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Lowering The Firestarter's Engine Cap

Started by HlynkaCG, Mar 02 2015 08:56 AM
BattleMechs Balance

132 replies to this topic

#41 Mercules

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 10:54 AM

View PostLordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Be ready for people to hate you, just as they hate me.

I would totally be down for a change to engine rating caps for all of the mechs. (Most would go down, some would go up)

But, people dislike the idea in general.


Edit:


I would like to see this personally.


Locusts
LCT-1E: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1V: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3S: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-PB: 40-160 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)

Commandos
COM-1B: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-1D: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-2D: 50-150 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h) (ECM)
COM-3A: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-DK: 50-200 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Spiders
SDR-5D: 60-240 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)
SDR-5K: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-5V: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-AN: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Urbanmechs
UM-R60: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R60L: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R63: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)

Firestarters
FS9-A: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-E: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-H: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-K: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-S: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)

Jenners
JR7-D: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-F: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-K: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-O: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Panthers
PNT-8Z: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-9R: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-10K: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Ravens
RVN-2X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-3L: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h) (ECM)
RVN-4X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-HG: 70-315 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)


You realize that a Wolverine can outrun most of your proposed engine capped lights, right? It can do that and still carry a decent amount of firepower. Your suggestion is crap. Hell I've built heavies that move faster than the Panther you suggest yet carry 3 times the firepower and armor.

#42 Scendore

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 10:58 AM

Ridiculous... There seems to be no end to folks wanting to nerf mechs they think are too good. A long time ago the Raven 3L was considered overpowered. Sadly PGI tends to go with the folks that can't figure out how to combat a good mech.

On another note that is related. The hit registration and HSR should be revamped. It's pretty clear the Cryengine network code is garbage.

#43 Deathlike

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:00 AM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

As I recall the FS was starting to supplant the JRF as "best light" long before the quirks, the quirkening just turned what had been a fighting retreat into a rout.



That's somewhat accurate but not a complete representation of the issue.

The Ember was considered the best at the time, but not so much now. One of the things it relied on what the MG crit bonus... where you had the lasers to carve people up, and 4 MGs were sufficient in finishing off targets. These days, I don't see many Embers fielded.... which is a more indirect response to the ninja MG nerf that the man shall not be named had a "preemptive nerf" for a MG/hitreg fix. That is the source of the 2-3 MG problems that many are currently suffering from.

The biggest gripe for most/many pilots of the Jenner is the large CT. The problem isn't so much the shape/structure of the mech (although, honestly, it's the #1 factor for Streaks coring Jenners out like candy) is that even "mediocre" players weren't that good at using them effectively. The key thing about Lights is being able to get in, shoot the target, and get out... with minimal retaliation. The Firestarter with its arms allows for shielding AND also torso weapon mounts.. allowing them to be more brazen, reckless, and far more aggressive than your average Light. The Jenner doesn't even have that option. They had to be more cunning, ninja-like aggressive, if not outright squirrelly to be successful.

Back when the Jenner was the primary "meta-Light", the best pilots always screwed with you (and I fight a lot of them, probably not to consistent success) and I understood the necessary requirements of that... even if I wasn't proficient.

In any case... the greater issue is honestly the "L2P" element (and I don't like throwing this around lightly). People aren't honestly thinking about movement, timing... things related to being successful on a consistent basis.

Downplaying a lot of the issues on Lights and just saying "Firestarters need a nerf" is not even trying to analyze, understand, or even comprehend the manner in which to present both sides of the argument. While I see Lights used in CW groups to some degree of success (depending on pilot competency), they are honestly not tapping into the nuances and mostly capitalizing in gross incompetence of many pilots who can't handle or don't know how to handle lights like back when the queues had full reign of 8-man Lights terrorizing the poor Heavies and Assaults that didn't even follow the basic "put your back to the wall".

That is in itself is a L2P-issue first and foremost WAY before we come to the issue that Firestarters "need a nerf". Even while I agree the Firestarters "need a nerf", the conclusions drawn from issues stemming from quirks AND NOT THE WHOLE PICTURE tells me that you don't even understand the issues at hand.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 March 2015 - 11:03 AM.

#44 Lordred

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:02 AM

View PostMercules, on 02 March 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:


You realize that a Wolverine can outrun most of your proposed engine capped lights, right? It can do that and still carry a decent amount of firepower. Your suggestion is crap. Hell I've built heavies that move faster than the Panther you suggest yet carry 3 times the firepower and armor.


You can see my entire list here.

Everyone is welcome to disagree with me, that is fine, just do not make personal attacks on me.

This is what I would want to see, and I am weird.
Spoiler

#45 Sorbic

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:06 AM

View PostSolCrusher, on 02 March 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

I run standards in my Firestarters. It's priceless when the guy i just opened up blows off my shoulder expecting me to fall like a sack of potatoes but I stand there and finish him off while he's over heated. :D


I hate you. (j/k of course)

#46 Mercules

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:08 AM

View PostLordred, on 02 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Everyone is welcome to disagree with me, that is fine, just do not make personal attacks on me.


No one made a personal attack. I pointed out your idea was crap. I didn't comment on who you are, what you do, or how you smell. Now that you have mentioned that you want to limit ALL engines, and not just directly nerf solely lights I can see your idea has some merit, not a lot, but some. If you lower the engine speeds then you best lower the projectile speeds and make lasers not pinpoint or else everyone will die EVEN FASTER than they currently do.

#47 HlynkaCG

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:08 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Do you know WHY I mentioned some of those mechs listed?


Yes, it sounds like you skimmed my points without actually reading any of the rationale, and decided to take offense.

Ultimatum is correct, it is not hard to be the best light mech, when so many other light mechs have bad hard-points, bad quirks, bad hit-boxes etc... But seeing as our hard-points are essentially locked by our stock loadouts, and our hit-boxes by the 3D mesh. How do you justify giving the mech with the best hard-points, and best hit-boxes, a big engine and generous quirks?

Edit:
Balance is about give and take and something has to give.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 02 March 2015 - 11:14 AM.

#48 5LeafClover

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:10 AM

In principle, I find the OP's cap acceptable, but mostly because it's a negligible nerf. XL265 and XL280 are the best engines for FS9 IMO. But heck, I'd even entertain some of Mercules crazy low caps.

There's just one problem; It's not acceptable to expect people to grind for a new engine, just to accommodate a nerf (Pretty sure one of my FS9s came with an XL295).

So in practice, I'm a "No".

#49 Deathlike

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:15 AM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Yes, you wanted to avoid addressing the content of the OP directly, It sounds like you skimmed my points without actually reading any of the rationale, and decided to take offense.


Do you really want me to break down your original post and break down issues in your overall argument? It's not going to be pretty when I do this.


Quote

Ultimatum is correct, it is not hard to be the best light mech, when so many other light mechs have bad hard-points, bad quirks, bad hit-boxes etc... But seeing as our hard-points are essentially locked by our stock loadouts, and our hit-boxes by the 3D mesh. How do you justify giving the mech with the best hard-points, and best hit-boxes, a big engine and generous quirks?


The only Firestarter that got inflated hardpoints IRONICALLY, is the Firestarter-K. The other variants follow their stock hardpoint build outside of the AMS (which every mech gets their own special location).

Quote

Balance is about give and take and something has to give.


Yes, you didn't really make an argument.. your nerf is the INCORRECT response to the actual issue... which primarily IS the quirks.

#50 HlynkaCG

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:17 AM

View Post5LeafClover, on 02 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

There's just one problem; It's nofixt acceptable to expect people to grind for a new engine, just to accommodate a nerf (Pretty sure one of my FS9s came with an XL295).


That's an easy enough fix, if mech has larger engine in it at time of patch, move it to inventory and gift a new engine of the appropriate tonnage.

#51 Nori Silverrage

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:18 AM

It is funny how people think the Firestarter has crazy quirks... Compared to pretty much any medium/heavy the Firestarter is pretty tame.

The -H gets 15% MLas heat and 10% range... Yep so very overpowered...

The -S gets 30% heat for MPLs which may sound crazy, but it gets basically the same Alpha as the -H but at a lower range, less heatsinks, less JJs and no chance of putting in MGs. I have seen people put in 6MPLs but I feel like you have to give up too much for that.

The -A gets 15% SPL range and 10% heat. Again these are pretty basic. SPL's have such horrendous range that they only work effectively on small mechs like this. While the DPS of this mech is high it is pretty much a knife fighter and will die quickly.

The so called "issue" as I see it is that people have a hard time hitting fast moving mechs.
The firestarter chassis as a whole has great hardpoints and isn't 75% leg or torso.
The Jenner has basically no quirks, the Raven has very little for hardpoints, but does have better quirks.

Honestly, people just call anything that is frequently used OP... Maybe they aren't OP, maybe the alternatives are just that bad.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 02 March 2015 - 11:19 AM.

#52 dario03

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:25 AM

I would expect nerfs to FS9 quirks before anything.

But really all that needs to be done is buffs to other lights to let them compete. You know before quirks there was a reason to take a Jenner F over the FS9. It was a better poke mech, better at opening mechs up with hit and run with its high mounted weapons. Just give the jenner some CT armor/structure buffs, and some medium laser quirks for the F and it will again, since the only thing that holds the Jenner back is being a CT on legs.

#53 HlynkaCG

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:31 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Do you really want me to break down your original post and break down issues in your overall argument? It's not going to be pretty when I do this.


Could it really be worse than you playing acting like a querulous tumblr troll? By all means, point out the line in the OP where I personally insulted you.

Quote

The only Firestarter that got inflated hardpoints IRONICALLY, is the Firestarter-K. The other variants follow their stock hardpoint build outside of the AMS (which every mech gets their own special location).


Didn't I say that we cant "nerf" the Firestarter's hard-points because the ones it has are required for it's stock load outs.

Quote

Yes, you didn't really make an argument.. your nerf is the INCORRECT response to the actual issue... which primarily IS the quirks.


Make your case then.

#54 Bigbacon

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:33 AM

i mastered all mine with 245s so it doesn't necessarily need 295s and they can still be very good.

#55 HlynkaCG

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:36 AM

View Postdario03, on 02 March 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

...But really all that needs to be done is buffs to other lights to let them compete.


Which brings up the whole TTK issue, if we buff all light mechs up to the FS-9A's level or better you continue to drive TTK down, and the devs have already said that, they don't want it going any lower than it already is.

#56 dario03

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:40 AM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:


Which brings up the whole TTK issue, if we buff all light mechs up to the FS-9A's level or better you continue to drive TTK down, and the devs have already said that, they don't want it going any lower than it already is.


On which mechs though. The TTK on a Jenner is no where near as long as plenty of other mechs.

#57 terrycloth

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:52 AM

-30% MPL heat is pretty significant.

I used the JR7-F a lot for the adder up challenge because it's still a good mech for sneaking around and killing people from behind. Or above. Or while they're busy shooting someone else. Its main limitation isn't range, or even durability -- it's heat. After firing a couple times I have to run away.

That's why the Ember was always the best firestarter before quirks -- it had so much of its damage in 0-heat machine guns that it never had to run away.

If a Jenner corners you you have to twist to spread two or three shots, and if you survive that then you get a breather. If a Firestarter corners you, it's only going to back off if you actually land some solid hits on it, which is hard when it's at face-hugging range jumping over your head or warping through your body.

#58 HlynkaCG

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:52 AM

View Postdario03, on 02 March 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

On which mechs though. The TTK on a Jenner is no where near as long as plenty of other mechs.


Point being that the Jenner would need some pretty generous quirks to overcome it's natural disadvantages. Seeing as non weapon quirks are still MIA the only real option is firepower and that brings us right back to the infamous "3 second Jenner" from closed beta.

#59 5LeafClover

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 12:00 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:


That's an easy enough fix, if mech has larger engine in it at time of patch, move it to inventory and gift a new engine of the appropriate tonnage.


Sweet! then I'm in.

Just as long as you give me advanced warning so I can max out all my FS9s engines in advance. Kerching!!

#60 dario03

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 12:02 PM

View PostHlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:


Point being that the Jenner would need some pretty generous quirks to overcome it's natural disadvantages. Seeing as non weapon quirks are still MIA the only real option is firepower and that brings us right back to the infamous "3 second Jenner" from closed beta.


I'm not really seeing the issue. increase the TTK a Jenner to a better than CT on legs level while letting it kill other mechs faster seems like a good thing for TTK.
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