish (the Panther release was an excellent day for it) and as someone who is both on the receiving and giving end of them I think they're ridiculous. My Streak Summoner is my most consistent Summoner (for a chassis otherwise underpowered) with 700+ damage and 2-3 kills per match in the group queue, but those are just anectodes. We can keep posting scoreboards without proving anything.

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Know what I see over and over again in this thread? The BoomJager. People cried the EXACT same tears over the BoomJager when it was new. No skill, too much firepower, newb weapon, yadda-yadda-yadda. Of course, the BoomJager has no lateral motion in the arms, and the only way to carry that kind of firepower with any kind of speed, ammo, or backup guns is to mount an Inner Sphere XL engine on a mech with huge side torsos. People cry over what kills them, regardless of how impractical the build is or how glaring the deficiencies of the build. (As a side note, I find it interesting that almost no one seems to be whining over the KGC's ability to bring twin AC20 to the party.)

AC40 Jagers were ridiculous because they were outdamaging traditional brawlers in close combat. There's a point where gank is more useful than tank, and AC40 Jagers were over that point. TTK with that thing was ridiculous and was adjusted accordingly with ghost heat.

Coincidentally, everybody arguing how OK they were simply switched to dual Gauss for some magical reason. I guess having to stagger their AC20s messed up with their sweet insta-TTK and they went for greener pastures?

Nobody complains about AC40 KGCs because slow projectile with little range + a slow 'Mech is a horrible combination and is easy to avoid. Not to mention the horrible convergence with those arms. Dual Gauss makes more sense with that and that is indeed the prefferred loadout in the solo/group queue.

Edited by Tahribator, 02 March 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[EXO-Scorpion]

MWO mech builds are all "ROCK,PAPER,SCISSORS".

There should NEVER BE "just one uber" build that beats everything else.

Small Pulse Laser Firestarters are bad ass Damaging mother ******* 200m.
If one lil 35ton SPL FS, gets behind and circles an Assault mech. Its over! lol

Streakcrows eat them, usually unless they have great aim and put 2-3 SPL alphas into the CT of the Crow.

also, StreakCrows are USELESS when ERPPC Awesomes are doing 20-30 pinpoint shots to them far out of streak range. Not to mention folks with GAUSS RIFLES with 30 pinpoint dmg!

The list goes on, because:

Varies builds NEED TO CANCEL EACHOTHER OUT.

Edited by ExoScorpion650R, 02 March 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[Escef]

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

I don't get it. Are you complaining that you couldn't one-shot him with your magical missiles?

No, I'm not. Stop being stupid, I know you're smarter than this. Educate yourself about what these things actually do, because you speak as some hyperbolic screaming man-child.

Just as an example, I swapped a pod around on my 36StreakDog and took it into the testing grounds to check the laser weapon groups. Just for poops n giggles, I threw 36 Streaks into the stock Commando 1B that was near me. It tanked it. I blew a couple limbs off of it with my lasers, then I hit it again with another 36... It was still standing.

So, yeah, this whole thing about how Streaks are OP vs lights? It's BS. Pure, unadulterated BS.

EDIT: Footage.

Edited by Escef, 02 March 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[Tahribator]

ExoScorpion650R, on 02 March 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

MWO mech builds are all "ROCK,PAPER,SCISSORS".

There should NEVER BE "just one uber" build that beats everything else.

Small Pulse Laser Firestarters are bad ass Damaging mother ******* 200m.
Streakcrows eat them, usually unless they have great aim and put 2-3 SPL alphas into the CT of the Crow.

Varies builds NEED TO CANCEL EACHOTHER OUT.

How about other lights? Jenners, Commandos, Locusts, Spiders, Ravens, Kitfoxes, Adders. Do they just 2-3 alpha the CT of the crow (which is a feat in itself) and call it a day?

Do we just balance the game by canceling out overpowered stuff with overpowered stuff while saying "**** the rest, let them deal with it"?

Escef, on 02 March 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

No, I'm not. Stop being stupid, I know you're smarter than this. Educate yourself about what these things actually do, because you speak as some hyperbolic screaming man-child.

Just as an example, I swapped a pod around on my 36StreakDog and took it into the testing grounds to check the laser weapon groups. Just for poops n giggles, I threw 36 Streaks into the stock Commando 1B that was near me. It tanked it. I blew a couple limbs off of it with my lasers, then I hit it again with another 36... It was still standing.

So, yeah, this whole thing about how Streaks are OP vs lights? It's BS. Pure, unadulterated BS.

Such evidence, many insults. TIL I'm stupid and uneducated while also being a screaming man-child, just because I do not agree with the great scholar and gentleman known as Escef (notice the lack of insults in my post). I should also probably thank you for acknowledging my existence in the first place.

I'm sorry the COM-1B in the training grounds survived your alpha. That doesn't prove anything or contribute to the argument though. The issue here is how screwed the effort/drawback vs reward ratio of the SSRM20-36 builds are.

Edited by Tahribator, 02 March 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[Escef]

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

How about other lights? Jenners, Commandos, Locusts, Spiders, Ravens, Kitfoxes, Adders. Do they just 2-3 alpha the CT of the crow (which is a feat in itself) and call it a day?

How about that a SRM36 (non-streak) Mad Dog can 2-Alpha a King Crab? Where's the problem here? Screw up and meet the wrong guy when you aren't prepared, dawdle around, fail to move defensively, and yeah, you should get killed for it.

Edited by Escef, 02 March 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[Degalus]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Where are the anti-assault, anti-heavy, and anti-medium specialist weapons?

I would say Ac20 are the best weapons for killing big slow targets like assaults (dual ac20 also can oneshot an assault if you hit the rear and he is a fronttanker) but thats not the point.
Its more the tactic the enemy mech is using.
Example: LRM boat is pretty f***** when a brawler with AC20 and SRM6 comes too close. On the other side a Dual Gauss pretty annihilate a close combat brawler at range so the Gauss is good vs brawlers.
SSRMs are just good in close combat vs light armored, fast, mechs everything else sucks up to many ammo and your dps is way too low.
Everything that have more armor is slower so you take the SRM for better dps and less spread.

Only because the thing is good in something makes it not OP.
For me "OP" is thats something is unbeatable good but ssrms are just good in one thing, killing lights in close combat....
Seriously i can kill a Streakcrow with my AC20 Hunchback 4G (that thing fires the AC20 like an AC10 with the quirks) Pinpoint for the win.

Edited by Degalus, 02 March 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Escef]

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Such evidence, many insults. TIL I'm stupid and uneducated while also being a screaming man-child, just because I do not agree with the great scholar and gentleman known as Escef (notice the lack of insults in my post). I should also probably thank you for acknowledging my existence in the first place.

I'm sorry the COM-1B in the training grounds survived your alpha. That doesn't prove anything or contribute to the argument though. The issue here is how screwed the effort/drawback vs reward ratio of the SSRM20-36 builds are.

And none of what you said is insulting? I've tried to be patient, but I am not a patient man. At first, because I had some amount of respect for you, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and figured you just didn't know and went with the popular misconception of Streaks being great light-buster weapons.

But since you want to talk about how well mannered you are while being this insulting, I see you are content to be a hypocrite. I'm done with you.

[FupDup]

Degalus, on 02 March 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would say Ac20 are the best weapons for killing big slow targets like assaults (dual ac20 also can oneshot an assault if you hit the rear) but thats not the point.
Its more the tactic the enemy mech is using.
Example: LRM boat is pretty f***** when a brawler with AC20 and SRM6 comes too close. On the other side a Dual Gauss pretty annihilate a close combat brawler at range so the Gauss is good vs brawlers.
SSRMs are just good in close combat vs light armored, fast, mechs everything else sucks up to many ammo and your dps is way too low.
Everything that have more armor is slower so you take the SRM for better dps and less spread.

Only because the thing is good in something makes it not OP.
For me "OP" is thats something is too good but ssrms are just good in one thing, killing lights in close combat....
Seriously i can kill a Streakcrow with my AC20 Hunchback 4G (that thing fires the AC20 like an AC10 with the quirks) Pinpoint for the win.

AC/20 is pretty good against anything that it manages to hit. It doesn't discriminate, it kills equally.


Also, this thread/debate actually is more about the guns than the tactics. That example of the LRM boat getting ganked by brawlers is a more dynamic interaction because the LRM boat can still bombard/hurt them from well outside of their range. So, the victor would be determined more about how they use their guns rather than what their guns are...

But SSRMs, at least when boated, aren't really dynamic like that. They're an all-or-nothing gimmick weapon. If you boat a bunch of them and find a light or low-end medium, you have a big advantage over them. If you don't boat them and/or go against fatties with them, they tend to suck popsickles. There really isn't much in-between with them. They either eat the target (usually light) or do basically nothing of worth. Pendulum swing.

Which is why I want their targeting to be based on where they're aimed at the time of firing, so as to increase their effectiveness against big targets while making them harder to hit fasties with (but still totes possible just like normal direct fire guns).

[Tahribator]

Escef, on 02 March 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

How about that a SRM36 (non-streak) Mad Dog can 2-Alpha a King Crab? Where's the problem here? Screw up and meet the wrong guy when you aren't prepared, dawdle around, fail to move defensively, and yeah, you should get killed for it.

Because those SRMs don't guide themselves magically and find their target. You're completely useless outside SRM range (actually half-SRM range in most situations), SRMs are slow projectiles and generate much more heat than Streaks beacuse of their ROF. This is why even though impressive on paper, SRM36 MDDs are few and far between in the battlefield. The positioning and the experience required to make them work are just not worth the hassle for most people. People rather slap on Streaks or LRMs and happily shoot at red boxes as evidenced by the popularity of those builds.

Escef, on 02 March 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

And none of what you said is insulting? I've tried to be patient, but I am not a patient man. At first, because I had some amount of respect for you, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and figured you just didn't know and went with the popular misconception of Streaks being great light-buster weapons.

But since you want to talk about how well mannered you are while being this insulting, I see you are content to be a hypocrite. I'm done with you.

I'm sorry you think that way. Yet, you seem to think that I "insult" you just because I disagree with you. If you read my posts I just brought counter-arguments to your own arguments and didn't mention anything personal such as educational past, mental capabilities or your mental state.

If you don't feel like continuing this discussion that's your choice.

Edited by Tahribator, 02 March 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Degalus]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

AC/20 is pretty good against anything that it manages to hit. It doesn't discriminate, it kills equally.


Also, this thread/debate actually is more about the guns than the tactics. That example of the LRM boat getting ganked by brawlers is a more dynamic interaction because the LRM boat can still bombard/hurt them from well outside of their range. So, the victor would be determined more about how they use their guns rather than what their guns are...

But SSRMs, at least when boated, aren't really dynamic like that. They're an all-or-nothing gimmick weapon. If you boat a bunch of them and find a light or low-end medium, you have a big advantage over them. If you don't boat them and/or go against fatties with them, they tend to suck popsickles. There really isn't much in-between with them. They either eat the target (usually light) or do basically nothing of worth. Pendulum swing.

Which is why I want their targeting to be based on where they're aimed at the time of firing, so as to increase their effectiveness against big targets while making them harder to hit fasties with (but still totes possible just like normal direct fire guns).

Hmmm interesting idea but i think that could lead to a too strong ssrm. Remember the timer where ssrm2s only hitted CT... that was op ^^
I think many can aim good enough to hit Ct only sooo even assaults would die in 2 salvos

Edited by Degalus, 02 March 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[FupDup]

Degalus, on 02 March 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Hmmm interesting idea but i think that could lead to a too strong ssrm. Remember the timer where ssrm2s only hitted CT... that was op ^^
I think many can aim good enough to hit Ct only sooo even assaults would die in 2 salvos

It wouldn't be a 100% guarantee to hit there, mind you, because of situational factors like torso twisting (i.e. target can shield his CT before the missiles hit) or things like that.

If needed we could also give them a built-in spread similar to regular SRMs, and they would try to get the center of the cluster onto the aimed body part rather than the whole cluster there (similar effect as aiming a regular SRM at them, but with some tracking ability added).

I just want the weapons to be more reliable and able to be effective in normal situations so that it's easier to gauge their balance and stuff. Other little stats can be +/- here and there to compensate as need be.

[Degalus]

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

Because those SRMs don't guide themselves magically and find their target. You're completely useless outside SRM range (actually half-SRM range in most situations), SRMs are slow projectiles and generate much more heat than Streaks beacuse of their ROF. This is why even though impressive on paper, SRM36 MDDs are few and far between in the battlefield. The positioning and the experience required to make them work are just not worth the hassle for most people. People rather slap on Streaks or LRMs and happily shoot at red boxes as evidenced by the popularity of those builds.

Uhm cant agree.
I use SRM6+A, the spread is tight and im able to hit the upper torso pretty good around 300m - 250m.
You also dont Alpha with 6xsrm6. Make 2 groups of 3xsrm6 and fire them group by group to avoid ghost heat. So its not too hot, fires fast, doesnt spread as much as ssrm.
Mostly i peform better with srms then ssrms against non lights.
Like i said, its a Anti Light Weapon nothing more.

Edited by Degalus, 02 March 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[Macksheen]

Similar to the LBX, it would be GREAT if we had the ability to turn the guidance on / off - or fire them without a lock like LRMs.

Then you could do things like up the lock time, slow them down, whatever as they'd no longer be quite so binary.

[Degalus]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

It wouldn't be a 100% guarantee to hit there, mind you, because of situational factors like torso twisting (i.e. target can shield his CT before the missiles hit) or things like that.

If needed we could also give them a built-in spread similar to regular SRMs, and they would try to get the center of the cluster onto the aimed body part rather than the whole cluster there (similar effect as aiming a regular SRM at them, but with some tracking ability added).

I just want the weapons to be more reliable and able to be effective in normal situations so that it's easier to gauge their balance and stuff. Other little stats can be +/- here and there to compensate as need be.

hmm could work. But wouldnt stop lightpilots from complaining about ssrms ^^

[FupDup]

Degalus, on 02 March 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

hmm could work. But wouldnt stop lightpilots from complaining about ssrms ^^

The "complaint" frequency would probably lower to a level more similar to direct-fire and SRM weapons, because the difficulty in hitting the desired hitbox (or the target at all) would be increased.

[Sorbic]

Aresye, on 01 March 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

If hit reg wasn't an issue, streaks wouldn't be necessary.

So was hit reg an issue in TT?

SSRM is pretty situationally challenged. Some matches you get a good UAV or friendlies holding locks and you wreck face. Others are ECM heavy or whatever and you're kinda mediocre at best. Yes I hate having a SSRM boat appear and melt my Locust in one blast but I know he will be challenged if another bigger mech shows up in his face. Maybe a SMALL chance for some to miss that goes up as targets tonnage goes down and speed goes up. Prob too complicated. IS Streaks need their damaged bumped back up to what it was before they "balanced" it with clans.

Also I do have to laugh at folks saying they are useless against anything other than lights. If that's what you think then you need to revise your play style. Definitely not ideal but far from useless.

Edited by Sorbic, 02 March 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[Degalus]

Sorbic, on 02 March 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Also I do have to laugh at folks saying they are useless against big mechs. If that's what you think then you need to revise your play style. Definitely not ideal but far from useless.

okok not useless. Ineffectiv is the better word. You doing much better with srms against bigger targets because you dont waste ammo on arms or legs in closecombat like ssrms do.(you even hit arms and legs if you stand 2m infront of it) You also have a higher firerate = dps with srms sooo yea ssrms are ineffectiv against big mechs

Edited by Degalus, 02 March 2015 - 07:53 AM.