434 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Mystere, on 01 March 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

It looks like the psychological trauma induced by poptarts is still around.

Poptarts = Clay pigeons. The wannabes anyway.

There is no trauma on my part. However the Developers are using the above as justification to keep jumpjets permanently in hover mode.

Besides, jumping sniping SHOULD be hard. Rewarding skilled players for shooting well. Putting a little skill into it isn't a bad thing.

[NRP]

Yeah, my reluctance to spend money is really due to the number of garbage mechs included in these packages. I just don't have the time, energy, or patience to play crap mechs. Then when a fun mech or build comes along, they nerf the crap out of it.

[FupDup]

NRP, on 02 March 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Yeah, my reluctance to spend money is really due to the number of garbage mechs included in these packages. I just don't have the time, energy, or patience to play crap mechs. Then when a fun mech or build comes along, they nerf the crap out of it.

Thankfully, most of the wave 3 robbits should be effective, at least stronger than wave 2 that is...the Gladi at worst will still eat the Gargles.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 02 March 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

Nothing gets nerfed because of this, everything gets a HUGE boost.

How about finally having enough thrust to make it to the second rung on the salmon ladder the first try. Instead of this meaningless Jump, to tiny jump to tiny jump.

Sorry but jets need to have some Teeth to them or what's the point.

sorry, but not being able to bunny hop? Is a Nerf for an infighter.

[Carrioncrows]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

sorry, but not being able to bunny hop? Is a Nerf for an infighter.

The benefit from having more jump thrust vastly out weighs any bunny hopping.

If the only reason you have jumpjets is to bunny hop in brawling range, well hell man it behooves me why you even created this thread. I thought you wanted to change this game for the better.

Able to leap over opponents and buildings with enough speed to have tactical surprise and functionality?

Yeah I can see how bunny hopping to hover 2 feet off the ground all to take an extra 0.02 seconds off your turn time trumps that. Sure. That's sarcasm btw, because I don't see it.

I see a lot of people paralyzed by fear because they have that one light mech that can bunny hop. Pay no mind the other mediums, heavies and assaults suck because of it. So we get threads like this where people want to change jumpjets for the better. And here come cries of: "Don't nerf my light mech!"

Seriously man. If that happens to change the way light mechs are played? So be it, at this point any change is for the better. Because the way it is now is boring and lethargic.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 03 March 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

knightsljx, on 02 March 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

so much misconceptions in this thread.

1) Jump Jets are JUMP jets, they aid the mech in jumping. They're not flight boosters. You're not supposed to be able to fly in them, hence you don't lift off when you activate JJs when falling.

2) The distance reported in Sarna is jump DISTANCE, not height.


but yes, Class I JJs need a slight buff, they should perform at least the same as current Class II JJs given the tonnage investment

Sorry, several sourcebook, novels and whatnot explain jump jets as being JUMP jets, not hoverjets.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 03 March 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 03 March 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

The benefit from having more jump thrust vastly out weighs any bunny hopping.

Yes, to your mind and play style.

Bunny hopping helps when brawling (and I don't mean the feathering to break HSR, either, but short jump into a fight followed immediately by one out).

Bunny hopping is also a requisite to scaling terrain and using those JJs to escape. Even with "powerful thrust", Mechs like the Highlander and Urbanmech will not scale all terrain features in a single bound. Most terrain you jump up part, move a split second and jump again. Your charge mechanic leaves mechs using their JJs for escape and mobility totally screwed.

Even if you had the thrust to play superman, when evading fire the last dang thing you want to do is soar through the sky like a nice juicy clay pigeon. With successive, short controlled jumps, you maintain cover, etc.

Simply put, while many of your ideas have been great, the "can't jump unless you are at 100% charge" cripples mechs far ore than the greater thrust heñlps. So again, thanks, but no thanks.

[Bishop Steiner]

knightsljx, on 02 March 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

so much misconceptions in this thread.

1) Jump Jets are JUMP jets, they aid the mech in jumping. They're not flight boosters. You're not supposed to be able to fly in them, hence you don't lift off when you activate JJs when falling.

2) The distance reported in Sarna is jump DISTANCE, not height.


but yes, Class I JJs need a slight buff, they should perform at least the same as current Class II JJs given the tonnage investment

Yes, jump jets.

Not skip rope jets. Also, show me which mech here in game is jumping the Sarna distance? Uh, NONE? Also, for those who have the sourcebooks, Height IS defined. For every movement point of Jump Jets you can achieve 30 meters of distance, and 1 level of elevation, and 1 level of elevation is defined in all the source material as 6 Meters.

Thus, a Spider, could jump 240 meters in distance, or 48 meters straight up. A Highlander ,90 and 18. respectively.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

Yes, jump jets.

Not skip rope jets. Also, show me which mech here in game is jumping the Sarna distance? Uh, NONE? Also, for those who have the sourcebooks, Height IS defined. For every movement point of Jump Jets you can achieve 30 meters of distance, and 1 level of elevation, and 1 level of elevation is defined in all the source material as 6 Meters.

Thus, a Spider, could jump 240 meters in distance, or 48 meters straight up. A Highlander ,90 and 18. respectively.

I suppose the answer for this depends on interpretation.

We can't jump the listed sarna distances from a standstill.

However I tested last night in my highlander and with max JJs I jumped 110m after a running start (325 engine)

I think being able to do that from a standstill would be fun, but I wonder the implications of adding running inertia to that new thrust.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 March 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 03 March 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

I suppose the answer for this depends on interpretation.

We can't jump the listed sarna distances from a standstill.

However I tested last night in my highlander and with max JJs I jumped 110m after a running start (325 engine)

I think being able to do that from a standstill would be fun, but I wonder the implications of adding running inertia to that new thrust.

wanna redo that with a 270 engine and 3 JJs, aka the "sarna" loadout? Be curious to see.

[CygnusX7]

Good points.
PGI should know that we aren't dogs who after being beaten come back to our master wagging our tails.
Thank you sir may I have another.

[EXO-Scorpion]

jump jets should give 30 meters distance per/ jump jet and NOT be based on speed of mech at take off. jump jets really need a complete re-work IMO.

they should NOT be like : "Snap my fingers and my mech knee jerks like BARRY SANDERS" up in the air at max height and max distance in 1 sec, but they should be BETTER than what we have now!

Edited by ExoScorpion650R, 03 March 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[EXO-Scorpion]

also as an example:

I took my panther into testing grounds. forest colony!

8 jump jets XL200 with speed tweak, 101kph.
full throttle took off at the commando and landed 180-185m from the commando.
I did this 3 times with results of 180-185m

now 8 jump jets, XL225 with speed tweak, 115 kph.
same thing as above, yet results of 205-210m.


WTF? why should I bother taking MAX jump jets when engine size DOMINANTS distance?

Jump jets SHOULD propel you forward 30 meters for EACH jump jet (PERIOD)

[Bishop Steiner]

ExoScorpion650R, on 03 March 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

also as an example:

I took my panther into testing grounds. forest colony!

8 jump jets XL200 with speed tweak, 101kph.
full throttle took off at the commando and landed 180-185m from the commando.
I did this 3 times with results of 180-185m

now 8 jump jets, XL225 with speed tweak, 115 kph.
same thing as above, yet results of 205-210m.


WTF? why should I bother taking MAX jump jets when engine size DOMINANTS distance?

Jump jets SHOULD propel you forward 30 meters for EACH jump jet (PERIOD)

Eh, running momentum is still part of the deal, doesn't bother me. It should add to it. Run that Panther with 4JJs, and I'm willing to bet you don't' get 200 meters.

[DaZur]

Here's my concession... Give JJ's crazy thrust but at the cost of "Gravity is a {Dezgra}".

Part of the reason pop-tarts were as successful prior to the nerf was / is PGI's implementation of gravity and inertia...

Long and short, mechs "floated" too much, allowing for easy shots at apex of jumps and gentle parabolic arches while maneuvering.

You make it so mechs fall out of the sky like bricks when JJ thrust is expended, and you can have all the crash thrust you want...

Balance via "physics" no?

[Mcgral18]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Here's my concession... Give JJ's crazy thrust but at the cost of "Gravity is a {Dezgra}".

Part of the reason pop-tarts were as successful prior to the nerf was / is PGI's implementation of gravity and inertia...

Long and short, mechs "floated" too much, allowing for easy shots at apex of jumps and gentle parabolic arches while maneuvering.

You make it so mechs fall out of the sky like bricks when JJ thrust is expended, and you can have all the crash thrust you want...

Balance via "physics" no?

Opposite works too. No immediate loss of momentum; keep them floating for a second or two.


Sure, it gives them plenty of time to line up a shot, but it also means they are open to just as much incoming fire, rather than just hitscan.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Here's my concession... Give JJ's crazy thrust but at the cost of "Gravity is a {Dezgra}".

Part of the reason pop-tarts were as successful prior to the nerf was / is PGI's implementation of gravity and inertia...

Long and short, mechs "floated" too much, allowing for easy shots at apex of jumps and gentle parabolic arches while maneuvering.

You make it so mechs fall out of the sky like bricks when JJ thrust is expended, and you can have all the crash thrust you want...

Balance via "physics" no?

well, real physics, would include a stall at the top of the trajectory as inertia does not reverse itself, instantly, especially at that mass.

[DaZur]

Mcgral18, on 03 March 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

Opposite works too. No immediate loss of momentum; keep them floating for a second or two.

Sure, it gives them plenty of time to line up a shot, but it also means they are open to just as much incoming fire, rather than just hitscan.

I agree in principle but the reality is the trade-off / offset is not equal IMHO. More float time means an even greater accuracy window for the shooter and marginal response advantage to the pilot returning fire.

Add to that the fact that our 20 to 100 ton mechs already fail to perform commensurate to their implied weight... The last thing we need is for them to be even more floaty.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 March 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

well, real physics, would include a stall at the top of the trajectory as inertia does not reverse itself, instantly, especially at that mass.

Eeeeeh... Maybe for the light mechs but there would not be enough inertia generated for anything heavier than a medium to generate a noticeable apex transition stall.

Edited by DaZur, 03 March 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 02 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I now use mostly lights, but sometimes also mediums, for that purpose. I used to also do it a lot in my Heavy Metal. It's the reason I got one in the first place.

I must look into more JJ capable chassis. My current favorite's are pretty much all ground pounders. Does the new Pack have any JJ capable Mechs in it? (I know, just look it up right but...)

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I agree in principle but the reality is the trade-off / offset is not equal IMHO. More float time means an even greater accuracy window for the shooter and marginal response advantage to the pilot returning fire.

Add to that the fact that our 20 to 100 ton mechs already fail to perform commensurate to their implied weight... The last thing we need is for them to be even more floaty.


Eeeeeh... Maybe for the light mechs but there would not be enough inertia generated for anything heavier than a medium to generate a noticeable apex transition stall.

Fate6 had an interesting take...that there be reticle shake on the up and down side of the jump, and that the only "stable" sho tis for that .5-1 second window at the apex. I think it could work, though I also feel my suggestion to simply extend the shake for a full second after cutting thrust, would also do that job.

DaZur, on 03 March 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

I agree in principle but the reality is the trade-off / offset is not equal IMHO. More float time means an even greater accuracy window for the shooter and marginal response advantage to the pilot returning fire.

Add to that the fact that our 20 to 100 ton mechs already fail to perform commensurate to their implied weight... The last thing we need is for them to be even more floaty.


Eeeeeh... Maybe for the light mechs but there would not be enough inertia generated for anything heavier than a medium to generate a noticeable apex transition stall.

actually not how that works. Greater mass requires more force to move and generates more momentum.