273 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Sorry Bishop, but no. Jump jets are fine the way they are. In fact I think they're still too effective on most Mechs.

Jump Jets are meant to be a maneuvering aid. They're for traversing challenging terrain. Yes, you hear of them being used acrobatically during combat in the lore, but you also hear about Mechs exploding and damaging everything around them in the lore. That's not a sufficient argument.

I will admit that I haven't played a Highlander since long before their JJ were nerfed, so maybe I need to go play around with one in the Testing Grounds to see what it's like. But on the light end JJ are clearly (to me) too powerful. We still constantly see bunny hopping lights bouncing around in close combat like rubber balls on steroids, blithely going about their business with no ill effects.

So maybe it's an adjustment that's needed, not an un-nerfing. Make them slightly better for assaults, but make them worse for lights. Because I'm 100% against anything that makes JJ better than they currently are for lights.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Bishop,
people seem really worried about Bunny hopping,
so i came up with 3 potential fixes that very well could work,

1) Actually Fix the Animation when the JumpJeting Mech hits the ground,
(this may be harder to fix because of inconsistencies in the Animation or other Problems that i am not aware of)

2) Add a Cool-Down for JumpJets after ground contact and they Start refueling,
(this Cool-Down would start after you hit the ground and you JJ start refueling, a second maybe good)

3) Add a Minimum burn time to JumpJets after a mechs JumpJets Fire,
(this would mean after hitting the JJ button they will turn on for a set amount of time, a second maybe good)

your thoughts on these Bishop?
i like #1 my self but in case they cant what do you think?

[WonderSparks]

Armorine, on 23 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

We must print this out and physically mail it to pgi

I can have it delivered personally if need be, I live just across the street from PGI, relatively speaking.

_{Not a lot of distance between Victoria and Vancouver, just a ferry ride away!}

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 March 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

@Bishop,
people seem really worried about Bunny hopping,
so i came up with 3 potential fixes that very well could work,

1) Actually Fix the Animation when the JumpJeting Mech hits the ground,
(this may be harder to fix because of inconsistencies in the Animation or other Problems that i am not aware of)

2) Add a Cool-Down for JumpJets after ground contact and they Start refueling,
(this Cool-Down would start after you hit the ground and you JJ start refueling, a second maybe good)

3) Add a Minimum burn time to JumpJets after a mechs JumpJets Fire,
(this would mean after hitting the JJ button they will turn on for a set amount of time, a second maybe good)

your thoughts on these Bishop?
i like #1 my self but in case they cant what do you think?

#1 is the only one I support. Almost all the other "fixes" people mention break or hurt things more than they currently are.

[Zakatak]

Honestly, JJ's are just about perfect. It's just the lack of an actual jump which is making them useless. Logically, a 'Mech would initiate the jump by actually pushing off the ground for a bit of vertical velocity. For maybe a quarter second, rapidly accelerate the vertical speed to maybe 5m/s or so to simulate a "jump." To prevent bunny hopping, have a cooldown of a few seconds after the Mech hits the ground before it can do this again. This should be enough to get a Highlander to do a proper Highlander Burial.

Edited by Zakatak, 23 March 2015 - 10:37 PM.

[Sorbic]

I have a good solution for pop-tarting. Shoot those slow, giant clay pigeons while they travel on a completely predictable up/down path. Ok, so we shouldn't go back to the hay day of poptarts. I just couldn't resist a jab at the folks who made pop-tarting easy by moving predictably and being slow to shoot back.

[Karl Streiger]

Sorry JumpJets perfect?
Duno what do you use for Mechs Wolverines, Griffins and Vindicators?
Those got the most thrust per ton - only the Spider with >10 JumpJets can outjump an Vindicator with 6.
So you have the first crux - different thrust ratings for different classes
Second at Class 4 to Class 3 - the weight in increased - while thrust keeps the same - so the Quickdraw with 7tons of jump jets can be outjumped by a Wolverine with 3.5t of jump jets
Same happens at change from Class 2 to Class 1. Wooping 10tons of JumpJets for the HM and you hardly got away from the ground.

The idea behind those JumpJetsClasses was great - but you can't reduce it into 3 classes - 0.5; 1, and 2ton lifters
so a 7 jump jets Spider get more thrust per MechWeight as a Wolverine with 7. Problem is scaling - because if 3 JumpJets on a SHD are useable they will kick your 20t Wasp with 6 JumpJets to the moon.

So 5 classes are good.
But you have to tweak stuff with heat:
Class 6 0.5 ton 1 heat per second and jump jet
Class 5 0.5 ton 2 heat per second and jump jet
...

IMHO JumpJets are worthless but for bunnyhopping - on most "line" Mechs - (Wolverine with 330 XL flight looks like JumpJets should work)
And the most simple way to pervent bunnyhopping - is to make JumpJets.

I did post it a while ago and i still think its the way to go.
First - you should not "controll" the burn like on a flamer - you have to activate the jets and they kick in.
1 JumpJet give you 1sec burn - 1 activation
2 JumpJets give you 2sec burn - 2 activations
...
...
12 JumpJets 12sec burn - 12 activations

You can still bunny hop - with 1ton of JumpJets - but with decent cool down rating an thrust rating it would not give you much benefit. So you better think about other use - for example Frozen City....run through the valley - cross thetha and jump the wall to get into the back of the enemy.
Funny stuff ist that worked great during OpenBeta with my 340XL CTD-3D - 4 jump jets 5sec burn - was a slow climb rate but with 5seconds i get where i wanted to get. Can't be said about jets today - can't even remember when i used jets on highlander or victor for the last time - but to clear a !!tank!! trap

[jay35]

The only real need right now is to fix the broken jumpjets on the Victor and Highlander so they function like every other mech, i.e., properly. This is not a need for a quirk, it's a need to bug-fix the purposefully buggy jumpjets on those two chassis.

There is no need to change anything else, including reticle shake. No new convoluted mechanics or mathematical formulas. Poptart sniping will not magically return to the top of the meta heap simply by fixing something that's broken. There have been a ton of other changes that have impacted that playstyle including PPC velocity and heat.

Edited by jay35, 23 March 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

jay35, on 23 March 2015 - 11:35 PM, said:

There is no need to change anything else, including reticle shake. No new convoluted mechanics or mathematical formulas. Poptart sniping will not magically return to the top of the meta heap simply by fixing something that's broken. There have been a ton of other changes that have impacted that playstyle including PPC velocity and heat.

Nope - poptarting is not depended on "long range" weapons. the only reason i don't use the 3D with 2 shoulder peps - is not quirks or ppc velocity(have the same problems when shooting at a target while standing) - only reason is that I HATE those horns.
Difference is - Highlander and Victor need to expose them more to get there weapons free. Poptarting has a lot advantages you would be silly not to use them.

[One Medic Army]

Simple solutions:

• Fix animations so bunny-hopping stops breaking the hitboxes.
  
• Apply either reticule-shake and/or cone-of-fire for weapons while airborne.
  
• Allow jumpjets to jump again, on all the mechs.

Suddenly poptarting only works at close ranges due to reduced accuracy while not on the ground, and jets can be used for maneuvering again, rather than only existing to break hitboxes constantly.

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 March 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[Unnatural Growth]

Roadkill, on 23 March 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Sorry Bishop, but no. Jump jets are fine the way they are. In fact I think they're still too effective on most Mechs.

Jump Jets are meant to be a maneuvering aid. They're for traversing challenging terrain. Yes, you hear of them being used acrobatically during combat in the lore, but you also hear about Mechs exploding and damaging everything around them in the lore. That's not a sufficient argument.

I will admit that I haven't played a Highlander since long before their JJ were nerfed, so maybe I need to go play around with one in the Testing Grounds to see what it's like. But on the light end JJ are clearly (to me) too powerful. We still constantly see bunny hopping lights bouncing around in close combat like rubber balls on steroids, blithely going about their business with no ill effects.

So maybe it's an adjustment that's needed, not an un-nerfing. Make them slightly better for assaults, but make them worse for lights. Because I'm 100% against anything that makes JJ better than they currently are for lights.

No, no, no. You need to go play a Highlander in a match. Preferably one that you're actually trying to win. Not just pissing around in training grounds. The chassis is pretty useless now.

Mystere, on 23 March 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Is it really Paul? Or is it the legions of weeping players severely traumatized after being touched by poptarts in their private places?

Not really sure about that, but I have my doubts. They go against the majority of customers "wants" a lot of the time, so...

?

Edited by OldOrgandonor, 24 March 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[oldradagast]

Jump jets are useless right now on larger chassis.

We all know that, so making changes is reasonable.

Recticle shake through the whole cycle is a good idea, combined with making them actually JUMP.

Also, fixing "bunny-hopping" that breaks hitboxes would be nice, too.

Edited by oldradagast, 24 March 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[Gattsus]

OldOrgandonor, on 24 March 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

No, no, no. You need to go play a Highlander in a match. Preferably one that you're actually trying to win. Not just pissing around in training grounds. The chassis is pretty useless now.




Not really sure about that, but I have my doubts. They go against the majority of customers "wants" a lot of the time, so...

?

The HGN has the agility of a DWF and the firepower of an IS heavy... and it runs hot.

I enjoy my lrm-733C but I understand those who complain since this could be one beast of a brawler if it weren't so slow and clumsy.

Edited by Gattsus, 26 March 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[dimachaerus]

Any word on what he who must not be named is doing to jumpjets this time? Read somewhere he was taking a look at them again. And also just supporting this thread again, though I had a bit of a thought whilst watching some knob-jockey meta player skip around in a Timby with a wildly flaming rear orifice:

Give us back our thrust, make our jets thrust a hell of a lot harder and give us forward/backward control, but at the same time, drastically reduce the damn recharge rate. "Bunnyhopping" only works because the jets recharge almost as fast as you can use them. Tap your jets and yeah, you'll get a few skips, but then you have no more juice and may very well be screwed. Increased thrust would also make each "tap" actually force the knob-goblin further into the air causing him to lose speed.

This change would be a LOT easier than them trying to fix their craptastic animations and do as a bit of a bandaid for now.

Edited by dimachaerus, 24 March 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Firelizard]

One Medic Army, on 23 March 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Simple solutions:

• Fix animations so bunny-hopping stops breaking the hitboxes.
  
• Apply either reticule-shake and/or cone-of-fire for weapons while airborne.
  
• Allow jumpjets to jump again, on all the mechs.

Suddenly poptarting only works at close ranges due to reduced accuracy while not on the ground, and jets can be used for maneuvering again, rather than only existing to break hitboxes constantly.

What if, instead of cone of fire or reticle shake, you instead had arms locked with no convergence when jumping?

Makes sense from a technical stand point of keeping the machine as stable as possible while it is flying through the air. Taking shots while airborn is still possible, but you lose your pinpoint capability.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

stuff

"instead of actually allowing for more options and diversity in play style."

Sadly, those added Options and more Diverse play styles will not be Global. Not all Mechs are allowed to mount JJ's.

So are we just "helping ourselves" or are we actually trying to "help everyone" who plays when it comes to adding "more options and diversity in play style"?

[One Medic Army]

Firelizard, on 24 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

What if, instead of cone of fire or reticle shake, you instead had arms locked with no convergence when jumping?

Makes sense from a technical stand point of keeping the machine as stable as possible while it is flying through the air. Taking shots while airborn is still possible, but you lose your pinpoint capability.

That actually helps poptarts a little for long-distance shots (even with no convergence), while hurting anyone jumping around and aiming at nearby enemies, kind-of the opposite of what the goal was.

Edited by One Medic Army, 24 March 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[DragonFire1170]

A good mix of reticle shake or convergeance dropping could fix the poptarting issue since the jumper won't be able to get a trusty hit with a weapon at all but relatively close range or mid range, but the other thing that could hurt poptarting is giving Jump Jets their thrust and height back. I know a turn in the tabletop is done in 10 seconds, and a Mech being able to run a distance and then jump like 120m+ upward must mean the jets are rediculously powerful.

So if the jump jets in MWO were to cause your mech to rocket upwards as you hold the button, you'd have less time to try to fire a shot before a target gets below your firing arcs, on top of losing weapon convergeance, and perhaps to further make it difficult to return poptarting in, the jump jets should give forward movement, which the table top seems to hint at being walking speed for a mech (which is about 60% throttle in MWO I believe), would add extra risk to a jump; you could end up overshooting your cover you planned to drop behind after finishing a jump. With that thrust power, it can be assumed a full-height jump takes maybe 2 seconds to reach peak.

On top of this, you have fall damage to worry about, so firing all your jump jets without thinking it through would leave you a (for example) 90t Highlander falling from a 90m height with 3 jets that has no way to cushion that hefty landing...though this probably means a fall damage rework, or even re-adding the old tripping mechanic, have a mech that fell from such a height fall over and have to get back up.

Edited by DragonFire1170, 24 March 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Krivvan]

What you're suggesting, Bishop, would kill the ability to play JJ light mechs too.

Quote

adjusting a line of code in an HTML file?

I'm assuming you mean XML.

All that needs to be done is tweaking the Assault Jump Jets to be better. We should have poptarting back in the game, just not so dominant that it's the only way to play.

Edited by Krivvan, 24 March 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Roadkill, on 23 March 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Sorry Bishop, but no. Jump jets are fine the way they are. In fact I think they're still too effective on most Mechs.

Jump Jets are meant to be a maneuvering aid. They're for traversing challenging terrain. Yes, you hear of them being used acrobatically during combat in the lore, but you also hear about Mechs exploding and damaging everything around them in the lore. That's not a sufficient argument.

I will admit that I haven't played a Highlander since long before their JJ were nerfed, so maybe I need to go play around with one in the Testing Grounds to see what it's like. But on the light end JJ are clearly (to me) too powerful. We still constantly see bunny hopping lights bouncing around in close combat like rubber balls on steroids, blithely going about their business with no ill effects.

So maybe it's an adjustment that's needed, not an un-nerfing. Make them slightly better for assaults, but make them worse for lights. Because I'm 100% against anything that makes JJ better than they currently are for lights.

Go play a highlander.

Laugh at it in disgust, then come back here and say what you just said about JJ's being fine, again.