270 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

RE: Mods blossoming into full-blown viable products.

Let's be clear... Out of the several hundred MODs that sprung from [insert game here] only a finite handful of them ever had the following and maturity level that garnered any serious consideration by any of the triple-A publishing houses.

That said, while I think it kind'a foolish to argue whether MW:LL was a good / well-liked MOD... history shows it had potential. Even knowing that, considering it's length of development and clearly opportunities presented, I'm not hearing that any pubs were (yet) interested in taking it up. As someone mentioned earlier, it's greatest stumbling block was that being a MOD, it required some iteration of Crysis legal or not and the fortitude to muck about with configurations files and it could not stand on it's own.

[CyclonerM]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

You can go down the list of game devices and items and see, where passion matters. PGI has a more stable game with more polish, but no soul. MWLL had almost no polish and was hacked together to make it function, but it had a soul.

dimachaerus, on 09 March 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Personally I'd kill to be able to pull tanks and Aerospace in MWO. Poptarts weren't an issue when you could sort them out with artillery or a coordinated airstrike. I was one of those guys who'd spend a the start of the match in an Uller till I could afford a "Beatstick" Shiva (for the record, an assault class Omnifighter with twin LBX20's and twin LBX10's) and go on a wrecking spree destroying poptart after poptart by coring their inattentive so-sniper-leet-badasses from behind. They would then rage complaining how "air is soooo OP!" but they'd never bother to actually get in either a mech or tank that was proficient at AA duty.

Now, tell me why would you take that Shiva when you could take the configuration with two Gauss rifles..

It always gave me satisfactions, especially in a very close air duel during a Clan aerospace tournament, ask Star Captain Vincent

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Homeless Bill save us before its too late.

Seyla!

Edited by CyclonerM, 09 March 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 09 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

However it was the gameplay and function that made those titles succesful. I understand the mod aspect, but you're selecting a certain aspect of a succesful title to use it as a defense to your argument, which is not entirely true.

Context.

It wasnt (well it was, its complicated) and thats what I was saying. Yes the CORE mechanics were fantastic, and thats why they were successful but when they had nothing BUT those core mechanics (with bad maps, bad models, half the guns, no body armor or helmets, hostage rescue was the only mode) it wasnt NEARLY as successful as when it was 'polished'. As I said the number of people playing CS BEFORE Valve polished it was FAR below than when AFTER they polished it. Core mechanics dont make a game. At least not to players. Core mechanics should impress other industry people. (which is why PGI asked them to stop short of being better than MWO)

So the argument is, MWO should be a polished MWLL, because MWLL's core mechanics are fantastic. Its the rest of it that needed polish.

Thats understandable right? Maybe im crazy and that doesnt make sense to most people.

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 March 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

It also wasn't build server-side authoritative like MWO was, and therefore could get away with things that MWO can't.

Of course, that also makes it far more vulnerable to cheating, which is exactly what you'd have gotten plenty of had MWLL ever made it to Steam like you wish.




And there you have the reason for MWLL's inferior popularity. To put it simply, it's the silent majority again. Being the only game where you can jump into your favorite mech, drop right into instant action, and enjoy GOOD-LOOKING gameplay is a huge part of MWO's appeal. In fact, it IS MWO's appeal. For all the complaining about MWO's elegance and design from the ivory-tower sim-snobs around here, there are more people who want good effects and instant gratification than "emergent gameplay" and "tactical complexity".

You want to succeed in today's marketplace, you need to have the boxes checked that MWO currently has checked. I would guess that this explains a great deal of MWO's course changes since Closed Beta, particularly those involving 3PV, consumables, map design, and even lack of gameplay. They're building a foundation on "instant action", after which they can start addressing the hardcore players with their demands for complicated "keep out the CoD kiddies" gameplay.

What would I pull out of MWLL's toolbox for use in MWO? Not a damned thing until PGI goes on Steam and has the player stream necessary to split the queues realistically between the purists and the "GUD GRAPHIX NA0" crowd. Then start releasing maps like MWLL and cranking out new game modes.

MWO's state, development, and history is rife with poor decisions, lies, position changes, scummy behavior, outright mistakes, and ridiculous sagas that defy logic.

Look at transverse, for instance. What if they'd put that money into making MWO better, rather than try to ride Braben and Roberts' coat tails? Who in management okayed the project? Who thought it'd be a good idea to devote most of 2014 to developing it? Why did Bryan make so many outright ridiculous claims and outlandish posts everywhere?

This game that we're all occasionally playing is really a relic of a past age. It's from the era of minimally viable F2P games, that someone thought should be on the most taxing engine that existed at the time. It was then decided that all the cool things the engine provides would be scrapped, so MWO could run on ancient dual cores and AMD APUs.

Now in 2015, they're seemingly focused on shoving their relic of a beta game onto steam, for a last attempt at some income and more players. CW's development seemingly ended the moment it was released, having only received token polish patches for about 90 days. Zerg rushes and clan robots still dominate the mode, and it's proven very unpopular.

In fact, the lack of popularity, and need to get on steam, is probably why it's been so long since they added anything to it.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 09 March 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[KraftySOT]

When did anyone bring up Steam?

[dimachaerus]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Now, tell me why would you take that Shiva when you could take the configuration with two Gauss rifles..

Because I am an old school NBT Kell-Hound, and we have an almost unhealthy relationship with LBX's in any form. The dual H-gauss shiva was pimp as hell though, especially for rear-armoring inattentive AA tanks.

[KraftySOT]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

MWO's state, development, and history is rife with poor decisions, lies, position changes, scummy behavior, outright mistakes, and ridiculous sagas that defy logic.

Look at transverse, for instance. What if they'd put that money into making MWO better, rather than try to ride Braben and Roberts' coat tails? Who in management okayed the project? Who thought it'd be a good idea to devote most of 2014 to developing it? Why did Bryan make so many outright ridiculous claims and outlandish posts everywhere?

This game that we're all occasionally playing is really a relic of a past age. It's from the era of minimally viable F2P games, that someone thought should be on the most taxing engine that existed at the time. It was then decided that all the cool things the engine provides would be scrapped, so MWO could run on ancient dual cores and AMD APUs.

Off topic slightly, CCP cant even figure out how to combat RSI's vaporware, how could PGI ever think they could do it?

[Rebas Kradd]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Look at transverse, for instance. What if they'd put that money into making MWO better, rather than try to ride Braben and Roberts' coat tails?

It's already been explained numerous times, by Russ and by those actually familiar with game development, that it's not financially smart for a studio to put their eggs in one basket. Most studios develop multiple games because it actually REDUCES on overhead costs.

If you want to keep being willfully ignorant of the realities of the software industry, go ahead.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

When did anyone bring up Steam?

russ several time.. Steamers will diss this grindy and overpriced game sooo fast. And yet ppl hope for new players and a milestone in mwo history with it. Quite the opposite might happen

[Vassago Rain]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's already been explained numerous times, by Russ and by those actually familiar with game development, that it's not financially smart for a studio to put their eggs in one basket. Most studios develop multiple games because it actually REDUCES on overhead costs.

If you want to keep being willfully ignorant of the realities of the software industry, go ahead.

Making another really bad, outlandish game, that no one wants, isn't gonna help things...

And in the end, they were forced to go back to this one, so what was the point?

[KraftySOT]

And the quality drop in MWO thats a bummer.

On one hand, I liked the few cool things the Crysis engine can do that were stripped. I have an awesome computer.

On the other hand. Neckbeards dont have an awesome computer, and theyre at least half of our community. So by dropping quality, you potentially could have gotten more Neckbeards. But you wont get the Neckbeards with nothing more than Team Deathmatch and endless Pokemon of their favorite mechs, no matter how many vertices your models have.

[dimachaerus]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 09 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

russ several time.. Steamers will diss this grindy and overpriced game sooo fast. And yet ppl hope for new players and a milestone in mwo history with it. Quite the opposite might happen

Hey, maybe we'll have servers hosted by Steam instead of wherever PGI does it. That'd be a marked improvement in my book.

[DaZur]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's already been explained numerous times, by Russ and by those actually familiar with game development, that it's not financially smart for a studio to put their eggs in one basket. Most studios develop multiple games because it actually REDUCES on overhead costs.

If you want to keep being willfully ignorant of the realities of the software industry, go ahead.

It's not just software... Virtually any production facility be it digital bit or iron and steel, run parallel production lines to float loans between them as necessary....

[Vassago Rain]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

And the quality drop in MWO thats a bummer.

On one hand, I liked the few cool things the Crysis engine can do that were stripped. I have an awesome computer.

On the other hand. Neckbeards dont have an awesome computer, and theyre at least half of our community. So by dropping quality, you potentially could have gotten more Neckbeards. But you wont get the Neckbeards with nothing more than Team Deathmatch and endless Pokemon of their favorite mechs, no matter how many vertices your models have.

It's 2015. No one uses dual cores and DDR2 RAM anymore. Not even BRs and russians use that.

[KraftySOT]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

It's 2015. No one uses dual cores and DDR2 RAM anymore. Not even BRs and russians use that.

Ouch. I avoid those Russians and BRs like the plague. They ruin everything.

So...we can have our spiral missiles and armor chipping back right?

Right?

My inverse kinematics?

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 March 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

It's already been explained numerous times, by Russ and by those actually familiar with game development, that it's not financially smart for a studio to put their eggs in one basket. Most studios develop multiple games because it actually REDUCES on overhead costs.

If you want to keep being willfully ignorant of the realities of the software industry, go ahead.

Then dont be silly to jump into a competition with more talented and passionated guys than you are. What did we all think when we heard about transfail? A cheap copy to benefit from the space sim hype

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 09 March 2015 - 02:11 PM.

[Heffay]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 09 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

russ several time.. Steamers will diss this grindy and overpriced game sooo fast. And yet ppl hope for new players and a milestone in mwo history with it. Quite the opposite might happen

Even if the Steam audience rejects MWO 100% without ever putting in a single dime (a laughable proposition, but hey, let's go with it for arguments sake), why would that result in a drop in current player crop they are working with?

Even if Steam is a complete flop, MWO *still* is commercially successful for PGI. It just means more of the status quo as far as making money.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Heffay, on 09 March 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Even if the Steam audience rejects MWO 100% without ever putting in a single dime (a laughable proposition, but hey, let's go with it for arguments sake), why would that result in a drop in current player crop they are working with?

Even if Steam is a complete flop, MWO *still* is commercially successful for PGI. It just means more of the status quo as far as making money.

For how long? Do you think threads like this just show up because the game is great?

[Vassago Rain]

Heffay, on 09 March 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Even if the Steam audience rejects MWO 100% without ever putting in a single dime (a laughable proposition, but hey, let's go with it for arguments sake), why would that result in a drop in current player crop they are working with?

Even if Steam is a complete flop, MWO *still* is commercially successful for PGI. It just means more of the status quo as far as making money.

Same reason hawken died. When the last ace fails, people tend to realize it's not gonna get any better, and they leave.

[Sylonce]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

And there you have the reason for MWLL's inferior popularity. To put it simply, it's the silent majority again. Being the only game where you can jump into your favorite mech, drop right into instant action, and enjoy GOOD-LOOKING gameplay is a huge part of MWO's appeal. In fact, it IS MWO's appeal. For all the complaining about MWO's elegance and design from the ivory-tower sim-snobs around here, there are more people who want good effects and instant gratification than "emergent gameplay" and "tactical complexity".

I think my words were taken the wrong way when I said MWLL felt weird and is a game I couldn't just jump into.

To give MWLL where credit is due, it is a very in-depth game with a lot of passion placed into it's development, and a game that really innovated Mechwarrior in almost untold ways. That is the only reason why I made the statement that I did.

No, I think the primary reason MWLL is not as popular as it should have been is because that it is a mod. On top of that, it was a mod for Crysis, which was one of the most demanding game on PC hardware at the time. I believe at some point, it also required the expansion pack--Crysis Warhead and it's multiplayer platform.

Edited by Sylonce, 09 March 2015 - 02:14 PM.