716 replies to this topic

[Vandul]

What is this St. Loss stuff? Is this a new album by Metallica or something?

[lshtaria]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Once again, you are not blowing off 20% of the mech's engine; you are only destroying part of its heat shielding. A heat spike is all that will result. If you were to so much as crack the engine housing itself, it would not lose power, or slow the mech down; it would shut down.

ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER TO THE ACTUAL FUSION POWERPLANT ITSELF WILL COMPLETELY DISABLE IT.

Increase the heat penalty if you want...the speed needs to be left alone.

Typical whinging clanner response.

Please, I know it's difficult for you to do, but stop looking into the canon wordings for any excuse you can find for PGI not to drop speed after st loss and just think about the gameplay around you.

You'll be a better person for it.

[Gyrok]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

And Mechs don't do 10% over the speed they should either, your point? This is to address the OP nature of the Clan XL, nothing more, nothing less. Current adjustments to address this haven't been effective, so Russ is wanting to try something else.

Gyrok, no one notices it enough to realize it's been in the game for a while now, and that literally says it all.

I have noticed for quite some time...I just never complained because...well...I could deal with it. Now, stacking nerfs upon nerfs upon nerfs is starting to get old.

[lshtaria]

Ozealot, on 25 March 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Just remember IS engines loose two slots too before going crit. XL and standard. "You'll be a better person for it."

Stop liking your own posts. You'll be a better person for it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Ozealot, on 25 March 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Just remember IS engines loose two slots too before going crit. XL and standard. "You'll be a better person for it."

Indeed, and most of us are perfectly fine with that, at least the Clan Mechs won't be dead once that side torso is gone.

[Aethon]

Kyocera, on 25 March 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Typical whinging clanner response.

Please, I know it's difficult for you to do, but stop looking into the canon wordings for any excuse you can find for PGI not to drop speed after st loss and just think about the gameplay around you.

You'll be a better person for it.

Typical whinging spheroid response.

If you want to ignore Battletech, go play Gundam or Armored Core. The whole point of MechWarrior is to have a game that is part of a universe many of us really like.

Furthermore, this game is far better balanced than most are willing to admit. I do not have this problem while piloting my IS mechs; why do you?

[Aethon]

Adamski, on 25 March 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

If you generate 10 more heat in a turn than you can heat sink, then you lose 2 movement points on the next turn because you will be at 10 on the heat scale. IE: Adder fires 2x cERPPC for 30 heat, has 10 DHS, next turn it is at 10 heat and has movement reduced.

*IF* you generate more than you can dissipate, yes. But, again, it is not an automatic 'shielding damaged, movement reduced' sort of penalty. The penalty applies to the heatscale and its effects, not the engine or myomers that actually move the mech.

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

And Mechs don't do 10% over the speed they should either, your point? This is to address the OP nature of the Clan XL, nothing more, nothing less. Current adjustments to address this haven't been effective, so Russ is wanting to try something else.

Gyrok, no one notices it enough to realize it's been in the game for a while now, and that literally says it all.

The Clan XL is only OP if you consider ONLY that, against its IS equivalent. The problem is, you are taking one small part of the equation, and ignoring the rest. Many of the downsides of the in-game Clan mechs are only apparent after you play them all, in various situations; they are often not things that will show up in stat sheets.

You are also proposing a nerf to some of the crappiest mechs in the game, which is where I am most strongly opposed to it. Sure, the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are great mechs (with the Stormcrow being, frankly, broken), but why the hell does the Adder need to be nerfed, for example?

[Listless Nomad]

No one can stop St. Loss!

For he is the patron Saint of losing and blaming the pugs and/or quirks. Martyred by the ban hammer - he died so that all of us my find excuses for our losing! Turn aside from your ill conceived "nerfs" and repent so that thy K/D and thy honor might be saved!

Blessed is St Loss!

Edited by Listless Nomad, 25 March 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[Hillslam]

19 pages of people refusing to accept that going 80% of full speed is better than dieing

[Kristov Kerensky]

Ozealot, on 25 March 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

You don't even have the heat penalty atm when your engine looses two slots. Maybe PGI should implement that first, so you can get a picture.

I happen to have quite a few Clan Mechs, Mastered Kit Fox, Nova, Summoner, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Dire Wolf, and I was aware of the heat hit when it was applied and took out all my Clan Mechs to see how bad the hit would be. Guess what, even my Nova, my hottest running Omni, wasn't affected enough to notice. Worst I saw was my Hellbringer, some nub blew my RIGHT Torso off and I noticed the heat, instead of just running hot, I was running rather hot. If I wasn't aware of the heat hit when losing a side torso, I wouldn't have noticed it at all, same as the majority of the people running Clan Mechs don't notice it and think it's something that is GOING to be added with the speed loss.

Any doubts that people didn't realize it was in, show me the posts where people were complaining about it. It's so massively underwhelming that no one noticed.

Care to try again about how bad it is?

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

*IF* you generate more than you can dissipate, yes. But, again, it is not an automatic 'shielding damaged, movement reduced' sort of penalty. The penalty applies to the heatscale and its effects, not the engine or myomers that actually move the mech.



The Clan XL is only OP if you consider ONLY that, against its IS equivalent. The problem is, you are taking one small part of the equation, and ignoring the rest. Many of the downsides of the in-game Clan mechs are only apparent after you play them all, in various situations; they are often not things that will show up in stat sheets.

You are also proposing a nerf to some of the crappiest mechs in the game, which is where I am most strongly opposed to it. Sure, the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are great mechs (with the Stormcrow being, frankly, broken), but why the hell does the Adder need to be nerfed, for example?

The Clan XL IS only being considered OP in comparison to the IS XL, THAT is what you don't get. I'm all for engine criticals being applied across the board, PLEASE ADD THAT!

10-20% speed loss...that is NOT instant death, it's loss of Speed Tweak to a 10% hit to top stock speed if you have Speed Tweak. 23kph is the most massive speed drop, and that's for the Arctic Cheetah once it comes and you have Speed Tweak. Yeah, the math has been done, it's not that massive of a speed drop for any Mech, despite what some try to portray. Speed loss is so small that it's not going to mean life or death, there's no stunlock like losing a leg, just a loss of top speed.

There are Clan Mechs that need some love, that's true, I've stated it and what I think should be done to fix them, that doesn't change that the Clan XL is OP compared to it's IS counterpart and this change MIGHT correct that, hence Russ proposing it.

Oh, yeah, RUSS came up with this, this wasn't a player thing, it was a PGI thing, seems the data from CW shows the heat hit wasn't having any effect at all, so this is the next step.

[Aethon]

Kristov Kerensky, on 25 March 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

The Clan XL IS only being considered OP in comparison to the IS XL, THAT is what you don't get. I'm all for engine criticals being applied across the board, PLEASE ADD THAT!

10-20% speed loss...that is NOT instant death, it's loss of Speed Tweak to a 10% hit to top stock speed if you have Speed Tweak. 23kph is the most massive speed drop, and that's for the Arctic Cheetah once it comes and you have Speed Tweak. Yeah, the math has been done, it's not that massive of a speed drop for any Mech, despite what some try to portray. Speed loss is so small that it's not going to mean life or death, there's no stunlock like losing a leg, just a loss of top speed.

There are Clan Mechs that need some love, that's true, I've stated it and what I think should be done to fix them, that doesn't change that the Clan XL is OP compared to it's IS counterpart and this change MIGHT correct that, hence Russ proposing it.

Oh, yeah, RUSS came up with this, this wasn't a player thing, it was a PGI thing, seems the data from CW shows the heat hit wasn't having any effect at all, so this is the next step.

Taking the Clan XL out of the equation and measuring it against IS XL without any other consideration, would be like considering the IS AC/20 against the Clan AC/20 and saying that the IS one is better, so all IS mechs that carry one should be nerfed. That would ignore every other facet of the game, and make a faction-wide blind nerf based on one statistic.

My main point is this: Please, for the love of Blake and all that is holy, please do not nerf the Adder, Kit Fox, Nova, Summoner, and Gargoyle until they are somewhat close to being on-par with their competitors, IS or otherwise.

[Aethon]

Hillslam, on 25 March 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

19 pages of people refusing to accept that going 80% of full speed is better than dieing

20 pages of people ignoring half the argument, sticking their fingers in their ears, and screaming about the stuff on the other side being broken.

As has been mentioned time and time again here, and also ignored repeatedly, is that most Clan mechs do not need any sort of nerf, as they are mediocre at best. Would you arrest everyone in an apartment building because one guy in there did something wrong? If not, then why would you support a nerf of all Clan mechs, when there are only a few that actually deserve it?

[G is for Gamma]

Listless Nomad, on 25 March 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

No one can stop St. Loss!

For he is the patron Saint of losing and blaming the pugs and/or quirks. Martyred by the ban hammer - he died so that all of us my find excuses for our losing! Turn aside from your ill conceived "nerfs" and repent so that thy K/D and thy honor might be saved!

The Space Vatican remembers the sacrifice of Saint Loss and extends his blessings to all those who fear that soon their over powered Streakcrows and Laser Vomit Timberwolves might be slightly less ridiculous.

[Aethon]

G is for Gamma, on 25 March 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

The Space Vatican remembers the sacrifice of Saint Loss and extends his blessings to all those who fear that soon their over powered Streakcrows and Laser Vomit Timberwolves might be slightly less ridiculous.

Yes, because the Adder and Summoner pilots should pay for the sins of the Stormcrow and Timberwolf pilots, right?

[Pjwned]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Once again, you are not blowing off 20% of the mech's engine; you are only destroying part of its heat shielding. A heat spike is all that will result. If you were to so much as crack the engine housing itself, it would not lose power, or slow the mech down; it would shut down.

ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER TO THE ACTUAL FUSION POWERPLANT ITSELF WILL COMPLETELY DISABLE IT.

Increase the heat penalty if you want...the speed needs to be left alone.

I would think that a crippling heat penalty would be less desirable than a reasonable heat penalty as well as losing speed, but okay...

How much of an increased heat penalty do you expect it would take to make things fair? It clearly needs to be significant so don't throw out a BS lowball number, but I would expect it to be a 40-50% internal heatsink loss if there's no speed penalty, and that doesn't sound like as good of an option to me.

Ozealot, on 25 March 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

I don't want to know how you feel about the effect. I want you to know that I think IS mechs should have the same penalty. Since when do critical hits only apply to non-IS mechs?

Last time I checked having your mech destroyed from your IS XL engine being blown out in the side torso is a pretty big critical hit effect.

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

20 pages of people ignoring half the argument, sticking their fingers in their ears, and screaming about the stuff on the other side being broken.

As has been mentioned time and time again here, and also ignored repeatedly, is that most Clan mechs do not need any sort of nerf, as they are mediocre at best. Would you arrest everyone in an apartment building because one guy in there did something wrong? If not, then why would you support a nerf of all Clan mechs, when there are only a few that actually deserve it?

That argument is largely being ignored because your solution is to pick & choose mechs to arbitrarily nerf instead of applying a fair, consistent penalty to all clan mechs (since all of them have clan XL engines) that makes at least a reasonable amount of sense (i.e not paying attention to half-assed lore excuses for why it shouldn't happen) while those lower tier mechs are already being addressed with quirks right now.

Edited by Pjwned, 25 March 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Pjwned]

Ozealot, on 25 March 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

And this thread is about implementing critical effects when you loose 2 slots, not 3 as you just described. Or how much are in a sidetorso when using a Clan XL? That's a rethorical one. Just sayin' because you seem to be not the brightest. Clan engines are "blown out" too when they loose 3 slots. Maybe new info for you. You want heat/speed effects for Clan engines when they loose two slots? IS engines can loose two slots too. You want balance? So prepare to enjoy the same effect for IS engines. But your just an IS fanboy who wants an unfair advantage.

Sorry, I forgot that losing a portion of your engine shouldn't mean anything unless you're piloting an IS mech, my bad; nice goalpost moving by the way.

If you want "the same effect for IS engines" then what do you propose that would not be largely irrelevant when you already lose 3 engine slots easily with IS XL engines?

Edited by Pjwned, 25 March 2015 - 05:46 PM.

[Aethon]

Pjwned, on 25 March 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I would think that a crippling heat penalty would be less desirable than a reasonable heat penalty as well as losing speed, but okay...

How much of an increased heat penalty do you expect it would take to make things fair? It clearly needs to be significant so don't throw out a BS lowball number, but I would expect it to be a 40-50% internal heatsink loss if there's no speed penalty, and that doesn't sound like as good of an option to me.

Penalty of 10 heat dissipation per time period...10-12 seconds, maybe. This could be adjusted up or down as needed.

Pjwned, on 25 March 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

That argument is largely being ignored because your solution is to pick & choose mechs to arbitrarily nerf instead of applying a fair, consistent penalty to all clan mechs (since all of them have clan XL engines) that makes at least a reasonable amount of sense (i.e not paying attention to half-assed lore excuses for why it shouldn't happen) while those lower tier mechs are already being addressed with quirks right now.

It is not arbitrary; the whole point of balancing is to keep a select few mechs, such as the Stormcrow, from being blatantly more powerful than others, such as the Nova. There is nothing fair about nerfing poorly-performing mechs just because two others perform above-average.

And not all the low-tier mechs have been addressed with quirks. Take the Adder, for example.

Edited by Aethon, 25 March 2015 - 05:25 PM.

[lshtaria]

Aethon, on 25 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Wow...like a small child, throwing sand on the playground.

Not really. I'm someone who sits on the fence between IS and clan. You're the epitome of a clanner who is desperate to retain some kind of superiority over IS and you just can't see it.

[Aethon]

Kyocera, on 25 March 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

Not really. I'm someone who sits on the fence between IS and clan. You're the epitome of a clanner who is desperate to retain some kind of superiority over IS and you just can't see it.

Funny, since I almost never use Clan mechs. Just ask the people I drop with; they have to do pub drops if they want to drop with me, because CW does not allow me to take IS mechs.

So, in short, it has nothing to do with my personal superiority; I can kill Clan mechs just fine the way they are.

Again, some Clan mechs need balancing/nerfing/fixed hitboxes. A blanket nerf to all of them, IMHO, is not the answer.

[lshtaria]

It's not the answer to many problems but if you can't see that a 20% speed and heatsink loss is just the right thing to do then you're a monumental moron.