59 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Who didn't see this coming?

I haven't played CW for a VERY long time, it was crap back then, it's equally crap, now, but there may be a way to fix at least one crappy thing in it. Allow me to explain...

Played my first game for CW in a long time, today, with a good old friend who's relatively new to MWO, despite all of my caterwalling to get him into the game since 2011, and so we dropped on Sulfurous Rift, a Defense game... We didn't have a horrible setup, actually, but all of us were PUGs, which everyone knows is a recipe for disaster, to begin with. However, I noticed something somewhat different, today...

Spawn Camping.

The bad guys knocked down the generator at Alpha, and bum-rushed until they were able to surround our drop points. I started off the game in my Catapult C4, died fairly quickly compared to how I have in the past, and then I dropped in my Kintaro 18 and died within ten seconds of the drop. Then, I dropped in my BattleMaster Hellslinger, and died even faster than that. Finally, my Jenner Sarah's. These 'Mechs have been tried and true, and the fact I may die in them regularly doesn't mean they or I are ineffective, it just means better pilots, or more pilots, get the drop on me and I die. No biggie, move onto the next game. However, when 'Mech death is less than ten seconds on each of three 'Mechs, that's pretty dumb.

PGI, here are two ways to fix this problem...

1) Moving drop points. If there is 100 tons or more of bad guys within 100 meters of a drop point, the DropShip gets shunted to one that's not covered with bad guys. If all of a team's spawn points are covered, the spawn points swap, because at that point it's become a counter-attack mission.

2) Actual objective based combat -requiring larger maps. That's right, I said it. You need to have an attacker drop point, or three, hidden from enemy view, but that can be discovered during the course of the game; this, of course, would require random points be placed around the map, and the site chosen is, as well, random. Make larger maps and do NOT centralize one or more objectives, make those random, as well, with corresponding drop points for the defenders. What you have now, on all maps, is an unacceptable kluge, there is no mystery, no planning, only bashing, because the bad guys KNOW where these things are, and KNOW how to take down the gates super quickly, and then rush in.

CW is NOT fun, especially for those of us who would actually like to prepare a defense, run tactics and strategy. It is more fun to do the random PUG matches, right now, and THAT, my friends, is saying something.

[Wingbreaker]

That team was stacked as ****, dude.

Edit: I feel like I should explain. What you saw was at once indicative that the map has serious issues (It is way too damn easy to camp c2) and simultaneously not indicative of 'normal' play within CW.

To say that that match was unfair is possibly the understatement of the century. You were facing three Lords, three BSMC, two KCOM and myself. Unfortunately, that is the reality of CW as an open queue. If you pug in it, you must be willing to suffer the tribulations of skill-gap (I experience the occasional face-stomping myself as well).

I most certainly wouldn't bring a new player in to it, and think that PGI should make it VERY VERY obvious to those new players that they are stepping out of the 'safe place' that is normal play.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 07 March 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[ice trey]

You said it yourself, you were dropping as a pug, not a group. There's your first problem. Unless you were actively using VOIP, you are digging your own grave.

You are actually able to change where you drop, however, you have to change which lance you're in. Charlie, Bravo, and Alpha always drop in the same spots. Simply use the Company Command option to select where you'll be dropping.

As for the spawn camping, this is because going directly for the win as an attacker offers very poor rewards. The only time where it's not a good idea to spawncamp is when you are trying to capture those last few blocks of territory prior to ceasefire.

Defense against clans is always a poor selection for a pug. To attack, only players from the same faction can attack together. This more than likely means that a 12-man gathered together to attack. Even the most nominal voicecoms can blow the most skilled pugs out of the water.

If you're trying to introduce your friend to a game that puts emphasis on organized team play and good communication, and then you do the opposite, you're the only one to blame if your friend doesn't like it. A new player should be trying out the public drops first, anyway.

You can do defenses on any map quite easily, even against clans. I use teamspeak and even though I'm not a part of an organized unit, I manage to win regularly by playing under team leadership. There are easier and harder maps to defend on, but any map allows for the use of tactics, defensive formations, offensive formations, so on and forth.

...but Inner sphere pugs holding off the clans is the most obvious example of why it's necessary. Clanners routinely chew through inner sphere pugs who're just looking to get the fastest drops possible, so they shun teamspeak. Organized teams rarely even bother trying to defend those worlds because for each time we hold off an attack, the pugs lose another five for us. Even a nominal glance at the map can show you how helpful pug defenses have been.

Edited by ice trey, 07 March 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[Threat Doc]

ice trey, EVERYTHING you just said... is part of the problem. None of it should be the way it is, period. But, it is, and it's piss-poor design that it is that way.

[UberStuka]

catapult and kintaro = nuff said u would have never made it even if the match was true attrition

edit: not to be a ******* but anyone who runs CW enough knows u defend C2 to the death with direct fire(your deck suggest LRMS). any PUG is doomed when C2 is taken. also you have stated you haven't ran CW in a while so I would assume you wouldn't know the tactics of sulforis

Edited by UberStuka, 07 March 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Threat Doc]

UberStuka, I have always done fine in those 'Mechs. Each person has 'Mechs they can work in, and others they cannot. However, what you've stated, there, is another part of the troubles with this game. There should NOT be a single tactical set used on ANY map in the game; that's a problem.

[Gas Guzzler]

Spawn camping needs to be met with aggression, not sitting in the back tossing LRMs.

I'm sorry but you need to drop with more coordination and more optimized loadouts. You can use LRMs if that is what you like, but when you play against good players you will be at a huge disadvantage. LRMs are good against disorganized pugs, but when you go against a solid group they are not as good as direct fire. There is not one single tactic that works, so I'm not sure if it is a problem. The goal is to not get beat so hard when they push in.

[Threat Doc]

So, Guzzler, what you're telling me is, you have perfect control over those things, and don't see anything there as a problem?

[jeirhart]

For any newer players getting into CW there are a few things you really should know that all the experience players use to their advantage:

1. The first twelve man to be built and sitting in queue decides whether it will be an Attack or Counter-attack (depending on if your faction is attacking/defending planet). The only exception to this is when there are currently no sectors to attack or counter attack due to 0%, 100% or all if them currently being fought over.

2. Which map you will get is based on which sector is being fought over. There is rumored to be certain planets with only one map type but I have yet to hear of any of these being confirmed. Starting from the left and counting the sectors around circle:
1, 4, 7, 10, 13 are all Boreal Vault
2, 5, 8, 11, 14 are all Sulfurous Rift
3, 6, 9, 12, 15 are all Hellebore Springs

3. With the knowledge of #2 in mind, build your drop decks appropriately if possible. Maybe short range brawler decks for Sulfurous Rift with long range for Boreal Vault and a mix of the two for Hellebore Springs. While some 'mechs do fine on any map, LRM boats for example will not excel on Sulfurous Rift as much as they may on Boreal Vault.

4, A pug team can be carried by a few good players against another pug team or lower-skilled premade team. Do not rely on this unless you are the hard carry yourself. A premade team working together on comms will have a distinct advantage against pure pugs. A hard carry can have bad games too.

5. Most premade teams attacking on Sulfurous Rift will go after Alpha (top) and occasionally Gamma (bottom) but almost never Bravo (middle). On Boreal most will go Alpha (bottom) and around to E6 but failing that will go Bravo (top) and move center or up the top side. Hellebore Springs is again usually Alpha (top) but occasionally Bravo.

6. Pugs will crumble if you drive at them in a group. Self-preservation will override any sense of team unity. The pug instinct is to sit behind cover and take shots at enemy when they show themselves. If your team keeps moving, the enemy team can not get comfortable.

7. All factions have super-fast attack tactics that they may use to secure planets quickly. Defending against these tactics as a pug is nearly impossible and you may want to avoid defending a planet unless you know it will be a counter-attack.

8. A desperate pug will bum rush you if you get too close and while you may kill him, will do tremendous damage to you. It happens, use caution.

9. If the queue says 12/12 that means there are two teams currently fighting on a planet. If it says 12/24 then there are two teams fighting and another team waiting in 'ghost drop queue' for the next 10 minutes after which they will get a turret drop 'free win' (unless there are no sectors to fight over). If a queue says 12/36 then there are two teams fighting, one team either in a turret drop or still waiting 10 minutes with yet another group waiting for that ghost drop to finish or waiting for that group ahead of them to get a ghost drop. There CAN NOT be more than a single ghost drop queued at the same time. For each twelve man beyond the first 12 without an opponent, no match is created until the previously twelve man has finished waiting their 10 minutes and is in the turret drop on the map. You will have to wait another 10 minutes in addition to the time you were waiting for the previous 12 man to drop. This means that units can not simply queue up eight 12 mans right before ceasefire to guarantee they capture the planet via ghost drops as any team that has not been set for a match prior to ceasefire starting will be kicked from queue.

10. Community Warfare is in Beta. Bugs will happen. Wipes will happen. Updates will happen. Find a map/mode that fits your playstyle and experiment. If you are not having fun, report your feedback to the developers and go get some pub queue drops in instead.

Edited by jeirhart, 08 March 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kay Wolf, on 07 March 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

So, Guzzler, what you're telling me is, you have perfect control over those things, and don't see anything there as a problem?

If there is a problem with anything, it is just the map design of that map. As soon as you enter the base, you are basically in their spawn. But it is preventable by not letting them push into the base so easily. Good teams don't get spawn camped and there is a reason for that. I don't exactly understand what you are asking.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

OP, CW is to MWO what End-Game Boss Raids are to WoW. Make sure you have the right stuff and have it up to snuff before launching into queue.

Gas Guzzler, on 07 March 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

If there is a problem with anything, it is just the map design of that map. As soon as you enter the base, you are basically in their spawn. But it is preventable by not letting them push into the base so easily. Good teams don't get spawn camped and there is a reason for that. I don't exactly understand what you are asking.

I haven't been spawn camped even solo pugging.

[Ace Selin]

I actually don't mind the idea of mobile spawn points after the first drop, but I would like to choose my spawn from the three available. It would at least help the situation.

[dervishx5]

We can't have bigger maps because of the scaling issues.

[Vxheous]

Kay Wolf, on 07 March 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

UberStuka, I have always done fine in those 'Mechs. Each person has 'Mechs they can work in, and others they cannot. However, what you've stated, there, is another part of the troubles with this game. There should NOT be a single tactical set used on ANY map in the game; that's a problem.

You brought crappy mechs to Community warfare, and on top of that, a brand new player, what do you expect was going to happen?

[Nightshade24]

I wish I have the luck of being a clanner chewing threw IS pugs.

it may mean out of my few hundred of matches I had so far it may mean I have more then 20 wins...

It sucks winning a CW match doing nothing but rushing through first, 2nd, and third wave of mechs in ice ferrets to get a win only to get like 50,000 c-bills with premium account... Hence why I preffer the normal trio of assault/ conquest / skirmish over invasion...

I liked it on the first few days but then the meta sphere rolled in.




On topic with spawn camping... I wish dropships had the full load out and not what is left with the gimped load...

[Pat Kell]

Bases have turrets and dropships have m lasers to help assist in your defense. If you get spawn camped with that much added fire power on your side, I suspect the outcome of the match was a forgone conclusion. Guzzler is correct though, stop sitting in the back and letting your friends get spawn camped. If you see the enemy pushing in to the spawn area, throw yourself at them with reckless abandon and hope for the best. otherwise it will be 8v12 real soon.

[Vassago Rain]

Kay Wolf, on 07 March 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

ice trey, EVERYTHING you just said... is part of the problem. None of it should be the way it is, period. But, it is, and it's piss-poor design that it is that way.

But it's totally a beta.

That's why obvious flaws like this haven't been changed in 80 some days.

[YCSLiesmith]

OP you're right that one loss doesn't mean your mechs are ineffective. however your mechs suck. They are a joke and you are starting off with a real disadvantage.

Spawn camping happens when there is a massive disparity in skill between two groups. no one ever got spawn camped who was beating the other team, or even mostly even. You were getting smoked. Now, you may feel that it's no fun to get smoked that hard, but the only solution that doesn't ruin the game for players with skill is for you to get good.

CW is not for pugs. It is a unit based game. if you're in a half decent unit that coordinates well and organizes each wave you can win a lot of the time with trial mechs, or your terrible mechs. It seems like you didn't do that at all, just got smoked and trickled out until the enemy got to your spawn point and started eating you alive.

The guys you were playing were head and shoulders better than you. When you step onto a field with a bunch of guys you met down the pub and the other team is an organized group that plays and practices together all the time, your loss is pretty much a foregone conclusion. the solution is not to change the rules of the game to even the odds. This isn't mario party. Get. Good.

Edited by YCSLiesmith, 08 March 2015 - 04:35 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

I notice you are in house Kurita. I happen to know for a fact that the house kurita teamspeak is very active, and you can often find a group of highly skilled players to drop with. NS is great and will teach you skills. NKVA is an exclusive cool guys only club but we've dropped with strangers before. There are many people who will bring you along in this game mode, help you figure out what mechs work best for what CW roles, and while I can't promise you'll never get rolled again, I can promise that it's never happened to me while i was with those guys.

[YCSLiesmith]

Kay Wolf, on 07 March 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

UberStuka, I have always done fine in those 'Mechs. Each person has 'Mechs they can work in, and others they cannot. However, what you've stated, there, is another part of the troubles with this game. There should NOT be a single tactical set used on ANY map in the game; that's a problem.

lmao you've not always done fine in those mechs. for example, you recently did so badly in those mechs that the enemy were able to walk into your spawn and kill you as you dropped.