434 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

kind...of..the ....point.

But the fall period allows for nice clean sniping. More of that will not make MWO a better game. That we already know.

Btw, Bunny Hopping is becoming a thing. Despite those players looking totally idiotic and stupid doing it. Anything to get some edge right?

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

not exactly. He is just saying their thrust is insufficient for their mass, in his opinion. Jump sniping is one use, plenty of others.

I'm not so hung up on total thrust...my issue is more how easily mechs get hung on geometry and waste thrust. The need to fix that.

That "getting hung up" thing has as much to do with how a Mech makes the attempt as the geometry. If you "drag" the Mech up a cliff face, sure it will catch in places. Most who do that, either do not have enough JJ's equipped for a Proper jump (walk/run/jump/arc/land), or just don't jump properly (walk/run/hit wall/drag Mech upwards/waste thrust) and then gripe about the geometry, like everything else.

I don't own many JJ capable, but I rarely "scrape" my Mech up a cliff and get hung up, thus wasting thrust, instead I prefer to take sufficient JJ's and do it right. Each to their own I guess.

Now ground based pebbles stopping Mechs in their tracks can be pain.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

actually not how that works. Greater mass requires more force to move and generates more momentum.

Were' not launching mechs vertically we're pushing them via thrust...

Unless you are considering JJ to create near instantaneous vertical velocity, the thrust of JJs typically would not generate enough vertical inertia to generate that monetary zero / zero apex transition point.

As such mechs are hanging on the generated thrust not riding momentum... So when thrust is expended, the mechs would / should almost instantaneously submit to gravity no?

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 03 March 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

That "getting hung up" thing has as much to do with how a Mech makes the attempt as the geometry. If you "drag" the Mech up a cliff face, sure it will catch in places. Most who do that, either do not have enough JJ's equipped for a Proper jump (walk/run/jump/arc/land), or just don't jump properly (walk/run/hit wall/drag Mech upwards/waste thrust) and then gripe about the geometry, like everything else.

I don't own many JJ capable, but I rarely "scrape" my Mech up a cliff and get hung up, thus wasting thrust, instead I prefer to take sufficient JJ's and do it right. Each to their own I guess.

Now ground based pebbles stopping Mechs in their tracks can be pain.

or, like happens so often, you attempt a proper jump and instead get a shallow jet assist into the cliff face.

Almond Brown, on 03 March 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

But the fall period allows for nice clean sniping. More of that will not make MWO a better game. That we already know.

Btw, Bunny Hopping is becoming a thing. Despite those players looking totally idiotic and stupid doing it. Anything to get some edge right?

And what part of the multiple posts regarding the fall period, and extended reticle shake are you still overlooking?

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

wanna redo that with a 270 engine and 3 JJs, aka the "sarna" loadout? Be curious to see.

Good point, I'll give it a go when I get home.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Were' not launching mechs vertically we're pushing them via thrust...

Unless you are considering JJ to create near instantaneous vertical velocity, the thrust of JJs typically would not generate enough vertical inertia to generate that monetary zero / zero apex transition point.

As such mechs are hanging on the generated thrust not riding momentum... So when thrust is expended, the mechs would / should almost instantaneously submit to gravity no?

Not how inertia works. If there was no momentum, there would be no upward thrust period. Once you start moving an object, mass x velocity comes into effect, no matter how you cut it man.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

Yes, jump jets.

Not skip rope jets. Also, show me which mech here in game is jumping the Sarna distance? Uh, NONE? Also, for those who have the sourcebooks, Height IS defined. For every movement point of Jump Jets you can achieve 30 meters of distance, and 1 level of elevation, and 1 level of elevation is defined in all the source material as 6 Meters.

Thus, a Spider, could jump 240 meters in distance, or 48 meters straight up. A Highlander ,90 and 18. respectively.

The BIG thing in all this is this bit.

Quote

For every movement point of Jump Jets

The Players always convert the ability to Move as "Pop Tarting." Don;t blame PGI for that.

P.S. To the "Clay Pigeon" comment made earlier (forget who) A true "Clay Pigeon" never shoots back.

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 March 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 03 March 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

Good point, I'll give it a go when I get home.

sounds good. I guess I could slap one into my Heavy Metal..... shake some dust off of it. Even with a 325 that thing handles like a pig. When my Stock BNC-3S feels more agile than a Highlander....*SMH*

[Crockdaddy]

I've bought ever package PGI has offered almost always at the highest level. For reasons along the lines of what Bishop has put forth, I've chosen at this time to not make a purchase. My investment is a bit over 600$ ... so obviously I care. Just I don't feel value for the money spent in Clan Wave II and somewhat similar with other packages.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 03 March 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

I must look into more JJ capable chassis. My current favorite's are pretty much all ground pounders. Does the new Pack have any JJ capable Mechs in it? (I know, just look it up right but...)

Of the Wave 3 Mechs, only the Ebon Jaguar does not have JJs equipped.

[Bishop Steiner]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 03 March 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

I've bought ever package PGI has offered almost always at the highest level. For reasons along the lines of what Bishop has put forth, I've chosen at this time to not make a purchase. My investment is a bit over 600$ ... so obviously I care. Just I don't feel value for the money spent in Clan Wave II and somewhat similar with other packages.

Yeah.

Truth be told, I still feel there is value, because of the Premium Time and all that jazz. I just am already so tired at looking at my hangar at the number of mechs I have ZERO desire to even play. And on my Clan Acct, that's pretty much everything but my Summoner Prime, Gargoyle and Mad Dog Prime.

This accout has an equal number of mechs in mothballs, like my Heavy Metal because of how poorly balance attempts were made, when simple solutions would have avoided a lot of ridiculous levels of nerfage.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Not how inertia works. If there was no momentum, there would be no upward thrust period. Once you start moving an object, mass x velocity comes into effect, no matter how you cut it man.

Understood... But that's where vertical velocity comes in. Can we agree a light mech would / should generate substantially greater vertical velocity than an assault? And if we agree to that point, then we should be able to agree that the assaults vertical velocity being less than a light mechs, it would lose said vertical velocity quicker and as such an assault would transition through it's apex point faster?

In short... for an assault it's thrust is barely exceeding it's mass.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

In short... for an assault it's thrust is barely exceeding it's mass.

in current MWO mechanics, that is true.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 03 March 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

P.S. To the "Clay Pigeon" comment made earlier (forget who) A true "Clay Pigeon" never shoots back.

A poptarting mech, or any mech for that matter, cannot shoot what it cannot see. It's all in the positioning.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

in current MWO mechanics, that is true.

Isn't it nice to carry out an exchange of opinion without it resulting in a flame war?

We should write a book or something...

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Understood... But that's where vertical velocity comes in. Can we agree a light mech would / should generate substantially greater vertical velocity than an assault? And if we agree to that point, then we should be able to agree that the assaults vertical velocity being less than a light mechs, it would lose said vertical velocity quicker and as such an assault would transition through it's apex point faster?

That said, the shorter apex window for the heavier mech, would actually be ideal for helping keep poptarting under control. It would still be there, but the length would be shorter. And whether you applied my reticle shake method, or Fate 6's (With Fates, with shake on the up and down, and stability on top, you would probably benefit more with the Assaults, than with mine, where the shake merely extends a second after the JJs are cut, because Assaults are already going to have a shorter jump, so by the time the shake subsists, the window will be much smaller, and with either, the bigger the window, means the longer exposed to return fire), the heavier the mech, the smaller the window for successful poptart shots, thus lowering the potential alpha levels. In other words, a VND-1R with 2 PPC would have a better shot window than a CTF-3D or Summoner, all would have varying degree better windows than a Victor, and once you get up to Highlander, Executioner or Flying Whale masses, the window would be very short indeed.

Properly done, a Light might have an Apex window of a little over a second (also making it a bigger target) whereas a DW-S would probably be slightly less than .5 seconds.

I think that would actually add a further degree of balance refinement. Your thoughts?

(Numbers are placeholder approximations)

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Isn't it nice to carry out an exchange of opinion without it resulting in a flame war?

We should write a book or something...

well, since we both know my epeen is bigger....

j/k. Yup, civility, amazing what interchanges it can accomplish.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 March 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

well, since we both know my epeen is bigger....

Sigh... I though we just went through this?

If you cannot generate enough thrust that humongous epeen is almost useless.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Sigh... I though we just went through this?

If you cannot generate enough thrust that humongous epeen is almost useless.

touche! Wait....I don't want u touch e my-.......

ew.

[Ultimax]

Here's a random interjection of my opinion on all of this.


1) I'm not happy with the current state of JJs.

2) I'm OK with poptarting as a tactic, as long as it's not the sole dominant tactic.

3) I don't believe JJ shake on the way down actually allows the tactic to be viable, it's not as heavy handed as not allowing any weapons to be fired at all while airborne, but I don't actually feel JJ shake on the way down leaves enough room for the tactic to be feasible (this is from my experience trying to take shots, even with hitscan, while mid-thrust).

4) I don't want to see JJ thrust quirks for specific mechs to "fix" the current state of JJs solely for those mechs. I want to see a robust solution that covers all JJs - if some mechs after that point then deserve a further tweak, I'd be OK with that.

5) I really want an ETA on the JJ Turn rate issue that was put on hold from the October Road Map - to see what kind of improvements this can bring to the conversation.




I really don't have a solution, this is my opinion after digesting some of the various ideas n this thread.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 March 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 03 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Here's a random interjection of my opinion on all of this.


1) I'm not happy with the current state of JJs.

2) I'm OK with poptarting as a tactic, as long as it's not the sole dominant tactic.

3) I don't believe JJ shake on the way down actually allows the tactic to be viable, it's not as heavy handed as not allowing any weapons to be fired at all while airborne, but I don't actually feel JJ shake on the way down leaves enough room for the tactic to be feasible (this is from my experience trying to take shots, even with hitscan, while mid-thrust).

4) I don't want to see JJ thrust quirks for specific mechs to "fix" the current state of JJs solely for those mechs. I want to see a robust solution that covers all JJs - if some mechs after that point then deserve a further tweak, I'd be OK with that.

5) I really want an ETA on the JJ Turn rate issue that was put on hold from the October Road Map - to see what kind of improvements this can bring to the conversation.




I really don't have a solution, this is my opinion after digesting some of the various ideas n this thread.

Which is why both mine, and Fate6's suggestion do have specific windows that can be used, with skill. The other useful suggestion was a mild CoF. Any and all are workable. In fact, I've already practiced mine enough to know it works.