716 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

True, PGI has made some seriously stupid moves, but this one is being based on the data from CW matches, and that data is probably going to be about the best ruler there can be.

CW means they have Clan vs Clan, IS vs IS and Clan vs IS data to look at without that data being polluted by IS+Clan vs IS+Clan that they get from the non-CW drops. Obviously they are seeing a difference there that they don't like, Clans are still outperforming the IS in direct competition, skill can't be the only reason otherwise they'd see that difference in the like vs like data as well.

[cSand]

Ozealot, on 22 March 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

Was really amazing to watch Wave 3 early adopter and "introduction" of iterative Clan quirk treatment. What a coincidence. You really pushed hard to match up to the expectations. Keep up the money grab good work PGI. I'm so happy you parted with your publisher IGP, PGI. Everything is now rainbows. Like it's a no-brainer and all hands on deck.

Or you know, people begged for Clan quirks for months and now they are finally getting to it


You're right though, they should just not release new content, which pays for this FREE TO PLAY GAME

[WarZ]

I've seen other players post that clan xl's are faster and more agile than IS xl's.

Their engines are NOT faster than IS engines. They go the same speeds per chasis. Some players think this is a buff. It is not.

Clan mechs are faster and more agile (for most, not all) than IS counterparts because ... wait for it ... THEY ARE FORCED TO TAKE THAT MASSIVE ENGINE. FORCED TO. Which means they do not have enough pod space to boat anything EXCEPT lasers !!! That are FRICKIN HOT. Which means they are forced to boat loads of DHS, to have viable laser based builds. That have LONG LONG burn times and spread damage like silly.

Oh did I mention that some of those LOCKED engines are nerfed already ??? Stormcrow 330xl, thats supposed to have 3 DHS slots built in (like an IS 325 engine right ?) - BUT it gets ZERO built in heatsinks. ZERO. For a 330xl engine. WTF. I NEVER see IS players mention this tidbit ! Oh no.

There is a HUGE trade off. If I could boat effective Dakka (minus the Dire, which I dont own) on my clan mechs, vs all the laser vomit I'm forced to use, I WOULD DROP THAT BIG ENGINE IN A HEARTBEAT. And happily go slower and be less agile in order to boat weapons that are far more effective in this game.

Players need to stop acting like clan speed and agility is a free awesome bonus buff that IS doesnt have access too. Realize its a BIG FAST NERF. And the IS can have it too.

Now, the losing a ST bonus, I give you that. But clans are already paying for that benefit in many other ways. I'd be happy to see IS XL engines changed so that they can lose 1 ST as well. If the devs really need to they could sell an upgraded version of the standard IS XL for 50% more to validate it.

[Johnny Z]

Ozealot, on 23 March 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Ya? Which ones?

Troll much?

[WazOfOz]

But it makes sense to me that if our engine or gyro takes damage, speed & or heat dissipation suffers, weather it be a standard or XL engine. I'm sure I'm not the only 1 that's heard bitchin' betty squealing at them that you've received crit. damage when we've had our centre torso armour stripped. so which component in the centre has been critted ? not the engine because speed & heat dissipation remain the same, not the gyro because speed remains the same, if it were ammo we would die ( as it would completely ravage our centre) if it were a weapon it would vanish from our weapon grouping, if its a heat sink = loss of some heat dissipation. Sure 3 engine components destroyed = death, 1 or 2 = loss of speed & heat dissipation, if it's the gyro loss of speed. so I reckon include the gyro into the equation... if it's going to be a blanket nerf, then make it so.

[Kristov Kerensky]

WarZ, on 24 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

I've seen other players post that clan xl's are faster and more agile than IS xl's.

Their engines are NOT faster than IS engines. They go the same speeds per chasis. Some players think this is a buff. It is not.

Clan mechs are faster and more agile (for most, not all) than IS counterparts because ... wait for it ... THEY ARE FORCED TO TAKE THAT MASSIVE ENGINE. FORCED TO. Which means they do not have enough pod space to boat anything EXCEPT lasers !!! That are FRICKIN HOT. Which means they are forced to boat loads of DHS, to have viable laser based builds. That have LONG LONG burn times and spread damage like silly.

Oh did I mention that some of those LOCKED engines are nerfed already ??? Stormcrow 330xl, thats supposed to have 3 DHS slots built in (like an IS 325 engine right ?) - BUT it gets ZERO built in heatsinks. ZERO. For a 330xl engine. WTF. I NEVER see IS players mention this tidbit ! Oh no.

There is a HUGE trade off. If I could boat effective Dakka (minus the Dire, which I dont own) on my clan mechs, vs all the laser vomit I'm forced to use, I WOULD DROP THAT BIG ENGINE IN A HEARTBEAT. And happily go slower and be less agile in order to boat weapons that are far more effective in this game.

Players need to stop acting like clan speed and agility is a free awesome bonus buff that IS doesnt have access too. Realize its a BIG FAST NERF. And the IS can have it too.

Now, the losing a ST bonus, I give you that. But clans are already paying for that benefit in many other ways. I'd be happy to see IS XL engines changed so that they can lose 1 ST as well. If the devs really need to they could sell an upgraded version of the standard IS XL for 50% more to validate it.

Anyone saying Clan XL's are faster is just..wrong. Clan XLs are simply better due to survivability. I'd not even think of putting an IS XL in any of my Assaults, but a Clan XL, that's a no brainer, of course I would use it, half the tonnage of a STD, don't die when that ST gets blown off, run a little hotter and lose some top end speed, but STILL alive and kicking, unlike an IS XL. Currently, Clan XL equipped, lose a ST, you run a little hotter, 20%, which no one even noticed happening. Mainly because losing a ST in a Clan Mech usually means half or more weapons are lost as well, so your heat production drops drastically.

As for the rest, you DO realize that the balancing factor being used for OmniMechs is why you can't swap engines, move around hardwired DHS, FF/ES, and anything else hardwired in, right? It's straight from the TT game, the only restrictions Omni's have, Clan or IS, hardwired equipment. Now, PGI DID screw up by not making the OmniPods actual OMNI, that needs to be changed, no OmniMech should be unable to equip any weapon type in any Pod space unless there isn't enough space/tonnage for it. Missiles, Ballistics, Energy, all should be an option in every Pod, it IS the entire point of the OmniMech and Pod system in the first place, why PGI neutered it this way, who knows, misguided balance attempt I guess. It doesn't balance them out, it just weakens them when combined with rest of the OmniMech construction rules, so fix that PGI.

Oh, and boating dakka on anything but the Dire, eh, not such a great move until they make Clan uACs/ACs worthwhile. I use them myself, do well with them, but I'm the first to point out how useless they really are when compared to the IS ballistics.

[Karl Streiger]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Oh, and boating dakka on anything but the Dire, eh, not such a great move until they make Clan uACs/ACs worthwhile. I use them myself, do well with them, but I'm the first to point out how useless they really are when compared to the IS ballistics.

you made me sad - i really like this Ultra AC 10 on my Gargamel - its the only weapon option that leaves enough room for a secondary armament that don't cook you

a shorter burst .- say 2 bullets a 5dmg will simple be almost as effective as 2 IS Ultra 5s.....10 vs 18tons. Not a option
so you need a minimum of 3 bullets - and the difference between 3 or 4 bullets is not that bad.

a absolute no go - make it 1 shot for 10 dmg.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Karl Streiger, on 25 March 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

you made me sad - i really like this Ultra AC 10 on my Gargamel - its the only weapon option that leaves enough room for a secondary armament that don't cook you

a shorter burst .- say 2 bullets a 5dmg will simple be almost as effective as 2 IS Ultra 5s.....10 vs 18tons. Not a option
so you need a minimum of 3 bullets - and the difference between 3 or 4 bullets is not that bad.

a absolute no go - make it 1 shot for 10 dmg.

It makes me very sad to say it, I love ballistics. My Hellbringer runs 2xuAC5s or uAC20, I do quite well with them, but I'm also aware that that's ME, not the weapon, a lot of time spent learning them and trying to master them.

I'm actually good with the multiple round burst action on all the Clan uACs/ACs, that's not the issue, it's the projectile speed and/or time/distance between rounds in a burst, depending on who you ask. Personally, I would go with a decrease in the time between rounds in the burst, the projectile speeds themselves seems to be ok really, it's just that spacing BETWEEN the rounds that makes them damn near worthless. Hitreg issues really compound that as well, nothing like lining up on a cockpit at 30m on a disconnected Mech with my uAC20, double tapping it, and seeing..stripped off the head armor and that's it. Sorry, excuse me, WTBF, I just dumped 40 damage into that cockpit, why is it ONLY showing 20 damage? Oh, hitreg, right, the great equalizer...*sigh*

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Anyone saying Clan XL's are faster is just..wrong. Clan XLs are simply better due to survivability. I'd not even think of putting an IS XL in any of my Assaults, but a Clan XL, that's a no brainer, of course I would use it, half the tonnage of a STD, don't die when that ST gets blown off, run a little hotter and lose some top end speed, but STILL alive and kicking, unlike an IS XL. Currently, Clan XL equipped, lose a ST, you run a little hotter, 20%, which no one even noticed happening. Mainly because losing a ST in a Clan Mech usually means half or more weapons are lost as well, so your heat production drops drastically.

As for the rest, you DO realize that the balancing factor being used for OmniMechs is why you can't swap engines, move around hardwired DHS, FF/ES, and anything else hardwired in, right? It's straight from the TT game, the only restrictions Omni's have, Clan or IS, hardwired equipment. Now, PGI DID screw up by not making the OmniPods actual OMNI, that needs to be changed, no OmniMech should be unable to equip any weapon type in any Pod space unless there isn't enough space/tonnage for it. Missiles, Ballistics, Energy, all should be an option in every Pod, it IS the entire point of the OmniMech and Pod system in the first place, why PGI neutered it this way, who knows, misguided balance attempt I guess. It doesn't balance them out, it just weakens them when combined with rest of the OmniMech construction rules, so fix that PGI.

Oh, and boating dakka on anything but the Dire, eh, not such a great move until they make Clan uACs/ACs worthwhile. I use them myself, do well with them, but I'm the first to point out how useless they really are when compared to the IS ballistics.

the problem is those fixed engine sizes never were a balancing factor, They were a horrible bad balance on some emchs who came stock with a not so good engine or crappy fixed equip (MLX IFR). They were okish on some mechs where stock engine was okish. they were good on some mechs where this made sense (MDD, HBR), it was beast on mechs having stock the very very good sizes (TBR, SCR). But trying to balance engines when the majority is at disadvantage by these old a balance feature is just not the right way.

Do you think the xl nerfed SCR is weaker thna a non xl nerfed Nova? No its not. but the Nova pilots will keave that already poainfully bad chassis and go SCR, creating even more imbalance than existed before.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lily from animove, on 25 March 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

the problem is those fixed engine sizes never were a balancing factor, They were a horrible bad balance on some emchs who came stock with a not so good engine or crappy fixed equip (MLX IFR). They were okish on some mechs where stock engine was okish. they were good on some mechs where this made sense (MDD, HBR), it was beast on mechs having stock the very very good sizes (TBR, SCR). But trying to balance engines when the majority is at disadvantage by these old a balance feature is just not the right way.

Do you think the xl nerfed SCR is weaker thna a non xl nerfed Nova? No its not. but the Nova pilots will keave that already poainfully bad chassis and go SCR, creating even more imbalance than existed before.

Again, the engine and other hardwired equipment restrictions are there for a good reason, you don't like them, don't use them or learn to deal with them as they sit. I look at the Trinity and I don't see the issue, even if you could swap out the engines, you can't HONESTLY tell me you'd go with a Clan STD engine over a Clan XL, no one would, it's a flat out lie to say otherwise, even with the heat/speed hit if you lose the ST, that XL is the best choice. Lie to me some more Lily.

And, uhm, pray tell Lily, who uses the Nova outside of PUGs in non-CW drops? I've seen 1 in CW, PUG Clan group, guess it was a Trial Mech, because that's the only 1 I've seen so far. It's a fun Mech, I love it myself, but I also run a very short ranged config, 10 ERSL and 4 MGuns, which is pretty damn pointless in CW, even with my range/cd mods for the ERSL(cd for clan lasers..I'm a masochist right?). Don't typically see anything but the Trinity in CW, unless it's pure PUG drop for the Clan side or one of the Clan Wolf teams, oddly enough, they seem to be about the only large teams I've seen Clan side who drop without the Trinity. They also tend to get stomped by 12 man IS PUGs in CW, so, go figure right? Why a large team would take non-optimal Mechs is probably beyond some here, but I get it, they are having FUN! I know, weird right, who the hell wants to just have fun? But even dropping against them, I haven't seen Novas, everything else, even Summoners, but not any Novas, people just don't like that little hotbox on legs for some reason...

Keep trying to point out the less than optimal Mechs the Clans have Lily, nice deflection move there, but it doesn't matter, the Clan XL change has nothing to do with which Clan Mech is OP or UP, it has to do with the Clan XL being OP in and of itself and that's the reason the change is being done. Quirks can be used to buff up the non-Trinity, Kerensky knows they NEED it with the damned completely overboard IS quirks going on.

BTW, I don't use the Scrow, I much prefer to use my Nova, I just like it better. I know the SCrow is so hot because of it's borked to hell hitboxs, once those get fixed, it'll be probably still be a part of the Trinity, but it won't be quite as deadly once it can be HIT.

[Karl Streiger]

There is the funny stuff about the Mk1 Omnis - the Timber and the stormcrow were the one tha you hardly could made better.
Only options for Timber is to remove some engine heatsinks - good for dual Gauss but every energy loadout is worse

[Adamski]

If Clan Omni could swap to the SAME rating but in Standard instead of cXL, they would cry bloody murder at the tonnage they just lost.
If the same tonnage engine but in Standard instead of cXL by downgrading the rating, they would immediately lose 20% speed and 20% engine heatsinks WITHOUT EVEN LOSING A TORSO.

BUT

I would be agreeable to unlocking the Omni mechlab completely IF the range of engines was limited to within 25 rating of their default engine.

Edited by Adamski, 25 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[lshtaria]

I only follow the official forum so unfortunately I can't keep up to date with the latest ideas as I don't twit.

What's the craic with the potential clan st nerf? I'm not aligned to any side and I have all IS and clan packs on the 1 account. Personally I don't think a 20% speed reduction and a 20% loss of truedubs is a bad thing, in fact it should be implemented asap. If a clan's st goes, it's just lost 20% of its engine crits so let me run some numbers for a moment...

...yep 20% speed and truedub loss sounds about right. 89.1 down to 71.3 if you have speed tweak. 20 base heat capacity down to 16.

You just lost a chunk of your engine. What do you expect? Diehard clanners really are unbelievable whingers.

[Aethon]

Once again, you are not blowing off 20% of the mech's engine; you are only destroying part of its heat shielding. A heat spike is all that will result. If you were to so much as crack the engine housing itself, it would not lose power, or slow the mech down; it would shut down.

ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER TO THE ACTUAL FUSION POWERPLANT ITSELF WILL COMPLETELY DISABLE IT.

Increase the heat penalty if you want...the speed needs to be left alone.

[Adamski]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Once again, you are not blowing off 20% of the mech's engine; you are only destroying part of its heat shielding. A heat spike is all that will result. If you were to so much as crack the engine housing itself, it would not lose power, or slow the mech down; it would shut down.

ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER TO THE ACTUAL FUSION POWERPLANT ITSELF WILL COMPLETELY DISABLE IT.

Increase the heat penalty if you want...the speed needs to be left alone.

2 engine criticals in TT is 10 heat per turn
10 heat on the heat scale is 2 movement per turn

I think that the proposed changes seem inline with the spirit of the game.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Once again, you are not blowing off 20% of the mech's engine; you are only destroying part of its heat shielding. A heat spike is all that will result. If you were to so much as crack the engine housing itself, it would not lose power, or slow the mech down; it would shut down.

ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER TO THE ACTUAL FUSION POWERPLANT ITSELF WILL COMPLETELY DISABLE IT.

Increase the heat penalty if you want...the speed needs to be left alone.

PGI already DID the heat penalty,it's been in the game for a while now, it's SO horrible that no one noticed it was in the game. Heat is actually supposed to cause a loss of speed, so that's what Russ is proposing now, add a slow down, 10-20%, to the already existing 20% heat dissipation loss, see if THAT has any effect.

[Aethon]

Adamski, on 25 March 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

2 engine criticals in TT is 10 heat per turn
10 heat on the heat scale is 2 movement per turn

I think that the proposed changes seem inline with the spirit of the game.

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

PGI already DID the heat penalty,it's been in the game for a while now, it's SO horrible that no one noticed it was in the game. Heat is actually supposed to cause a loss of speed, so that's what Russ is proposing now, add a slow down, 10-20%, to the already existing 20% heat dissipation loss, see if THAT has any effect.

Heat only causes a loss in speed if you are overheating. It is not an automatic loss in movement speed.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

PGI already DID the heat penalty,it's been in the game for a while now, it's SO horrible that no one noticed it was in the game. Heat is actually supposed to cause a loss of speed, so that's what Russ is proposing now, add a slow down, 10-20%, to the already existing 20% heat dissipation loss, see if THAT has any effect.

You notice on the sword and board builds...I promise you notice...stuff like TW laser vomit (which it was mostly aimed at...) took less of a hit, but the build is symmetrical.

[Adamski]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Heat only causes a loss in speed if you are overheating. It is not an automatic loss in movement speed.

If you generate 10 more heat in a turn than you can heat sink, then you lose 2 movement points on the next turn because you will be at 10 on the heat scale. IE: Adder fires 2x cERPPC for 30 heat, has 10 DHS, next turn it is at 10 heat and has movement reduced.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Heat only causes a loss in speed if you are overheating. It is not an automatic loss in movement speed.

And Mechs don't do 10% over the speed they should either, your point? This is to address the OP nature of the Clan XL, nothing more, nothing less. Current adjustments to address this haven't been effective, so Russ is wanting to try something else.

Gyrok, no one notices it enough to realize it's been in the game for a while now, and that literally says it all.