181 replies to this topic

[Wingbreaker]

Vocis, on 09 March 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Green Bird Pays
Green Bird Wins
Green Bird thinks self good
Green Bird Posts Haiku
Green Bird thinks self Clever
Person on 7 day rotation
To see clearly
Sees Dunning-Kruger Proven

[Yokaiko]

Vocis, on 09 March 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

CW isn't designed to be fun for IS.

It is designed to sell clan mechs.

Pay2Win baby, that is where the money is.

You do know that the Timber, Hellbringer, Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Dire Wolf, Adder, Kit fox, Warhawk, and Summoner are open to c-bills.

That is EVERY clan drop deck, you coyld chunk that down to Crow, Doggie, Bringer, and Timber really.

Invalid argument is invalid.

Side Step, on 09 March 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Regardless of ecm, IS vs Clan is far from balanced. Having pugged for both, winning with Clan is a breeze compared to the uphill battle that is fighting for IS. It's really painful from the get go, and even worse when you have to endure getting farmed at spaw, feeding the clanners lots of c-bills with zero rewards in our end.

When it's done it's done. If they refuse to go for the objective, it should be possible to 'gg' out of the game without the remainder of our mechs being gifted for them to destroy after it's already over.

Even better of course, would be some balance.

So is that the mech or the four people dropping in champ mechs.

It aint the mechs, I can do a one for one where the IS crushes clan in most reguards.

[Hydrocarbon]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 March 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

It can be cored in two alphas of any reasonable loadout. Keep that in mind, it is one of Mechs you should aim to core, not leg or strip of arms. They must hide because they can't tank well.

I've seen hellbringers last longer than an atlas because of ALL the factores combined. Twice the armor? LOL to whoever said that, lets do some math. Hellbringer's CT has a max of 98 armor, so 147 total w/structure. The Atlas has 124 CR armor, so 186 w/structure. 186/147 = 126% more but lets look at it in a few other ways:

Height: 11.63 armor per meter vs 11.4 armor per meter, Atlas = 2% more armor/height
Tonnage: 1.86 armor per ton vs 2.26 armor per ton, HBR = 21% more armor/ton
Surface area: 1.45 armor per square vs 1.77 armor per square meter, HBR = 22% more armor/surface
(est.: height * 1/2 height; I doubt the HBR is really 22% bigger)
Speed: 0.34 KPH per armor vs 0.61 KPH per armor, HBR = 79% more speed/armor

Hmm, the HBR doesn't appear that weak in comparison, in fact I think those numbers hint at the opposite none to subtly. Then factor in how much easier an Atlas is to hit from it's slower speed & twist. If it peeks from behind a building and starts slowing the instant it's cockpit emerges, it can't even STOP let alone back up before the slowest n00b in the game can point, click, and finish the burn of a c-ERLL.

All together that makes it far inferior vs the HBR. The HBR can peek on occasion to do decent damage, move fast enough to save it's ass, and when someone does fire at it the HBR can twist fast enough to mitigate CT damage if not simply retreat (or both). And before you mention the fact someone can "easily" kill the HBR by taking off both ST's, keep in mind a D-DC may live with only a CT & let but is utterly useless to the team. In fact most missing a ST are worse than a HBR missing a ST since it has less hardpoints.



On to your 2nd point - it takes quite a bit to kill a Hellbringer, much more than "2 alphas" on the average target - they're not always stopped nor directly facing you. I consider myself a fairly deadly player with a 5SS, which has a hefty alpha for the IS, and it takes more than 2 shots to kill the average HBR target. Even quirked MPL's can't pinpoint the damage fast enough for a 65-ton mech with clan-XL speed/acceleration.

Even if I do hurt him bad & he retreats, it's not over. When my 5SS hides, it's just making it easier for the clan to focus on my exposed teammates. When a HBR hides, he's still hurting the enemy. Providing passive damage mitigation from disrupting target locks & adding stealth is worth a LOT more than a loadout of hiding, quirked IS MPL's.

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 17 March 2015 - 02:13 PM.

[Gyrok]

Your argument for 65 ton mechs holds true with jagers and catapults as well...is that a fault of the HBR or a fault of the weight class for having the same max armor?

[ROSS-128]

I've had quite a lot of fun as IS. And I generally prefer going on the Clan front, because there's usually more active attacks going there so it's easier to get into drops. I win quite a bit.

My secret is that I pay attention to what the queue looks like. I'm picky about my drops, I go out of my way to drop with large groups of friendlies. Winning with IS is quite doable as long as you have a good team backing you up. Due to CW's first-come-first-serve battles, once you get in with a group you'll proceed to fight against disorganized pugs most of the time and only run into an opposing organized group occaisonally.

The IS does generally have to work harder for their wins though. When fighting Clans as IS there is less room for error. You cannot get away with dropping a stock mech. You cannot even get away with dropping more than one C-variant trial mech.

An IS team cannot afford to be timid, and cannot afford to get into a poking match with Clans. When your team pushes, EVERYBODY has to put 110% into the push. Twist your torso, manage your face time, make sure your aim is on point. You can win against Clans, but you've got to go in with an optimized build first and then you have to majorly out-play them.

And don't let your guard down even when fighting Clan pugs in trial mechs. Clan stock mechs are much more dangerous than IS stock mechs, and even a bad player can still be very dangerous in a Clan mech if you're not actively exploiting their weaknesses. Force them to spread their damage. Get in their face. Make them overheat. Even when pug-stomping, if you want to win you've got to be on top of your game and out-play the Clanners at every turn.

Also, be aware of your surroundings. Manage lines of sight so you can't get shot by more than 2-3 enemies at a time if possible. Remember that the most common newbie mistake for a Clanner is overheating. Look for overheated mechs and punish that mistake mercilessly. Pay attention to your score feed. If a mech you're shooting suddenly drops off your targeting computer and you didn't get a "killing blow" or "kill assist", he's not dead, he's overheating. FINISH HIM.

[Derick Cruisaire]

I see several posts in this thread talking about how IS beats out Clan in CW. In my experience, which is rather limited as I don't play CW often, this has not been the case. But, let's say it is. I find my self wondering. Why does the CW map look the way it does if IS is not as ineffectual against the Clans as some of you say.

This is not intended as sarcasm or flaming. I am sincerely curious.

[White Bear 84]

Mycrus, on 03 March 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

12 oxides/huggins focusing on legs

Haha this post just made my day. Yes, yes and yes.

The other night took out a direwolk with my Hugiin, the only thing more satisfying is when I do that with a Locust 3M

Edited by White Bear 84, 18 March 2015 - 04:59 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Yep, like I said. Beating Clans is entirely possible. It's even possible to beat them consistently once you've got a group that knows what they're doing together.

But you've got to work for it. You've got to put your war face on and get down to business.

https://youtu.be/ZSS5dEeMX64

[Zeusus]

Derick Cruisaire, on 17 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

I see several posts in this thread talking about how IS beats out Clan in CW. In my experience, which is rather limited as I don't play CW often, this has not been the case. But, let's say it is. I find my self wondering. Why does the CW map look the way it does if IS is not as ineffectual against the Clans as some of you say.

This is not intended as sarcasm or flaming. I am sincerely curious.

Few reasons. Clans generally aren't fighting clans, so they can focus on IS worlds. IS love killing one another. Clans also have larger groups dropping. I rarely see IS groups 4+ in size. Whenever I queue for the attack I see 12 solos from literally every IS faction. And we have pure wolves and usually a few groups.

When I do see a group of IS playing together they always fight well. But they seem as common as leprechauns.

Short story: if IS start grouping up more and stop killing each other clans would be in a world of hurt.

[aniviron]

Derick Cruisaire, on 17 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

I see several posts in this thread talking about how IS beats out Clan in CW. In my experience, which is rather limited as I don't play CW often, this has not been the case. But, let's say it is. I find my self wondering. Why does the CW map look the way it does if IS is not as ineffectual against the Clans as some of you say.

This is not intended as sarcasm or flaming. I am sincerely curious.

Clans are not fighting one another, and are generally fighting one enemy at a time, maybe two. Most IS states are fighting on 3-4 fronts minimum, and defending other states' borders.

But here, the raw numbers for amount of planets gained and lost by faction:
Jade Falcon: +78
Smoke Jaguar: +78
Marik: +68
Wolf: +65
Liao: +55
Ghost Bear: +46
Kurita: -62
FRR: -71
Steiner: -128
Davion: -130

I hear a lot of people who are bleating (disrespectfully, unlike you) about how the clans are obviously OP because they've taken territory instead of just being penned into their little starting areas.

But the data seems to imply something else. Both Marik and Liao are beating several clans in worlds taken because they had the foresight to form non-aggression pacts like the clans did with one another. Both are also exposed to relatively few opponents, so they can concentrate all their forces on pushing in one direction. It's also interesting to note that the faction that has lost the most worlds isn't actually fighting the clans at all, they don't have a front with any clan forces.

A lot of people seem to think that if the game were perfectly balanced, we'd never see any planets change hands, as every side would have an equal chance of winning; but that's completely wrong. It's about force distribution. Notice that every faction that started out small has grown with the exception of the FRR, who were fighting on four fronts at once. If we assume that every faction has a roughly even number of players, all you have to do is a little math to figure out why small factions grow and large ones shrink.

A hypothetical planet controlled by Steiner is being attacked by the Falcons; they have more or less the same number of players on each side. Falcon and Wolf are not attacking one another, and the only worlds that Falcon can attack are two planets in Steiner territory. Steiner, however, is defending against the Falcons, Kuritans, and Marik. Who do you think is going to win, the Falcons or Steiner? The answer is pretty apparent- you can tell based on the way the map looks right now. Have you noticed that as the clans have gotten larger, their progress has slowed quite a bit as well? They're still the smallest factions, with the exception of the FRR, however, and the non-aggression pacts seem to be holding up.

Finally, there is probably a small imbalance between clan and IS forces. I would ballpark the clan winrate at slightly over 50%; in disorganized play of 12 solo players vs 12 solo players, the clan forces win more often thanks largely to the Timberwolf and Stormcrow; but in 12v12 groups, the IS wins more often as they are fielding highly optimized mechs running strategies that can win quickly. This is undoubtedly a factor in the CW map change and it would be silly to deny it- but that's not the driving force behind the clan expansion.

[ThrashInc]

Derick Cruisaire, on 17 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

I see several posts in this thread talking about how IS beats out Clan in CW. In my experience, which is rather limited as I don't play CW often, this has not been the case. But, let's say it is. I find my self wondering. Why does the CW map look the way it does if IS is not as ineffectual against the Clans as some of you say.

This is not intended as sarcasm or flaming. I am sincerely curious.

Having circled the IS before switching, it's due to bad mechs, bad pilots, bad loadouts, and trial mechs.

I get the same damage/game now that I'm clan as I did as IS. If you think about that statement, even though I'm winning more against all of the factors I stated above, I'm not doing more damage. You could argue this is because on the IS side my teammates are (in my experience) worse and I'm able to pick up more damage that they don't...but I recall wasting more mechs due to bad teammates than anything else. I just happened to be able to pump out a lot (more) of damage in the time I was alive.

I ran a Stalker-4N, Thunderbolt-9S, Firestarter-9S, and a Wolverine-6K.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I am an IS-only player that plays probably 80 percent CW. There isn't a game that goes by that I have NO fun at all. Even while getting stomped, I'm trying my damndest to nail shots and slag clanners. I'll always try to win, and lead in whatever capacity I feel like at the time.

Yes, clanners appear to have more organized groups and overall skill, with IS having many newer players trying out CW in trials.

It is nice to see those people improve day after day, though. I see the same folks, and they start to react better to proper strategies, and play better independently.

However, it must be noted that I have masochistic tendencies, I'll ALWAYS sign up for the most difficult faction in any game. I have so much more enjoyment out of even a 20-48 match if we were a pub group giving our damndest to some -MS- guys or other hardcore folks. And when you pull out a win, it's a complete nerd-gasm.

I firmly believe the fault does NOT lie in balancing mechs and tonnage. The two sides simply play differently. I would actually say that clan plays easier but IS has more potential and a higher skill-cap. Clans are able to confidently win most long-range engagements, and the first instinct of a new player is to engage in them. I see plenty of poor suckers shooting off medium laser boats at 500m, hitting every shot, but likely not realizing they are doing as much damage as a single IG guardsman in WH40k. However, if you place a skilled pilot in an IS mech, they will utilize its ungodly knife-fight potential, and likely come out on top.

That is given that their team is competent. I would say that between perfectly equally skilled opponents, and proper "meta" loadouts on both sides, IS would win more times.

This means that you have a few options to enjoy IS-only play

a) Be fortunate that you're a sort of player that will have fun with any game you choose to play. The most unlikely option, but I'm lucky on that.

d ) Find another (hopefully not something stupid like rushing in 3 lights and an LRM atlas) style of play to have more fun.

c) Choose planets to attack/defend CAREFULLY. Of course, you should follow your house's leadership ideally, but that should NOT be gospel. If you KNOW that you are a middling or below-average pilot, or you have a group with these types of players, it is VERY unwise to fight in a planet you suspect may have a 12 man on it. You see a planet go from 2 defenders to 12 in 1 second? Might not want to head there unless you KNOW you'll have a confident group to contest them. I'm an immersion/lore fan, and also very interested in organization in CW, but I will always maintain that a good, fun game is more important than the map in most cases.

d) Try to teach and train the newer players. This'll give you something to occupy yourself, and also invest in the future so you don't have to do it anymore.

If ALL of these fail, I have only one more suggestion for fun.

Never play sober.

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 19 March 2015 - 11:47 PM.

[Gyrok]

Derick Cruisaire, on 17 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

I see several posts in this thread talking about how IS beats out Clan in CW. In my experience, which is rather limited as I don't play CW often, this has not been the case. But, let's say it is. I find my self wondering. Why does the CW map look the way it does if IS is not as ineffectual against the Clans as some of you say.

This is not intended as sarcasm or flaming. I am sincerely curious.

Because most of the organized IS units are fighting each other, and Organized groups beat PUGs continually on the clan front. We stomp PUGs, but when we run into groups like NS we get a tough fight and it can go either way. When we run into groups like MS/228, etc. we lose our fair share, and win some as well...so...the Clans present a united front, and help each other out where they can.

[Hydrocarbon]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Your argument for 65 ton mechs holds true with jagers and catapults as well...is that a fault of the HBR or a fault of the weight class for having the same max armor?

READ the quote I was responding to. You're deflecting, as most clanners do but I'll take the bait:

Both the mechs you list can be cut down to almost nothing by taking their arms, and most builds with a ST - and both of them have HUGE ST's. The hitbox to take down a HBR is a tiny strip in comparison. I'd put money that 3x Hellbringers would take down an Atlas/Jager/Catapult 90% of the time, presuming the same level of skill & same level of build quality.

[Yokaiko]

Hydrocarbon, on 25 March 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

READ the quote I was responding to. You're deflecting, as most clanners do but I'll take the bait:

Both the mechs you list can be cut down to almost nothing by taking their arms, and most builds with a ST - and both of them have HUGE ST's. The hitbox to take down a HBR is a tiny strip in comparison. I'd put money that 3x Hellbringers would take down an Atlas/Jager/Catapult 90% of the time, presuming the same level of skill & same level of build quality.

Come at me in an Atlas with a Hellbringer, you have about 6 seconds till you are shooting back with a single head mounted laser.

Even better a Stalker, while I weld that left torso off and neuter you laughing about it, at least the Atlas has the randomness of SRM hit reg to worry about with my Stalkers its not a question.

Edited by Yokaiko, 25 March 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[Euphoric1RW]

SolCrusher, on 03 March 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Clans need something done. NERF THEM!

They did nerf them and nerf them, when are people going to be happy and have fun. It is not the mech it is the pilot. You are free to play any mech you want, quit whining, getting old!

Edited by Vance Rezak, 25 March 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[Repasy Cooper]

PappySmurf, on 25 March 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hate to tell you OP but CW is not fun for anyone but the 12 man teams feasting on all the baby seals its just a dam joke.

<GROSS IMAGE>

P.S don't ask me how to fix MWO or CW after 3 years of seeing this game become a total abortion nothing anyone can say will help the devs have ear plugs and they don't want to listen to any of us.

WTF is up with that image??? How does that gore have any relevance here? Please remove that ****, it's disgusting man.

Edited by Repasy, 25 March 2015 - 09:45 PM.

[Mar-X-maN]

CW is not much fun at all. Conquest / Assault / Skirmish with Pugs only is the best most varied gameplay still. And those are the most boring concepts to begin with. Really for a multiplayer online game there was not much thought put into this. Its like Counterstrike 1.6 all over again. One weapon of choice, three ways to go, one place to go to. No gameplay evolution at all and no credit to the Mechwarrior franchise. The only thing this game has going for it is shiny mechs and effects. Frikking ideas of balance like its the holy grail of gameplay. They could have done so much more creative stuff that is interesting to experience.
Take a clue from Titanfall, Evolve, Left 4 Dead, even Battlefield just to name a few. I really regret financing this cheese fest. There are enough of mouse and keyboard twitch shooters COD style out there. This could and should have been something different. And all the insults and being looked down upon because I am playing with joystick as it should be and thus cant match the pinpoint accuracy of a mouse just rubs salt into the wound. Really disappointed with this product.

Edited by Mar X maN, 26 March 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[Shoot someone else]

I have never played a lot of CW. I quit a month or three back due to some bad groups. A lot of what people already mentioned. Mainly not pushing when needed.

With that said, I had some fun before. Hitting the generators, using terrain, hitting the gun on attacks. It was tough against clans but doable. Defending wasn't really a problem against clans. You just had to play smart and have others doing the same.

Again, that others playing smart is a large part of it. While it is funny at end game to watch one or two players who are still on thier first or second mech due to not wanting to mix it up at all, it is sad.

I tried CW again this week. First match was defending against clans. Tough fight but we did it. Second fight was attacking. I wondered why the gates were open but it didn't matter as no rush was conjured and most died in a blaze of laser fire before they got to the gates.

The last game however, really pointed out the issue. We grouped up. The usual Timberwolves and Stormcrows and Dire Wolves are waiting. The rush starts. The first mech in his hit by what looked like a wall of laser fire and goes down. Goodbye one Crab. A Centurion behind him dies about 1.5 seconds later. I'm in an ECM Spider dodging around. I see "red" kills "Blue" over and over. The push falters because of the amount of laser and PPC fire the clans can put out is just stupid.
I think, hey, no problem. I'll just go around and attack the Omega target. I do so, am damaging it while lookig out for some clanners to come stop me and I notice my team is giving me hell. Apparently there is no way to actually take the base, you just have to kill more defending clan mechs as attacking IS mechs?

That's just redicuously stupid.

So, I think i'm back to playing two to four regular matches in the time it takes to play one CW match. Mutch more fun overall and much more rewarding in CBills and XP.

Just my two shiny pennies.

[Zeusus]

For a clan vs is perspective..

We charge through the gates and see the usual firestarters stalkers and thunderbolts. One by one we go down under a wall of PPC and LL fire. Bye bye one hellbringer.

It seems to only way to win is to kill more IS mechs than attacking clan mechs as there is no way to take the actual base.

Funny how one sided biases work eh? Try the other side sometime. Its not all you think it is.