716 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Or PGI can just figure out how to do 10 v 12 on CW...

They might also consider limiting the number of turrets the Clans get; they weren't real big on static defenses if I recall correctly.

[White Bear 84]

Gyrok, on 17 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Thoughts?

The tears of the clanners shall flow deep in a rising tide of QQ...

[Pjwned]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 March 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

The heat penalty has been in for a bit now, it's a 20% loss of cooling capacity, only extra cooling lost is if you have DHS on the side lost, which amounts to, so far, a 40% loss of cooling on the Mist Lynx and 20 to 35% on the rest at most. It's been totally missed by the players because it's so pointlessly low.

This is what prompted the speed loss consideration by Russ, data shows the heat isn't having any effect on Clan performance. It's a wasted balance effort in other words, and server data still evidently shows the Clans are still too OP and need to be balanced out a bit more.

I agree, I'm just saying the penalty for heat is essentially as high as it should be, and if more penalties (than we have now) are needed (which I do think they are) then it should be in the form of a speed penalty (or something similar) as proposed rather than scrapping that idea and saying "let's just increase the heat penalty to ridiculous levels instead." The mech still needs to be functional in combat, and a gigantic heat penalty for mechs that already have hotter weapons would make them pretty much non-functional, meanwhile a mech with a more reasonable heat penalty and an additional speed penalty to balance things out would still be functional in combat.

[Drunk Canuck]

Serpieri, on 21 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Twice as hard to hit really - have you seen how big and slow the Adder is compared to an IS Light? And lets not forget its low mounts.

Hate to break it to you but several IS players pointed out how powerful the TDR9S was compared to the Awesome - A mech that was designed to be a PPC platform unlike the thunderbolt who was slinging lighting bolts almost non stop.

The problem is that the Awesome is a giant piece of crap, at least the TDRs became useful with quirks, they were terribad for a long time.

[Karl Streiger]

Nightmare1, on 22 March 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

Or PGI can just figure out how to do 10 v 12 on CW...

They might also consider limiting the number of turrets the Clans get; they weren't real big on static defenses if I recall correctly.

10vs 12
often promoted has 2 problems
First you have to redo the MatchMaker
Second more serious you are accepting Clan Tech is simple better. There would be only Few that would still accept it and Climb into FIS Mechs.

Another thing is 10vs12 was promoted by Stackpole if I remember right you know this phantom skill stuff today known as ECM

[Aethon]

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Anyhow worst reasoning ever read in this topics - i bought Clan Package now they got nerfed. Wont pay for Wave 3 if...
Grow your self a pair - because i could ask for a refund for Wave 3.
So PGi may choose between money they never had or loose money ;-)
Not good reason by me - just to show how silly this money reason is

I could care less what they do to Wave 3; I am not giving PGI money for a new mech package if they are about to nerf some of the worst mechs I own, such as my Adder, Nova, and Kit Fox.

[Karl Streiger]

Your loose my gain - and don't call it schnitzel ehrm pardon Nerf.

[Adamski]

Aethon, on 22 March 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

I could care less what they do to Wave 3; I am not giving PGI money for a new mech package if they are about to nerf some of the worst mechs I own, such as my Adder, Nova, and Kit Fox.

Well ****, better not nerf any IS weapons ever, because I guarantee you that there is a Catapult that uses it.

On that topic, lets put all the mechs in a queue by release date for Balancing, and the Adder, Summoner and Nova can get their next rounds of Quirks once the Orion is a decent match for a Timberwolf.

[Aethon]

Adamski, on 22 March 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Well ****, better not nerf any IS weapons ever, because I guarantee you that there is a Catapult that uses it.

On that topic, lets put all the mechs in a queue by release date for Balancing, and the Adder, Summoner and Nova can get their next rounds of Quirks once the Orion is a decent match for a Timberwolf.

My Protector is already a match for a Timberwolf within 300 meters; I would be thrilled if it got its brawler quirks back, though, so I could 1v1 Dire Wolves again.

Also, the chances of any IS weapon being nerfed are incredibly slim at this point.

Furthermore, if there was about to be a blanket nerf for all IS mechs, including the Commando, Quickdraw, and Awesome, would you not be disappointed?

Edited by Aethon, 23 March 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Aethon, on 23 March 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Furthermore, if there was about to be a blanket nerf for all IS mechs, including the Commando, Quickdraw, and Awesome, would you not be disappointed?

would be thrilling if engine, gyro and activators could be critted. So yes

[Aethon]

Karl Streiger, on 23 March 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

would be thrilling if engine, gyro and activators could be critted. So yes

If all these things could be critted, lights (especially IS lights) would take too big a hit, IMHO, the way current game balance works. The only broken one, in my eyes, is the Firestarter.

[Johnny Z]

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

10vs 12
often promoted has 2 problems
First you have to redo the MatchMaker
Second more serious you are accepting Clan Tech is simple better. There would be only Few that would still accept it and Climb into FIS Mechs.

Another thing is 10vs12 was promoted by Stackpole if I remember right you know this phantom skill stuff today known as ECM

This is just the start of the problems. All the pack prices would have to be further adjusted as well as hero mechs, champion mechs, regular mechs even.

Rewards for both regular queue and the star map would have to be edjusted.

Really the list goes on.

[Karl Streiger]

Let it break stuff is supposed to work in this way - other wise there is no reason to have internal structure at all - you can switch/develop a more fitting hitbox system rather than to take 2d6 based zones and armor points.

[Aethon]

Karl Streiger, on 23 March 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Let it break stuff is supposed to work in this way - other wise there is no reason to have internal structure at all - you can switch/develop a more fitting hitbox system rather than to take 2d6 based zones and armor points.

The internal structure of IS lights is not what concerns me; if all the various side effects of internal damage (actuator, gyro, engine, joint damage) comes into play, IS lights will be hit the hardest, IMHO.

[Gyrok]

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

10vs 12
often promoted has 2 problems
First you have to redo the MatchMaker
Second more serious you are accepting Clan Tech is simple better. There would be only Few that would still accept it and Climb into FIS Mechs.

Another thing is 10vs12 was promoted by Stackpole if I remember right you know this phantom skill stuff today known as ECM

Stackpole showed mostly 5vs12 or 5vs16. 10vs12 would have been a complete roflstomp by TT rules. The IS would have been completely decimated fighting at anything less than say...4 to 1 advantage.

[Karl Streiger]

Depends on Zell 10 vs 12 keeping Zell - and modern stuff is wins - ignoring Zell and a Clan player fighting like Is a binary with the right Mechs can anihilate even 16

Well about old intro Tech stuff - there you are right Sumoner vs 4 Panther Sumoner wins.

Question is how would a 10 vs 12 look in MWO - lets predict Clan Tech behave like is stuff - example 13 dmg 8 heat 1.25 burn for the ERLarge.
Pinpoint shots for Uacs turning the class 10 into death incarnate.
Full 15dmg ERPPCs and Lpl burn of 0.6secs.Pff that would be the same drop with 10 beat 12 if you behave like IS - would not be any problem.
Only question: are there enough lambs?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Aethon, on 23 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

The internal structure of IS lights is not what concerns me; if all the various side effects of internal damage (actuator, gyro, engine, joint damage) comes into play, IS lights will be hit the hardest, IMHO.

Only because too many Lights rely on speed alone to stay alive and that's it. Speed is useful in staying alive, but it only takes 1 guy who can AIM to kill a Light, speed doesn't help in that case. I'm perfectly fine with having the crits and their effects taking place, I'll just keep driving my Lights the way I do now. I don't ram other Mechs, I don't bounce off the terrain/buildings, and I don't count on 'lag shields' to keep me alive, all common things that most Light pilots do regularly. Collisions alone will drop the Light pilot driver's club WAY down, and I can't wait for that. Crits that also slow you down, cause you to create heat without firing weapons, keep your balance off so you can't steer as well, I'll be having a blast dealing with those, piloting skills will mean something, not just your ability to flutter your JJ and bounce off things like we see now.

10v12 won't fix anything, it'll just mean the Clans lose a lot, the advantages their Tech provides don't actually compensate for the skill they do not have, which is what those numbers were actually based on in BTech. IS MechWarriors start training in their mid to late teens, Clan MechWarriors start training in childhood and are accomplished veterans by 16 if they are still alive. BTech showed that ingame by having Clan pilots start with better scores compared to IS pilots. The novels covered it by having the Clans engage in limited numbers vs the IS. We can't FORCE the Clan players to have those skills, much less fight as the Clans did by bidding and engaging in 1v1 combats unless fired upon by someone else, yeah, right, good luck with that one. 'What do you mean, we can't focus fire? Are you effing crazy? We can't win if we do that, the IS doesn't have to do that, why do we?' Yeah, that'll go over REAL well with the masses who play Clan because of the better toys, even most of the Clan players who LIKE the Clans from BTech and want to play them, they won't agree to abide by those rules, it's suicide. Which would be why the Clans stopped using those rules when dealing with the IS within the first year of the Invasion and only applied them when dealing with other Clans.

Gyrok, Stackpole showed 1 IS MechWarrior facing HOW many Clan Mechs and defeating them in a single engagement?, or a few Stars of Clan Mechs devastating entire Companies of IS Mechs, he swung wildly between the two depending on who was fighting for the IS. Phelan should have been dead the first time he fought for a position in a Star, he never would have survived to go for a Bloodname, Stackpole totally ignored the facts HE set up about the Clan MechWarriors not only being superior human beings but also superior MechWarriors with a LOT more years of experience in combat then Phelan had, but hey, PLOT DEVICE! The Clans in TT overrode the IS forces at 10v12 like the IS wasn't there, fact. 1 Star could and usually did take on a Company without any real problems, that's how OP the Clans are in TT, pretty much how they were usually described in the novels, unless of course they were facing a Named Canon Character.

MWO doesn't have the Clans being that OP, which is really good, because few would chose to be IS in that case, that's a fact, just look at the previous MW titles where the different Techs existed and the leagues that enforced that division. NBT did it, we designed it for the specific purpose, and I can tell you, I had a LOT more people apply to be Clan than IS for the first NBT, and I know talking to the people who ran NBT later on that that never changed, Clan had better toys, clear advantage in combat due to that, so more people wanted to be Clan than be IS. PLAYER enforced rules, not GAME enforced, and even then, players wanted that advantage. MWO gave that to the Clans, we'd have a few thousand people in the IS and a few tens of thousands in the Clans, fact. So PGI has to make the Clans be SLIGHTLY better than the IS but not enough that an even engagement is an automatic win for the Clans. They've almost attained that currently, at least until they get the HSR and hitreg working better, it seems almost perfect, Clans are obviously still a little too OP and need to be toned down a bit more. Gyrok, you claim a 90% win rate in CW, and you think balance is good?

[Aethon]

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 March 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Clans are obviously still a little too OP and need to be toned down a bit more.

To be more accurate, a specific few Clan mechs are a little too OP. Many of them also suck.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Aethon, on 23 March 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

To be more accurate, a specific few Clan mechs are a little too OP. Many of them also suck.

I agree with specific Clan Mechs need to be buffed a bit, but overall, there are some unbalanced factors in Clan tech that needs to be addressed, this thread covers one of those specific bits of OPness, the Clan XL. It's something PGI came up with due to their data which shows that the Clans are doing a bit too well still even with the 20% cooling hit after ST destruction. That's PGI's statement, not the players, so it's not a factor of being blinded by bad drops, no skill, stupidity, whatever calls for most of the NERF THE CLAMS!@ posts we see, which I totally ignore personally.

And since Russ is talking about a 10-20% drop in speed combined with the pre-existing heat debuff, I say lets try it. It's a far cry from the standard extreme reaction PGI usually has in regards to balance issues, start at 10% and see if that has any effect on things, if it does, good, stand there. If not, bump up to 15% and test, still no effect, go to 20%, but if it STILL doesn't do anything, stop there and try something else, like actually implementing criticals on the engine and the corresponding debuffs they should have. I'd rather they do that across the board right off, but hey, it's PGI we're dealing with here, they only told us 3 years we'd get engine crits, among other types of crits, in the final game.

[Aethon]

Ozealot, on 23 March 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Ya? Which ones?

I feel the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are a bit over the top, after playing against them in my IS mechs, and the Dire Wolf feels borderline to me, but not really OP.

Kristov Kerensky, on 23 March 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

I agree with specific Clan Mechs need to be buffed a bit, but overall, there are some unbalanced factors in Clan tech that needs to be addressed, this thread covers one of those specific bits of OPness, the Clan XL. It's something PGI came up with due to their data which shows that the Clans are doing a bit too well still even with the 20% cooling hit after ST destruction. That's PGI's statement, not the players, so it's not a factor of being blinded by bad drops, no skill, stupidity, whatever calls for most of the NERF THE CLAMS!@ posts we see, which I totally ignore personally.

And since Russ is talking about a 10-20% drop in speed combined with the pre-existing heat debuff, I say lets try it. It's a far cry from the standard extreme reaction PGI usually has in regards to balance issues, start at 10% and see if that has any effect on things, if it does, good, stand there. If not, bump up to 15% and test, still no effect, go to 20%, but if it STILL doesn't do anything, stop there and try something else, like actually implementing criticals on the engine and the corresponding debuffs they should have. I'd rather they do that across the board right off, but hey, it's PGI we're dealing with here, they only told us 3 years we'd get engine crits, among other types of crits, in the final game.

PGI does not have to play their game to be blinded by their own stupidity...and there is plenty of that to go around there.