273 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Except JJs in MWO dont work like jumpjets in MWLL. If they did we likely wouldnt even be having this discussion.

It's a case-study example of why the argument of "b-b-b-b-but JJs have to be weak or we have poptarts" is a dumb argument.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

then you should know what a blight poptarting was. why would you advocate its return to the game?



Except JJs in MWO dont work like jumpjets in MWLL. If they did we likely wouldnt even be having this discussion.

The likelihood of jumpjets being changed from gradual to instantaneous thrust is very unlikely at this stage of the game.



The Summoner is a bad mech. Just use a Madcat instead.

wow, multiple examples of totally missing the point and context of every statement! Bravo!!!!

[RedDevil]

Somehow I just watched Kobai ague something, then refute himself all in the same page

Edited by reddevil, 01 March 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

wow, multiple examples of totally missing the point and context of every statement! Bravo!!!!

no in fact I understand your point quite clearly. you want restored jumpjet mobility.

I on the other hand do not want jumpjet mobility restored. I think its fine how it is. mechs with jumpjets no longer have a significant advantage over mechs without jumpjets. Thats how it should be.

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that weigh dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible. Even for a game its ridiculous.

Quote

Somehow I just watch Kobai ague something, then refute himself all in the same page

how so? I didnt refute anything I said.

Edited by Khobai, 01 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

reddevil, on 01 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Somehow I just watch Kobai ague something, then refute himself all in the same page

Yup. At least somewhere in all the vitriol, Vass still (sometimes) makes a valid point (His post on this topic, not so much). Even if you have to pick through a lot of crap and sewage to find it. Khobai seemed to stop making much of any sense over a year ago.

I'm fine with opposing views...but actually couch one's rebuttal vs what is actually being said and proposed, not bad strawman arguments against fictitious boogeymen. *SMH*

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

no in fact I understand your point quite clearly. you want restored jumpjet mobility.

I on the other hand do not want jumpjet mobility restored. I think its fine how it is. mechs with jumpjets no longer have a significant advantage over mechs without jumpjets. Thats how it should be.

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that way dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible.

Lol. Yes, because basic physics and IRL logic applies to so much of this game. Which basic law of physics makes it so a mech JJs only recharge when it's feet are on the ground, btw?

Yet another fail, please try again?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 March 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Bluttrunken]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

[...]Light Mechs with no situational awareness throwing themselves off 150 meter high cliffs, with no JJs, taking essentially no damage.[...]

That's all I have to say.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Yup. At least somewhere in all the vitriol, Vass still (sometimes) makes a valid point (His post on this topic, not so much). Even if you have to pick through a lot of crap and sewage to find it. Khobai seemed to stop making much of any sense over a year ago.

I'm fine with opposing views...but actually couch one's rebuttal vs what is actually being said and proposed, not bad strawman arguments against fictitious boogeymen. *SMH*


Lol. Yes, because basic physics and IRL logic applies to so much of this game.

Yet another fail, please try again?

I prefer to reserve my real feedback for the times PGI are open to it, which sadly is typically after they make some huge blunder.

Jets aren't likely to change until they find a way to bypass the initial jenga coding.

[Dock Steward]

The poptart meta also happened at a time when brawling weapons were particularly lackluster. I wonder if the changes that were made to make Brawlers more viable since then wouldn't be enough to allow usable JJ's without adding more reticle shake and still not welcome another poptartapocalypse...

If poptarting did become OP again, then I would support the OP's proposal.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 01 March 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

for the times PGI are open to it, which sadly is typically after they make some huge blunder.

Jets aren't likely to change until they find a way to bypass the initial jenga coding.

On this point, we are in some agreement. I simply feel the enormity of that blunder has had more than long enough to set in. I would prefer it NOT take as long to "fix" as Poptarting itself did.

[Khobai]

clan tech withstanding, the game is more balanced now than it has been in a long time. I see more variation in mechs used than I ever have.

its not just firestarters, cataphracts, victors, and highlanders like it used to be.

so you cant say the jumpjet nerf hasnt improved anything. it definitely has.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 01 March 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

The poptart meta also happened at a time when brawling weapons were particularly lackluster. I wonder if the changes that were made to make Brawlers more viable since then wouldn't be enough to allow usable JJ's without adding more reticle shake and still not welcome another poptartapocalypse...

If poptarting did become OP again, then I would support the OP's proposal.

valid point... though with current HitReg, who knows what's "lackluster" at any given moment, lol.

I really don't think it would be sufficient on it's own, as the big part is still how easy it was to do, vs how little exposure you were required in return.

It might be a little better, (worth test server testing anyhow, I suppose), but I think the root of the issue would still be there, without the reticle shake. Either way, would love to see a week or so open testing on the TS. Let folks keep their wins and XP and offer some meaningless baubles as incentive and let folks play. Always felt the lack of response in the past had a lot to do with the lack of incentive to install and play the test server.

Unless PGI is worried our population is not high enough?

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

clan tech withstanding, the game is more balanced now than it has been in a long time. I see more variation in mechs used than I ever have.

its not just firestarters, cataphracts, victors, and highlanders like it used to be.

so you cant say the jumpjet nerf hasnt improved anything. it definitely has.

except 90% of those balance changes have had little to do with the JJs themselves, and would be largely unaffected by my proposal.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

valid point... though with current HitReg, who knows what's "lackluster" at any given moment, lol.

I really don't think it would be sufficient on it's own, as the big part is still how easy it was to do, vs how little exposure you were required in return.

It might be a little better, (worth test server testing anyhow, I suppose), but I think the root of the issue would still be there, without the reticle shake. Either way, would love to see a week or so open testing on the TS. Let folks keep their wins and XP and offer some meaningless baubles as incentive and let folks play. Always felt the lack of response in the past had a lot to do with the lack of incentive to install and play the test server.

Unless PGI is worried our population is not high enough?


except 90% of those balance changes have had little to do with the JJs themselves, and would be largely unaffected by my proposal.

There's a test server?

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

valid point... though with current HitReg, who knows what's "lackluster" at any given moment, lol.

I really don't think it would be sufficient on it's own, as the big part is still how easy it was to do, vs how little exposure you were required in return.

It might be a little better, (worth test server testing anyhow, I suppose), but I think the root of the issue would still be there, without the reticle shake. Either way, would love to see a week or so open testing on the TS. Let folks keep their wins and XP and offer some meaningless baubles as incentive and let folks play. Always felt the lack of response in the past had a lot to do with the lack of incentive to install and play the test server.

Unless PGI is worried our population is not high enough?

We very much don't have high enough pop, except during the now constant weekend grind events.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Jump jets are definitely lacking the fun department on higher tonnage mechs. To scale walls in Canyon Network one has to run at them and just kinda slide up them while jumping. I think the PPC nerf from awhile back will keep the poptarts from making a comeback, but keep the reticle shake going long after the jets are cut just in case.

[Khobai]

Quote

except 90% of those balance changes have had little to do with the JJs themselves, and would be largely unaffected by my proposal.

Except the ability to climb any hill and jump over obstacles is a HUGE advantage.

What are you going to give mechs without jumpjets to balance that advantage?

You completely failed to address that.

[RedDevil]

There's a test server!? Get some jump jet changes on there ASAP!

[Wrathful Scythe]

Just don't let mechs shoot certain weapons in mid-air. It's as easy as that. If MLaser and SLaser were allowed the abuse would be minimal.

Would love to see a JJ-fix on the test servers just to see how it plays out, if we get real mobility for the price of shooting big weapons in the mid-air.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken, on 01 March 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Jump jets are definitely lacking the fun department on higher tonnage mechs. To scale walls in Canyon Network one has to run at them and just kinda slide up them while jumping. I think the PPC nerf from awhile back will keep the poptarts from making a comeback, but keep the reticle shake going long after the jets are cut just in case.

Yup. Only people who are OK with JJs now, don't own or run Highlanders, etc.

[RedDevil]

I have no idea what Khobai is even talking about anymore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Except the ability to climb any hill and jump over obstacles is a HUGE advantage.

What are you going to give mechs without jumpjets to balance that advantage?

You completely failed to address that.

Let's see, in the case of a mech like the Heavy Metal, about 10 tons more weapons?

Whoops. You did it again.

reddevil, on 01 March 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

I have no idea what Khobai is even talking about anymore.

Pretty sure neither does he.