273 replies to this topic

[Alex Morgaine]

GeneralArmchair, on 04 March 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

Another option is to simply make weapon convergence go haywire while airborne. Each weapon wobbling in different directions. Keep the screen and reticle steady to stop any "motion sickness" complaints before they can even begin. Long-range sniping won't be practical while your convergence is going crazy. You can probably hit a mech sized target at close range, but you won't be able to focus fire on a specifc segment.

That'd work well too, it means brawlers only lose some accuracy, and snipers would do best with one weapon, not multiple at once. I'd say no convergence on torso/and arms with no lower actuator mounted parts period, maybe this unseen wiggle for lower actuator arm mounted weapons As it tries to compensate for the mech moving in 3 dimensions.

Would keep poptarts down to one accurate shot, or an alpha that goes everywhere and might be more useless then waiting for a land/land fight.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Again the weight tradeoff is trivial at best. If your buffs went through, youd would rarely if ever see a JJ capable 55 tonner that chooses not to use jumpjets. Because the advantages jumpjets provide are better than the disadvantages of losing a few tons. A few tons is NOTHING compared to the added mobility of JJs.

It's a lot like ECM mechs, if you pick a mech that is jumpjet capable then why would you not put on at least 1-2 jumpjets? Especially given that jumpjet mechs lose a quirk in the current system, if you don't want jumpjets then the vast majority of the time you're better off picking a mech/variant that doesn't have jumpjets.

I still think jumpjets need to be more than "soggy hoverfarts" but if that would really create such a problem (which I don't think it would) then jumpjet capable mechs could simply lose even more quirks than they do now.

Khobai, on 02 March 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

The main issue I have is that the players pushing for stronger jumpjets expect to get them for free without any additional drawback. Thats not how game balance works. Game balance is give and take. You want stronger jumpjets then you have to give something else up of equal value. Otherwise youre creating imbalance.

The argument is not "I want jumpjets to be even more powerful than they already are" but rather "jumpjets are not powerful enough even when investing significant tonnage into them."

Can you honestly point to my example earlier in the thread and say "yeah, that's fine as it is"?

Edited by Pjwned, 05 March 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Rossario x Vampire, on 02 March 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:

Hope C-ERPPC will be next.

What about the cERPPC? It's essentially a better isERPPC, but both are pretty bad.

Kin3ticX, on 02 March 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

So much wrong with what you said. The problem with jump sniping was two fold. The high skill floor and the under-performance of many mechs which lacked JJs. If anything is easier, it's laser vomit and hill humping. Anyone that says jump sniping was easy doesn't have much of a grasp on things. The reason jump sniping stopped is because PGI went out of their way to kill it. Jump jet thrust, jump jet heat, fall damage, PPC velocity all played a major role.

You aren't suggesting Poptarting was hard, are you?

[HlynkaCG]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

You aren't suggesting Poptarting was hard, are you?

I think the issue is in the differing definitions of "skill" anyone who can hold a cursor on a target, and has the patience to practice the basic mechanics can become a excellent pop-tarter. They might be complete idiots with 0 communication skills, poor situational awareness, and OODA loops the size of Los Angeles, but they'd still win a good portion of their games simply because they were a good pop-tarter.

[Alienized]

quickdraw jumps fine as it is now so should all heavies with a good amount of JJ'a. assault JJ still lack their mobility tho.

[DarkMajor21]

I would love to have JJs back like they should be!

[cSand]

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

[Yokaiko]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

Yeah, put 12 tons to JJ on a Heavy Metal and try it.

[Bishop Steiner]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

I run max JJs on pretty much everything. And most things over 55 tons flat suck. And some under 55 tons are underwhelming, though not nearly as bad. Lights are mostly decent, though I notice the Panther seems off on it's impulse, and both it and the Firestarter often seem to get stuck on flat ballistics arcs instead of a more useful "rainbow" trajectory.

Nothing wrong with being a white knight, as long as objectivity is maintained. Sorry to say, while I like 90% + of the game, there are issues. Pretending there are not, helps nobody, including PGI.

[Mcgral18]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

The Victor K with 6...is rather lackluster. Enough to get half a jump out, and kinda poptart, but terribly slow. It feels like a single ton of JJs on a light mech.

[cSand]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

I run max JJs on pretty much everything. And most things over 55 tons flat suck. And some under 55 tons are underwhelming, though not nearly as bad. Lights are mostly decent, though I notice the Panther seems off on it's impulse, and both it and the Firestarter often seem to get stuck on flat ballistics arcs instead of a more useful "rainbow" trajectory.

Nothing wrong with being a white knight, as long as objectivity is maintained. Sorry to say, while I like 90% + of the game, there are issues. Pretending there are not, helps nobody, including PGI.

I wasn't being flippant there (or white knighting ), was a serious question

I don't really run any JJ assaults that often but I will definitely agree that the HGN feels like making a bus jump, especially at 3 tons/JJ

Believe me I'm first in line for making JJ more effective. JJ brawling is my ice cream and brownies yo... sweet and delicous


But... rework all the JJ system, or just add quirks to mechs that suffering from "hovercraft" syndrome?


SIde note I just made a 7JJ 4G build I'm gonna try out tonight, haha

Edited by cSand, 08 March 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Pjwned]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

Those 1-2 jumpjets still need to accomplish something, if you can't even get over a small obstacle then it creates an all or nothing situation and that's stupid.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Oddly enough, the entire wave of nerfs for JJ's were actually not directly related to JJ mobility itself causing any real problems.

I would love nothing more than to see Highlanders able to get off the ground once more, but if none of the issues get fixed that caused it to be nerfed in the first place, then what is the point?

Its a combination of 3 things that become the symptom of JJ's unbalance in the game.

1. Hill slope tolerances for climbing got nerfed into the ground instead of balanced, leaving JJ mechs as the only option for mobility just to traverse terrain bugs and just in general getting around the maps. The Hill Climb module was introduced to counter this, but it does nothing to improve the slope tolerance of a mech so that they won't need JJ's as often to get up a slope that may be 1-2 degrees too steep to climb otherwise.

2. Animations for takeoff/landing on a handful of "competitive" mechs.
Its undeniable that the Victor played a pivotal role in this snowball of JJ nerfs, and those who deny or defend & use the exploit of JJ pumping are only defending it because they know its a broken mechanic and they use it to win, apparently at all costs.

Its twitchy and broken animations for JJ'ing, and using the exploit on it for the Victor, the Timberwolf & others is nothing short of cheating, because it completely screws up hitreg and makes the model of the mech and its hitbox warp and teleport all over the place, while the cockpit view stays almost perfectly stable during the exploit. The offenders do this because they know its breaking the hitboxes.

3. Hitreg, lastly but most important.
Hitreg is everything in a shooter, and this game has the worst hitreg I've ever endured in any game, ever.

Its bad enough when you have an entire class of weapons (lasers) that can't reliably deal damage to any mobile target, but then you toss in light mechs that when moving fast soak up as much damage as 2 or more Assault mechs in the game, and then throw hitbox desync on top of that related to animation glitches.. sheesh..

All 3 of these need to be addressed first and foremost before JJ's can be brought back to acceptable levels of thrust and raising height caps for better mobility and fun factor associated with them IMO.

If thrust caps and height are restored back to how great they used to be, it would still be a mess, because of broken animations, and crappy hitreg, and the unbalance of NON-JJ mechs that can't even traverse the normal terrain.

(notice that I didn't blame Gauss & PPC, surprise!, they're not the real problem)

Edited by Mister D, 08 March 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[Ragtag soldier]

.....people have trouble with poptarts? it's not like they move a whole bunch, just lob some autocannon rounds into their face and have the strikers flank them. haven't seen a poptart 'mech yet that can fight for crap once you close.

but yeah, they need to un-PGI the jumpjets so they're useful at all weight classes. maybe we need to step up and teach the devteam how to fight poptarts so they don't have a biased noob's opinion of jumpjets.

[Bloodweaver]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

I often wonder if people complain about JJ because they only stick 1 or 2 on their mech.

Gotta spend those tonnes if you wanna fly, yo


6JJ QKD 4G gets hangtime like Jordan

Jordan on Jupiter, maybe. Even with 7JJ it's pretty lackluster. Seven jumpets on the 4G is really what three or four jets should be like. Seven should be amazing, not just "worth it."

[Skamay]

I thought the Grasshopper was going to jump into the midst of enemies surprising them like it describes in Technical Readouts. Instead I I feel like I'm farting slowly. That's with 6 JJs.

[Unnatural Growth]

I think Paul needs some group therapy to talk through his rough handling by a Highlander. Maybe some role play...

"Now Paul, take this toy Cicada, and show us where the mean Highlander touched you".

He's still carrying an awful lot of hatred for that chassis around.

Because thanks to the JJ nerfs, the chassis is nearly worthless. 5 JJ's is 10 tons worth of useless baggage on my Heavy Metal. Shame really, as a jumping ballistic/energy assault should be a versatile platform, instead of a pile of steel gathering dust in a hanger. Without real JJ's, the Highlander is more of a gimped heavy than an assault. I'd take my Atlai over my 'landers as it sits now.

And Victors, well I got mine after the JJ Holocaust, so without knowing what I was missing, I just build them without JJ's entirely.

[Khobai]

Quote

The argument is not "I want jumpjets to be even more powerful than they already are" but rather "jumpjets are not powerful enough even when investing significant tonnage into them."

Except the tonnage isnt significant for most mechs. Most mechs only pay .5 tons or 1 ton per JJ. So thats like 2-4 tons for a full set. Thats hardly significant. Its really only a significant amount of tonnage on 90+ tons mechs but thats done deliberately to discourage jumpjets on assaults.

You cant expect a significant bonus for an insignificant amount of tonnage. Thats simply not balanced. Im not saying the game shouldnt have stronger jumpjets simply that the tonnage cost alone isnt enough to balance out stronger jumpjets... we tried that before and it didnt work.

Edited by Khobai, 23 March 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Mystere]

OldOrgandonor, on 23 March 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think Paul needs some group therapy to talk through his rough handling by a Highlander. Maybe some role play...

Is it really Paul? Or is it the legions of weeping players severely traumatized after being touched by poptarts in their private places?

[Bloodweaver]

Khobai, on 23 March 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Except the tonnage isnt significant for most mechs. Most mechs only pay .5 tons or 1 ton per JJ. So thats like 2-4 tons for a full set. Thats hardly significant. Its really only a significant amount of tonnage on 90+ tons mechs but thats done deliberately to discourage jumpjets on assaults.

You cant expect a significant bonus for an insignificant amount of tonnage. Thats simply not balanced. Im not saying the game shouldnt have stronger jumpjets simply that the tonnage cost alone isnt enough to balance out stronger jumpjets... we tried that before and it didnt work.

Five JJs on a 35-ton 'Mech: 7.143% of total chassis weight
Five JJs on a 50-ton 'Mech: 5% of total chassis weight
Five JJs on a 65-ton 'Mech: 7.692% of total chassis weight
Five JJs on a 80-ton 'Mech: 6.25% of total chassis weight
Five JJs on a 90-ton 'Mech: 11.11% of total chassis weight, and it still barely does anything - only the Heavy Metal can do this, but even with three JJs (as on other Highlanders) you use up 6.667% of your total chassis weight

To get a decent amount of JJ lift you DO have to spend a significant amount of weight. Even on a 50-tonner, you use up as much weight with five jump jets as you would have saved by using Endo-steel internals. Unless you're saying that the weight savings from Endo-steel are insignificant, then yeah, you do have to spend a significant amount of weight to get a good return on JJ investment. The most efficient chassis weight for JJs is 55 tons - the further your chassis deviates from that weight, the more it has to pay to use JJs. This is a problem.