716 replies to this topic

[Drunk Canuck]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

I am not spewing tears at all...I am trying to erect a dam to hold back the IS tears about to flood the place over, and all those tears are for no good reason.

The problem, drunk, is you are drowning in the tears where you are standing...

Nah, not really. I haven't been complaining about the strength of Clans to the extent that others have, and considering how much you moaned about the TDR 9S, you really aren't in any position to be accusing me of whining.

I have already made my point as to how Clans could be nerfed in this thread (you should go back a couple of pages), and it's not through an IS power creep like you suggested, and it isn't through a speed nerf from losing a side torso. Someone suggested removing speed tweak from Clans, which I am on the fence about as it seems to be that it would impact more Mech's negatively then it would the problem trinity.

Making Clan UAC's better might be a start, I haven't since day one, liked the design of Clan UAC's, it's pretty much useless for any Mech that isn't a DWF B because the multi shot cannons pretty much make their direct damage inferior and the DWF is only successful in dealing damage because it can carry a lot of them. I also proposed nerfing the ER ML damage a bit, since a 1 ton weapon that is nearly equivalent to an IS Large Laser is a bit much, and increasing the stock cool down on the Clan Large Pulse Laser would help to mitigate the effectiveness of Clan laser vomit, but really if Clan UAC's aren't viable on any chassis other than a DWF, of course people aren't going to use them and that is ultimately where the problem comes from.

Power creep has been the problem, nerfing Clans should be done through power reduction to be honest, it makes way more sense to reduce damage then essentially make most chassis complete garbage by doing a sweeping nerf. Taking Speed Tweak away from the Stormcrow would be a reasonable nerf as well.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 20 March 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Zeusus, on 20 March 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I honestly feel that even if IS won 90% of games people would still be saying 'OP clans'

Yep because as it stands they would still be easy mode. The balance isnt far off though.

[Drunk Canuck]

Johnny Z, on 20 March 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Yep because as it stands they would still be easy mode. The balance isnt far off though.

The balance isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The Clan nerfs don't need to come from a broad brush on all Mech's, but more so from the weapons. There are a few main weapon systems that have been fairly easily abused due to how others are designed. Clan Streaks are lethal, and anyone who doesn't bring them in an unrestricted light tonnage drop is stupid. Clan laser vomit is also a problem, but it seems to also be coupled with the mediocrity of Clan UAC's more than anything. Lasers + Gauss is good on anything and UAC's are only good on the DWF. Rather than nerfing every Mech, just nerf the Clan lasers and make UAC's suck less.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

Bishop Steiner...it is not just wolves, or specifically a single unit doing the talking, there are even people in your alt accounts affiliated unit CGBI that disagree, like cimarb who is in your keshik among many others.

If you are going to present an argument from an IS perspective, RPing in your clan alt account is not going to get you any favors from me as you are simply trying to make me look like I am divergent from many clan players perspectives, and the truth is most, clans players do not frequent this forum or twitter enough to know the truth of what may happen, and thus are not here.

Recall the "remove the hard limits on queue for pub/solo" poll where everyone who hated it got outvoted massively, then 30 minutes after they changed it the forums erupted with "OMGWTFBBQ!!!! QUEUE IS BROKN PLZ FIX!!!"

The EXACT same thing will happen here, and it will piss people off.

Oh, do tell me more?

Also, those few, the handful that seem to be agreeing? Will be relegated to the bandit caste soon enough.

[Bishop Steiner]

And here I thought it as the Emerald Peacocks that were supposed to be the uptight, hypertensive clanners. *SMH* Must be a crusader thing.

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

Recall the "remove the hard limits on queue for pub/solo" poll where everyone who hated it got outvoted massively, then 30 minutes after they changed it the forums erupted with "OMGWTFBBQ!!!! QUEUE IS BROKN PLZ FIX!!!"

The EXACT same thing will happen here, and it will piss people off.

That may be the case but there were no balance changes that happened there, people were simply pissed off that PGI messed around with matchmaking in a piss poor manner instead of implementing it in a way that actually made sense. There were no balance changes to whine about because their precious mechs were getting nerfed appropriately, hence no bias and no real reason to ignore it.

Just because people will whine about appropriate nerfs, and I'm sure they will WHINE like crazy, doesn't mean they need to be listened to.

[Johnny Z]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 March 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

The balance isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The Clan nerfs don't need to come from a broad brush on all Mech's, but more so from the weapons. There are a few main weapon systems that have been fairly easily abused due to how others are designed. Clan Streaks are lethal, and anyone who doesn't bring them in an unrestricted light tonnage drop is stupid. Clan laser vomit is also a problem, but it seems to also be coupled with the mediocrity of Clan UAC's more than anything. Lasers + Gauss is good on anything and UAC's are only good on the DWF. Rather than nerfing every Mech, just nerf the Clan lasers and make UAC's suck less.

Not being far off doesnt mean balance. Easy mode mechs being in the regular queue isnt right. Easy mode mechs being on the Star map isnt right either.

There is very likely 5 or 6 small nerfs coming to some Omni mechs and maybe a tiny buff or two coming to Inner Sphere mechs.

This 20% loss to speed on side torso loss to Omni mechs is nothing but a tiny move away from easy mode for Omni mechs. The complaints about it from the easy mode brigade are funny in an annoying sort of way.

I can never pilot Omni mechs now. The way they were brought into the game. Easy mode is repulsive to me. I wouldnt be able to pilot them unless they were made hard mode like Inner Sphere mechs have been for the most part. That would really upset me at this point. On principle I would like to see really good game balance is all.

They way Omni mechs were brought into the game isnt all bad. It has created some rivalry.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Johnny Z, on 20 March 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Yep because as it stands they would still be easy mode. The balance isnt far off though.

How are Clan Easy mode? im not trolling i just want to see where you are coming from,

[ThrashInc]

He's trolling so,

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

How are Clan Easy mode? im not trolling i just want to see where you are coming from,

I couldnt be bothered to list all the advantages Omni mechs get over Inner Sphere mechs. Mostly because they are to many to list easily, although I could, I wont.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

How are Clan Easy mode? im not trolling i just want to see where you are coming from,

Longer range, greater speeds for many mechs (apart from lights really and the Daishi), some really good weapons (ER Medium Lasers come to mind) and side torsos that don't kill you when you lose one.

Not to say Clan mechs are easy per say, but once you reach a certain level of skill, they are very easy to do well with even when compared to some of the better IS mechs.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 20 March 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

The True Space Pope, on 20 March 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Longer range, greater speeds for many mechs (apart from lights really and the Daishi), some really good weapons (ER Medium Lasers come to mind) and side torsos that don't kill you when you lose one.

Not to say Clan mechs are easy per say, but once you reach a certain level of skill, they are very easy to do well with even when compared to some of the better IS mechs.

but dont all those have disadvantages as well?
Longer Durations, Hotter Lasers, multi-shot ballistics, Stream Missiles,
yes they are faster but have much less tonnage and its locked,

apart form the SCR/TBR most arnt better than their IS comparison mechs,
unless you are running best Meta Builds, and with Quirks even those builds arnt better,
my Nova shouldnt have to run 10-12ER-ML to be useful, i want to run my S arms and have them matter,

this 20% speed reduction would make SCR/TBR more kill-able dont get me wrong,
but the fall out will hit all Clan mechs even the under preformers, NVAs MLXs ADRs KFXs IFRs,
to lose an ST would spell death for these mechs as they dont have Fun Hit-boxes or lost of Tonnage,


Edit- This Below
i understand that if you play the system and run all Meta you can play easy mode,
but thats for both sides(IS and Clan), and most players dont run Meta builds, why dont they?
if your Playing Just to Win, then ya Meta away, you may win easily but you victory will sour,
if your Playing for fun because you Love BT and its Lore then Meta doesnt mean Much,

Meta will always exist but i dont have to play 12ER-ML NVA to have fun,
and i may win even running my 4ER-LL Nova, and kick some Meta Mechs Butts,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 20 March 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

but dont all those have disadvantages as well?
Longer Durations, Hotter Lasers, multi-shot ballistics, Stream Missiles,
yes they are faster but have much less tonnage and its locked,

apart form the SCR/TBR most arnt better than their IS comparison mechs,
unless you are running best Meta Builds, and with Quirks even those builds arnt better,
my Nova shouldnt have to run 10-12ER-ML to be useful, i want to run my S arms and have them matter,

this 20% speed reduction would make SCR/TBR more kill-able dont get me wrong,
but the fall out will hit all Clan mechs even the under preformers, NVAs MLXs ADRs KFXs IFRs,
to lose an ST would spell death for these mechs as they dont have Fun Hit-boxes or lost of Tonnage,

What disadvantage does the Onmi XL have taking up less crit slots and not going boom on side torso loss?

Even if they add 20% speed reduction on side torso loss, it still isnt a disadvantage.

The list of free bonuses to Omni mechs would take up half this page to explain properly. lol

To balance all these advantages the Inner Sphere mechs have got "quirks" so far(which may take up two pages to list ) and while these have done a surprisingly good job balancing the two techs out, balance isnt there yet.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 20 March 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

I couldnt be bothered to list all the advantages Omni mechs get over Inner Sphere mechs. Mostly because they are to many to list easily, although I could, I wont.

Well, in fairness..... the top tier Clan Mechs are indeed ezmode.

Thing is there is a precipitous gap in performance between the Unholy Trinity and most of the rest of the Clan Mechs with precious little middle ground.

No one in their right mind, can say with a straight face that the Top 3 Clan Mechs don't rule the roost. (Sorry Metus, the KGC being a slightly better brawler than the DWF doesn't make it overall better...since DWF kills it in any other scenario with a decent pilot). TBR and SCR are without any real contest, top of their respective classes, even against the overspecialized one hit wonder IS Quirkinators. And the DWF while not as extreme, is still pretty solid at top or tied for.

Running about middle of the pack, and pretty on par with the average IS Mech (and despite being omni, almost always as build restricted in reality) are the Hellbringer, Mad Dog and debatably, the Warhawk.

But the Summoner, Adder, Kit Fox, Mist Lynx, Gargoyle, Ice Ferret and Nova? Varying degrees of BAD. Some have 1-2 semi viable builds, and like any mech, a small handful of pilots who do well and champion them, but they are NOT good. So to call those "EZMode" is as deceptive and inaccurate as when the Clanners try to claim their UnHoly Trinity doesn't need any nerfs or tweaks to bring them in line.

Which is Why I have been pushing for Endo to be unlocked, as it would help stabilize the baselines of Clan Mechs, in regards balance (No, it doesn't help the Lights, but nothing but totally scrapping any Omni Rules and unlocking Engines will allow them to fit in the monosyllabic box most people think Light HAVE to be in. In truth, their issue is more their size and for the Mist Lynx, hardpoint placement, than their speed). But that doesn't bring the Trinity inline.


So no, Clans are not inherently ez mode, but they do indeed have some strong advantages, and it's very hard to justify a lot of buffs unfortunately as long as they have the "immortality Mode" Xls.

I'd like to see it done simultaneously with Endo/Ferro unlocks, ideally, as well as more sensibly numbered Quirks on the lower tier Clan MEchs, but for whatever reason, getting PGI to see the wisdom of that has been rather difficult. (I think most of us would be more apt to accept the 1 step at a time on the nerfs and buffs...if PGI's history with them had not been so heavy handed and sporadic)

That said, that is the reality we have to work within, and it is still what needs to be done.

[Andi Nagasia]

Johnny Z, on 20 March 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

What disadvantage does the Onmi XL have taking up less crit slots and not going boom on side torso loss?

Even if they add 20% speed reduction on side torso loss, it still isnt a disadvantage.

The list of free bonuses to Omni mechs would take up half this page to explain properly. lol

To balance all these advantages the Inner Sphere mechs have got "quirks" so far(which may take up two pages to list ) and while these have done a surprisingly good job balancing the two techs out, balance isnt there yet.

i would consider 70% heat Efficiency loss(20% engine 50% half of mech) a disadvantage,
Just Bear in mind that Every Disadvantage the C-LX get the IS-LFE will get when it comes out,

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

i would consider 70% heat Efficiency loss(20% engine 50% half of mech) a disadvantage,
Just Bear in mind that Every Disadvantage the C-LX get the IS-LFE will get when it comes out,

Over being dead? Do tell.

Also, those disadvantages are fine on the LFE and should be there.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[Sundervine]

If they are going to add this, then it shows they can add the heat scale movement modifiers as well. That would be the only way I would want to see this.

Otherwise quit blanket nerfing. There are so many options they could add to make this fair its not even funny. As well as the fact that so many clan mechs are sub par because of this.

Why because of this? why is it unfair? Well let me explain a few things:
1: If i wanted to change to a standard engine... so I do not have this problem... I cannot. I cannot get around this change even If i wanted to. IS can, all they do is drop a standard engine and its fixed.
2: Fixed engine size that makes over half the clan mechs sub optimal. I cannot change my clan mech engine to what is most optimal and most likely will not. On my IS mechs I can optimize the engine size and type. Thus on 90% of the clan mechs this is just more weakness.

If you want this then unlock clan engines. If not leave it alone the engines are nerfed enough already. The XL is not the problem it is other things.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Over being dead? Do tell.

well um ,... hum,....you got me there Bishop,
but remember Clan mechs Cant Choose their Engines,
we are Stuck in XL land, something i hope they change,
and no not to Buff Clan but when IS Omnis comes out,
i think Most come with locked IS-XL it will be horrible,

[darkchylde]

As long as the the loss of ST is equivalent to TT Clan players will have no reason to call this a Nerf but this also means that PGI needs to incorporate the TT critical hit tables and heat system.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

well um ,... hum,....you got me there Bishop,
but remember Clan mechs Cant Choose their Engines,
we are Stuck in XL land, something i hope they change,
and no not to Buff Clan but when IS Omnis comes out,
i think Most come with locked IS-XL it will be horrible,

I would feel that a bigger downside if in most cases they didn't move faster and hit harder than the IS. (Quirk outliers notwithstanding, obviously).

Admittedly Clan Ballistics (and let's face it, they should be, to some degree as they are also lighter..though the ACs should not be as bad as they are now, nor the Clan Gauss, as good) are inferior as in some facets, are the Light Mechs, problem is that doing things like unlocking Engines, while not too horrible, possibly, for Lights (though I believe that with the superiority of clan lasers, that unlocked engines laser toting clan lights would be a worse headache than the FS9), and solutely 100% DOES become an issue when compare things with Mediums and Heavies and Assaults. Clan Heavies with Unlocked Engines? Do you really want to see the Nerfs that would come after to balance that catastrophe?

Not to mention the Arctic Cheetah will soon be in the traditional IS Light role.... so with that ability set, perhaps it's time to accept the other Lights don't fill that particular role (but many Clan Units use them quite well in other roles)

Also the 70% is a little misleading as that is a worst case scenario, and most times will not even come close, aside from certain laser vomit builds (oh.... time to shift to some cooler guns?) Also, by this reasoning, how much Cooling Loss does an IS mech suffer? If it has an STD and survives, it lost 50% of the mech, too.

darkchylde, on 20 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

As long as the the loss of ST is equivalent to TT Clan players will have no reason to call this a Nerf but this also means that PGI needs to incorporate the TT critical hit tables and heat system.

While it would be nice, no, it really doesn't mean the "have to".

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 07:47 PM.