437 replies to this topic

[Burktross]

Verkhne, on 16 March 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

(I think the Hunchies may have it, do they even run xl engines cause you cant really kill them...)

A hunchback with an XL is prone to elimination via natural selection.

[aniviron]

Apnu, on 16 March 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I have a lot of trouble sharing tears for clans. When an XL in the torso pops on an IS mech we die. So clans will go a little slower, at least they're not dead.

Of course, IS mechs also get a choice about whether or not they use XL engines. So for example if I could take a standard engine, endo, and ferro in my Nova, it would work out to the same tonnage and speed- but because the Nova gets no customization options, it instead gets the XL engine with no endo and ferro which is almost tolerable. Throw in the heat penalty and now the speed penalty, and well, there's a reason I play a lot with my Hunchbacks and not at all with my Novae.

[Satan n stuff]

wanderer, on 16 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

If damaging engines actually did what it did in TT, we wouldn't have an issue.

Of course, that would mean IS XLs (or standards!) could go boom before internals do, and Clan 'Mechs could simply go internal in two torso locations and drop dead. The big problem has always been that massive chunks of the internal damage model and heat scaling simply don't exist. Engine damage prior to section destroyed. Gyro damage. Heat causing a 'Mech to slow down and become less responsive. Actuator damage reducing arm motion or speed.
Kludgy minimum effort fixes like this? Meh.

Because random engine deaths make for such good gameplay, right?

[Burktross]

Satan n stuff, on 16 March 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Because random engine deaths make for such good gameplay, right?

You could also say, "useless MGs make for such good gameplay, right?"

[Vanguard319]

While I agree engine damage should affect a mech's movement and heat, the fact that this doesn't affect IS mechs at all is bad. It's not the loss of the side torso itself that is causing it, but rather the two critical hits sustained to the engine. That means that it should affect all mechs whenever they suffer a crit to any engine slot, regardless of whether it is an IS or clan mech, or whether hit in a ST or CT. All it does is make clan lights even less useful, without affecting Spiders, Commandos, or Ravens at all.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Artgathan, on 16 March 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Because the ability to have a 50% weight engine that gives you basically the same survivability as a STD is a huge advantage. Even if they're locked. Even if there are penalties. IS mechs simply can't compete engine wise - there's no way to achieve the survivability AND speed achieved by Clan XL engines. Your choices as IS are either:

A) Mount an XL and be fragile, but fast
Mount a STD and be slow, but very slightly more durable

Clan XLs have no real drawbacks, apart from the extra critslots.

STD retain full heatsinks

clan XL lose good chunk of heatsinks.

Not a HUGE difference, but it is there and does affect how much you can shoot when gimped, seen some massive heat spikes afterwards.

[Burktross]

Vanguard319, on 16 March 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

While I agree engine damage should affect a mech's movement and heat, the fact that this doesn't affect IS mechs at all is bad. It's not the loss of the side torso itself that is causing it, but rather the two critical hits sustained to the engine. That means that it should affect all mechs whenever they suffer a crit to any engine slot, regardless of whether it is an IS or clan mech, or whether hit in a ST or CT. All it does is make clan lights even less useful, without affecting Spiders, Commandos, or Ravens at all.

Is an instant death not effective enough?

[Walluh]

I'm sure going to love never using anything but the holy trinity from now on since the lesser clan mechs are getting nerfed even harder

[Johnny Z]

I dont know if the Omni mech pilot will be enjoying the "engine calibration downtime" but I sure will. Muahahaha.

shad0w4life, on 16 March 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

STD retain full heatsinks

clan XL lose good chunk of heatsinks.

Not a HUGE difference, but it is there and does affect how much you can shoot when gimped, seen some massive heat spikes afterwards.

Oh look the clanner seen some massive heat spikes when losing a side torso. Isnt that cute. Unlikely, but cute.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 March 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Apnu]

aniviron, on 16 March 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Of course, IS mechs also get a choice about whether or not they use XL engines. So for example if I could take a standard engine, endo, and ferro in my Nova, it would work out to the same tonnage and speed- but because the Nova gets no customization options, it instead gets the XL engine with no endo and ferro which is almost tolerable. Throw in the heat penalty and now the speed penalty, and well, there's a reason I play a lot with my Hunchbacks and not at all with my Novae.

As pointed out already, for lights speed=armor. Given how little internal structure lights have and how little armor they can carry, the only way to get speed an have something more than a small laser, they only choice is XL engines. While you are technically true, IS light pilots have a Hobson's choice on engine type.

While the clan player is locked in with the engine, and other internal structure components, they enjoy the benefits of the clans. Omnipods, superior weapons, 2 slot heat sinks, 7 slot ES and/or FF. So your LRMs trickle out, you do get no minimum range. So your autocannons spray fire, you get crazy ammo bumps per ton. The list of benefits clan players get is pretty deep and wide.

But then if having a fixed engine that has problems when it loses 2/3 of its HP is too much, well that's the players choice for choosing clans.

[Johnny Z]

Apnu, on 16 March 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

As pointed out already, for lights speed=armor. Given how little internal structure lights have and how little armor they can carry, the only way to get speed an have something more than a small laser, they only choice is XL engines. While you are technically true, IS light pilots have a Hobson's choice on engine type.

While the clan player is locked in with the engine, and other internal structure components, they enjoy the benefits of the clans. Omnipods, superior weapons, 2 slot heat sinks, 7 slot ES and/or FF. So your LRMs trickle out, you do get no minimum range. So your autocannons spray fire, you get crazy ammo bumps per ton. The list of benefits clan players get is pretty deep and wide.

But then if having a fixed engine that has problems when it loses 2/3 of its HP is too much, well that's the players choice for choosing clans.

If Omni mech dont go boom and IS do go boom its still a clan advantage. You missed a few easy mode bonuses for clan players also, but I wont mention them now.

[Burktross]

This is going to end badly.

[aniviron]

Apnu, on 16 March 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

As pointed out already, for lights speed=armor. Given how little internal structure lights have and how little armor they can carry, the only way to get speed an have something more than a small laser, they only choice is XL engines. While you are technically true, IS light pilots have a Hobson's choice on engine type.

While the clan player is locked in with the engine, and other internal structure components, they enjoy the benefits of the clans. Omnipods, superior weapons, 2 slot heat sinks, 7 slot ES and/or FF. So your LRMs trickle out, you do get no minimum range. So your autocannons spray fire, you get crazy ammo bumps per ton. The list of benefits clan players get is pretty deep and wide.

But then if having a fixed engine that has problems when it loses 2/3 of its HP is too much, well that's the players choice for choosing clans.

It's a bit disingenuous to imply that clan weapons are all upsides. I won't comment on LRMs, they're bad for both factions, but saying that clan autocannons are better is a statement that very few people will back you up on- including PGI, since apparently they agree that clan autocannons need a buff. Clan lasers are better, but they also come with much longer burn times and more heat. More importantly, they come with virtually no quirks as well, meaning that an optimized IS chassis has the same range with less heat and a shorter burn time at the expense of weight. The Stalker 4N is a perfect example- it outclasses the Timberwolf, but it needs more tonnage to do it.

My point is that while nerfing the Timberwolf is a reasonable proposition, I don't think you're going to find a single decent player who will say that any clan lights or mediums besides the Stormcrow can hold a candle to what the IS bring- and these are the mechs that are going to be most affected by the heat and speed changes.

[Walluh]

I really don't know why they don't just nerf the HBR/TBR/DWF/SCR. I don't think anyone is going to call a mad dog or a gargoyle OP.

[CutterWolf]

Walluh, on 16 March 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

I really don't know why they don't just nerf the HBR/TBR/DWF/SCR. I don't think anyone is going to call a mad dog or a gargoyle OP.

Oh no you IS fan boys call anything that has the word Clan in it OP. I'm going to start a thread called, "PGI please make all Clan mech start out legged."

Edited by CutterWolf, 16 March 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[4rcs1ne]

The major problem I see with this nerf, is that it hurts everything but the Timberwolf and Stormcrow . Once again, another blanket nerf that destroys the weak clan mechs while leaving the good clan mechs relatively untouched.

[Walluh]

CutterWolf, on 16 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Oh no you IS fan boys call anything that has the word Clan in it OP. I'm going to start a thread called, "PGI please make all Clan mech start out legged."

..I'm primarily a clan player. My unit just went Steiner for a week or two.

Edited by Walluh, 16 March 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Johnny Z]

CutterWolf, on 16 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Oh no you IS fan boys call anything that has the word Clan in it OP. I'm going to start a thread called, "PGI please make all Clan mech start out legged."

I have fun with the balance subject. But no one can say the two techs are balanced at the moment. What is to be done about it is the issue.

[Hillslam]

OH its so brutal you have to go only 80% of your top speed. a travesty. a crime. tt. lore yo. tell a lie enough. and so on.

Clearly its much better to get blown to pieces.... *dude shhh quiet*

/sarcasm

*whiny clan b**ches*

Of course some of the cagier clan players are going "hmm, seems reasonable"... because it is utterly an unnoticable non-factor just like the heat was.

Edited by Hillslam, 16 March 2015 - 05:22 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Hillslam, on 16 March 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

its so brutal you have to go only 80% of your top speed. much better to get blown to pieces....

/sarcasm

*whiny clan b**ches*

This is true also. I am not convinced their weakest mechs are any worse then their Inner Sphere counterparts. The 4 top Omni mechs are so strong, anything balanced is weak in comparison. So any whining about anything from Omni mech pilots is literally ignored by Innersphere pilots like me.

Edited by Johnny Z, 16 March 2015 - 05:23 PM.