190 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 11 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

Speaking of Metamechs, GMan has a bit of an unhealthy obsession with the SRM2 and believes that it's a good weapon.

Metamechs is a nice and useful reference site, and GMan is a good player, but his website shouldn't be taken at face-value or else we'd have an SRM2 meta on our hands here...

This is true, but I also think that people think when he is referenced that they take his word is gospel. All good players take any sort of list/suggestion like that with a grain of salt. The whole reason I referenced him is that his list was contradictory to some other people's list and that he has a higher credibility being a known competitive player.

A lot of good players seem to have unhealthy obsessions though, it is an odd/interesting trend, I've known quite a few myself.

[Mcgral18]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

A lot of good players seem to have unhealthy obsessions though, it is an odd/interesting trend, I've known quite a few myself.

I'm curious, what kind of obsessions?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

I'm curious, what kind of obsessions?

It is generally variant specific rather than weapons, I could say some of them, but they kinda of lose their context if you don't know the mod (MW4-HC); example being a 4 LL Griffin 1N that a certain pilot tried to take whenever possible and tell us that it was a good mech.

I did swear during the NBT-MP3 leagues that IS SRM4s were absolutely wonderful (and better than RL20s) against anything slow on any brawling map and tried to load them when I could on a heavy or assault.

A more relevant case would be Soy and his Nova.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 11 March 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

A lot of good players seem to have unhealthy obsessions though, it is an odd/interesting trend, I've known quite a few myself.

Not everybody is willing to conform. For instance, I like my Gargles knowing full well how bad they are.

We'd like to hope people's objectivity would not affect their subjectivity (and vice versa), but that is honestly a lost cause.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 March 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 March 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

It is generally variant specific rather than weapons, I could say some of them, but they kinda of lose their context if you don't know the mod (MW4-HC); example being a 4 LL Griffin 1N that a certain pilot tried to take whenever possible and tell us that it was a good mech.

I did swear during the NBT-MP3 leagues that IS SRM4s were absolutely wonderful (and better than RL20s) against anything slow on any brawling map and tried to load them when I could on a heavy or assault.

A more relevant case would be Soy and his Nova.

I remember that LORD STEEL had a thing for his 8 ML Swayback.

Edited by FupDup, 11 March 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[RedDevil]

If something *clicks* with someone, and they do better in that than in something superior by the numbers, then so be it!

[Ultimax]

RE: Nova Shield Side



I’m not saying that you stand there and tank tons of incoming damage while sideways as if you were an Atlas or a Banshee.

I’m saying that having a shield side you can sacrifice is better than FACE TANKING all the damage.


You guys are being exceedingly dense on this.

I leveled all 3 of my Novas with a shield side, precisely because it’s a mech not good at absorbing punishment.

Very few medium mechs can boast such a claim, much less one with geometry as the Nova.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 11 March 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

I remember that LORD STEEL had a thing for his 8 ML Swayback.

Yeah he was great in it. He learned from Koreanese (his fav mech was ML Hunch).

Nova is not that mech... and it's not that meta, so... it is what it is. -.-

Been thinking about 4 ML, 6 SL. Might be interesting.

Lily from animove, on 11 March 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

Thats the issue with the whole vid, the entire most important thing about the nova is the way you approach, yet your video does not show that we only see the result in a situation. It just shows a result which many mechs can get into and no one knows how much effort vs randomness is put into those.

And "testing" a new build is anyways problematic, because 10 matches are not a real test at all, 10 matches work on an "easy build" to see I f it is good. But there are many good builds that are just harder to make them work, because you need 50 or even 100 matches before you really know how the build has to be used to. And then the build can probably even be better than most mainsteam "easy builds". But this is a way many people are not willing to go, or what they simply can't because they do not play that often or just do not want to play only one mech for this.

I guess I can uhh... try and record a few rounds and just put 3 in a row? Or do some sort of positioning video? I dunno, meh.

You gotta test **** regardless of what people say. Keep trying to raise the intensity and risks you take and if it keeps working out, then it's working. If not isolate what's wrong, consider the weaknesses, and see what you can do about it going forward. Can't do that in one or two play sessions.

[aniviron]

Ultimatum X, on 11 March 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

RE: Nova Shield Side

I’m not saying that you stand there and tank tons of incoming damage while sideways as if you were an Atlas or a Banshee.

I’m saying that having a shield side you can sacrifice is better than FACE TANKING all the damage.


You guys are being exceedingly dense on this.

I leveled all 3 of my Novas with a shield side, precisely because it’s a mech not good at absorbing punishment.

Very few medium mechs can boast such a claim, much less one with geometry as the Nova.

And what the others are saying (and I'm agreeing with) is that it doesn't work like that. In fact, I would say there are more mediums with a shield side than not- the WVR's entire left half of the mech, the SHD's left half, the HBK's left half, etc.

More to the point, it doesn't really matter if you can turn aside, because even if you do, all you're sparing is your weapons- it's still very easy to hit your CT when you're twisted 90 degrees relative to your opponent. This being the case, turning away is honestly not all that much more productive than simply staring your enemy down, because at least you can shoot back when you're staring them in the face, and they're probably just going to drill out your CT whether or not you're looking at them or not.

The only caveat to this rule is if your opponent doesn't know about the Nova's bad hitboxes or has abysmal aim, in which case, you will get some mileage out of twisting. Even though that's the case, and I do twist with it in combat, it's far less effective on the Nova than any other medium for the simple fact that it has a slower twist speed than any other medium in the game at 57 degrees per second. Most IS mediums start at 57 degrees per second, and get faster as the engine gets larger, a luxury the Nova does not have. If you can't twist with any degree of rapidity, then you're not going to spread damage terribly well.

[Soy]

aniviron, on 11 March 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

The only caveat to this rule is if your opponent doesn't know about the Nova's bad hitboxes or has abysmal aim, in which case, you will get some mileage out of twisting. Even though that's the case, and I do twist with it in combat, it's far less effective on the Nova than any other medium for the simple fact that it has a slower twist speed than any other medium in the game at 57 degrees per second. Most IS mediums start at 57 degrees per second, and get faster as the engine gets larger, a luxury the Nova does not have. If you can't twist with any degree of rapidity, then you're not going to spread damage terribly well.

*poptarts up over rock, glances at incoming quirks in the distance*



Btw - a good Nova round against good players should end with you showing internal on both legs, both arms, and yet chest remains yellow armor. That means you were jumpin a lot (legs), soaking some (arms), but yet twisting decently (chest). Or.... dead with 2 kills and some cored leftovers.

Edited by Soy, 11 March 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

FupDup, on 11 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

Speaking of Metamechs, GMan has a bit of an unhealthy obsession with the SRM2 and believes that it's a good weapon.

Metamechs is a nice and useful reference site, and GMan is a good player, but his website shouldn't be taken at face-value or else we'd have an SRM2 meta on our hands here...

It's a decent lightweight supplement to pinpoint alpha at brawling range, but by itself it's not a very good weapon, even when boated.

[Vandul]

At least you used music from Unreal Tournament.

+1

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 March 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

RE: Nova Shield Side



I’m not saying that you stand there and tank tons of incoming damage while sideways as if you were an Atlas or a Banshee.

I’m saying that having a shield side you can sacrifice is better than FACE TANKING all the damage.


You guys are being exceedingly dense on this.

I leveled all 3 of my Novas with a shield side, precisely because it’s a mech not good at absorbing punishment.

Very few medium mechs can boast such a claim, much less one with geometry as the Nova.

I think aniviron said it best... let's put in terms of a Mist Lynx.

If your torso twist properly, will you still lose your arms on a Mist Lynx?

The Nova's hitboxes can only take so much punishment... being Awesome-ish wide. If you sword and board, and still manage to get cored... is it the pilot's fault that the CT is still easy to shoot at?

There's only so much the pilot can do to negate the effects of bad hitboxes... if it's merely a foregone conclusion that the mech can't honestly do much to protect itself (like the Dragon's nose), then it's a bad idea to use that as an example... even while it helps mitigate problems.. there's nothing a player can do outside of PGI manipulating hitboxes to some strange end to accomplish this task.

[Ultimax]

aniviron, on 11 March 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

More to the point, it doesn't really matter if you can turn aside, because even if you do, all you're sparing is your weapons

Sparing your weapons is a major part of the point.

aniviron, on 11 March 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

- it's still very easy to hit your CT when you're twisted 90 degrees relative to your opponent. This being the case, turning away is honestly not all that much more productive than simply staring your enemy down, because at least you can shoot back when you're staring them in the face, and they're probably just going to drill out your CT whether or not you're looking at them or not.

I find the CT is easier to hit from the front, if you twist and are moving its a much smaller and easier to spread damage.

Deathlike, on 11 March 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

There's only so much the pilot can do to negate the effects of bad hitboxes...

Let's assume you two are right, and I am wrong.


Please explain to me what the advantage is to a Symmetrical build vs. my Asymmetrical build with regards to:

1) Protecting your weapons.
2) Keeping yourself alive.

[Ultimax]

For reference, this is how far an elited Nova can twist.









It also bobs when it walks.

[RedDevil]

Ultimatum X, on 11 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

1) Protecting your weapons.
2) Keeping yourself alive.

If you can't see the CT from the side, then you have to shoot at the dead side torso. Damage to the center torso is reduced by 40% in this case due to the damage transfer system. If you can see the CT from the side then you do 100% damage instead.

This is why the Nova gets cored so much faster than say a Centurion.

Edited by reddevil, 11 March 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

reddevil, on 11 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

If you can't see the CT from the side, then you have to shoot at the dead side torso. Damage to the center torso is reduced by 40% in this case due to the damage transfer system.

Speaking of which, damage transfer in this game should really change. Or give standard internals the damage transfer reduction to ensure Endo is not always better than Ferro and give more impact in choices of weight savings.

[Ultimax]

reddevil, on 11 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

If you can't see the CT from the side, then you have to shoot at the dead side torso. Damage to the center torso is reduced by 40% in this case due to the damage transfer system. If you can see the CT from the side then you do 100% damage instead.

This is why the Nova gets cored so much faster than say a Centurion.

I'm not arguing that those things are untrue.

I'm asking what is the advantage to survivability and protecting weapons if you go symmetrical over asymmetrical (or pseudo-asymm)?

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 11 March 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

I'm not arguing that those things are untrue.

I'm asking what is the advantage to survivability and protecting weapons if you go symmetrical over asymmetrical (or pseudo-asymm)?

• You want more than 6 E weapons
  
• You're not a fan of getting your locust sized arm one shot.

I switch every now and then. Choosing between 225M effective range or the ability to instantly be made useless can be difficult after bad matches.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

• You want more than 6 E weapons

That for sure, if you want oodles of weapons, there is mostly one way to go.

Here is a pseudo-asymmetrical build I put up earlier for "more than 6"

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c28af3a9d84d3a

Goal was to roughly match the 10 or 12 SPL builds, but be semi-asymmetrical.

I'm not crazy about the CERSLAS, but the other options were shaving that arm further for a full ton or letting 0.46T go unused.



So, I'm taking the stance that I am wrong and everyone telling me effectively that there is not much point to torso twisting on a Nova, nor to using an ablative side - and apparently not much reason to torso twist either?