264 replies to this topic

[Shredhead]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

Why are you comparing the Clan lights to one of the worst mechs mediums before they were quirked?

Because it could not even compete with a machine that's 20 tons lighter?

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That's a rigged comparison, and even then, at least one of the Hunchbacks could take the Kit Fox.

Really now? Which one would that be?

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With quirks though, the Hunchback absolutely shows the differences between the two.

As it should.

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You know the 6 LL Stalker has never run an XL engine, ever...

No sh*t Sherlock. Duh.

[MischiefSC]

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Because it could not even compete with a machine that's 20 tons lighter?

Really now? Which one would that be?

As it should.

No sh*t Sherlock. Duh.

So, wait a second - are we saying that with quirks a Hunchback, at 50 tons, is a better mech than the Kit Fox at 35 tons?

So... like 15 tons better?

Are we saying a Hunchback with quirks is almost equal to a Stormcrow, which is only 5 tons heavier?

Oh, wait. No. No, not at all.

If a Hunchie isn't overall better than a Kit Fox at fighting (not account for ECM and 3xAMS, superior Clan BAP, etc) then it's totally broken. Currently it's only mostly broken. The engine nerfs will help balance that out considerably.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Because it could not even compete with a machine that's 20 tons lighter?

It couldn't compete against the Firestarter either, again, your comparison is kinda faulty to "show off" the power of Clan lights.

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Really now? Which one would that be?

If they are competing against each other with similar roles, the 4H and 4P would probably be the safest bet. Maybe the 4SP, maybe.....

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

No sh*t Sherlock. Duh.

What the hell was the point in bringing up XLs then? If you are trying to compare the Timby vs the Stalker, the Timby wins, but not by a wide margin. Even then, because of how speed is derived that is still a faulty comparison. Regardless, the 6 LL or 4 ERLL Stalker is definitely a powerful assault despite its disadvantages as an IS mech.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 10:12 PM.

[Shredhead]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

So, wait a second - are we saying that with quirks a Hunchback, at 50 tons, is a better mech than the Kit Fox at 35 tons?

So... like 15 tons better?

Kit Fox is 30 tons, but yes, that's what I was saying.

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Are we saying a Hunchback with quirks is almost equal to a Stormcrow, which is only 5 tons heavier?

Equal? No, not completely, but I wouldn't run from a fight with one anymore. Still very squishy, but that's the geometry.

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Oh, wait. No. No, not at all.

If a Hunchie isn't overall better than a Kit Fox at fighting (not account for ECM and 3xAMS, superior Clan BAP, etc) then it's totally broken. Currently it's only mostly broken. The engine nerfs will help balance that out considerably.

I would not even say broken. Imbalanced still, yes. Engine "nerfs" will help the balance. Clans really don't suffer from slow chassis.

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

It couldn't compete against the Firestarter either, again, your comparison is kinda faulty to "show off" the power of Clan lights.

Against unquirked Firestarters it had a better chance than against i.e. an Adder (which is 35 tons). It did wipe the floor with Spiders and Commandos, though.

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If they are competing against each other with similar roles, the 4H and 4P would probably be the safest bet. Maybe the 4SP, maybe.....

The 4P without quirks was bad, as was the 4H. The 4SP was undergunned for a long time, and it still is.

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What the hell was the point in bringing up XLs then? If you are trying to compare the Timby vs the Stalker, the Timby wins, but not by a wide margin. Even then, because of how speed is derived that is still a faulty comparison. Regardless, the 6 LL or 4 ERLL Stalker is definitely a powerful assault despite its disadvantages as an IS mech.

An XL engine saves weight which can then be invested in more DHS, something clan mechs can do. Not being able to use one means the HE on the 4N is bad already with 5 LL, and abysmal with 6. It is also slow. Of course it is a powerful assault, but it has its drawbacks and is not OP.

[Praehotec8]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 March 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Why do all the Whiners seem to be from Clan Wolf?

OK, to be fair, there are a few Smoking Jags that QQ quite a bit too. But Most self respecting Bears and Falcons don't seem to have an issue..........

Performance Anxiety, perhaps?

Hey now, not all of us feel the change will break the world. To some degree it makes some sense, given that 1/3 of the engine is gone. I don't think it will be as huge a problem as most think. However, I DO still think that FF and endo should be optional on more of the clan mechs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

An XL engine saves weight which can then be invested in more DHS, something clan mechs can do. Not being able to use one means the HE on the 4N is bad already with 5 LL, and abysmal with 6. It is also slow. Of course it is a powerful assault, but it has its drawbacks and is not OP.

Switching to an XL is better suited to mount ballistics on an Assault than lasers and more DHS, regardless of the tech. If the Warhawk had could drop a couple DHS and add a few energy hardpoints to mixup with the Ballistics, 2 Gauss-4 ERML would be one of the best Warhawks and definitely be more competitive overall.

The problem with this however is that outside the 100 tonners on both sides, none of them can maximize on that potential for ballistics.

As to the HE of the 5LL Stalker, that has better HE than the Laser Vomit Timby, so it can't be that bad. Actually it is almost on par with the Gauss vomit Timby as far as HE goes and that is pretty manageable.

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Against unquirked Firestarters it had a better chance than against i.e. an Adder (which is 35 tons). It did wipe the floor with Spiders and Commandos, though.

You overestimate the quirks on the Firestarters, especially if we are talking pre-nerf MGs on the Ember. Sorry but that speed can make all the difference, and it has been that way since before quirks since Kit Foxes/Adders have never usurped the Firestarters in the competitive arena since their introduction. They have always been worse than Jenners/Firestarters even before quirks.

Shredhead, on 17 March 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

The 4P without quirks was bad, as was the 4H. The 4SP was undergunned for a long time, and it still is.

The 4SP was undergunned and I would agree still is which is why I would say maybe. The 4P and 4H were also bad, but I would still say the fight could go either way depending on what they were built for.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 10:55 PM.

[Shredhead]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

Switching to an XL is better suited to mount ballistics on an Assault than lasers and more DHS, regardless of the tech.

That's not quite right. Especially for the big lasers you need a crapton of heat sinks, and this is especially important for the 80-90 ton range of assaults (see Battlemaster). The IS doesn't have that much of a problem boating ACs, they can trade speed for firepower. Omni mechs have way higher imbalance between their own chassis in that regard, due to not being able to swap out the engine. There's only monsters (Dire Whale) or wimps until there's more variety.

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If the Warhawk had could drop a couple DHS and add a few energy hardpoints to mixup with the Ballistics, 2 Gauss-4 ERML would be one of the best Warhawks and definitely be more competitive overall.

The problem with this however is that outside the 100 tonners on both sides, none of them can maximize on that potential for ballistics.

As to the HE of the 5LL Stalker, that has better HE than the Laser Vomit Timby, so it can't be that bad. Actually it is almost on par with the Gauss vomit Timby as far as HE goes and that is pretty manageable.

Don't be fooled by that HE number. Clan mechs can take way more DHS, which makes them dissipate faster. This means the initial heat spike is higher, but they are faster cooled down. It depends of course how much heat you pack in a clan mech.

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You overestimate the quirks on the Firestarters, especially if we are talking pre-nerf MGs on the Ember. Sorry but that speed can make all the difference, and it has been that way since before quirks since Kit Foxes/Adders have never usurped the Firestarters in the competitive arena since their introduction. They have always been worse than Jenners/Firestarters even before quirks.

That depends. We use Kit Foxes from time to time especially in the low drops.

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The 4SP was undergunned and I would agree still is which is why I would say maybe. The 4P and 4H were also bad, but I would still say the fight could go either way depending on what they were built for.

I'm not convinced of that. But I do like the 4H now with quirks.

[Mad Strike]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Please, It's a bad idea when it is about speed reduction.

Clanners can not change their engines, they have not the standard variant available.


And the very most important why to not do this:

Its an unbalanced effect on the clanmechs.
Clanmechs are bound to their Engines sizes, this nerf hits the SCR, the NVA the IFR completely differently hard.
And so this nerf does distribute totally differently amongst the clanmechs causing more chaos in the balance than it actually does fix, especially in the interclan balance.
You can not increase engine size to adjust the slower clanmechs to proper speed after ST death. and mechs like the gargoyle that sacrifice a unhealthy amount of weight into an oversized engine will just have adressed pointless tonnage into this speed. Clans can also not switch to a standard engine.

Clans get quirks now, and then putting such an idea on the table as well will just mess up balance totally after some have received quirks and some not.

If anything, then buff the IS XL's to be not a ST death. They still consume 2 more slots in eahc sidetorso. That would probably be way better, it would also increase the low ttk by letting some is mechs survive a bit longer. And scrubs using an XL engine in an XL unsuited shaped mech will have a bit less harder time. Which also helps to equal out the lesser experienced IS newbie pilots skillgap.

yadda yadda yadda ....ey it's a good idea...don't like it....pff... your problem. Plus they might change the penalty values on each chassi.

[Joseph Mallan]

strikebrch, on 18 March 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

yadda yadda yadda ....ey it's a good idea...don't like it....pff... your problem. Plus they might change the penalty values on each chassi.

The Penalty for engine hits is increased heat not less speed. You are not hitting the engine you are damaging reactor shielding. Physics of teh Universe you are playing in.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 March 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

The Penalty for engine hits is increased heat not less speed. You are not hitting the engine you are damaging reactor shielding. Physics of teh Universe you are playing in.

I'm sure your right for BT. But people would probably hate a huge heat spike even more then what they got.

If I was a clanner (especially in the current laser vomit meta), I think I would rather lose speed tweak when a side torso is gone vs a huge heat spike that limited me to practically being forced to chain fire my weapons.

Besides, I think the previous MechWarrior games equated engine critical hits to lower speed. Not saying it was right, but it is consistent with MechWarrior titles anyway.

[Joseph Mallan]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 March 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

I'm sure your right for BT. But people would probably hate a huge heat spike even more then what they got.

If I was a clanner (especially in the current laser vomit meta), I think I would rather lose speed tweak when a side torso is gone vs a huge heat spike that limited me to practically being forced to chain fire my weapons.

Besides, I think the previous MechWarrior games equated engine critical hits to lower speed. Not saying it was right, but it is consistent with MechWarrior titles anyway.

I'd hate it too but it is the proper consequence for engine damage.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 March 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

I'd hate it too but it is the proper consequence for engine damage.

Really the current nerf is so small when you think about it. It basically equates to losing speed tweak.

In any case, sure we could add the heat spike, BUT we would have to add heat penalties for IS mechs too I suppose. It would probably be equal to losing the heat containment base quirk in an IS since it can't lose an engine location without going *pop".

Maybe if this more widespread nerf hit, the Clanners wouldn't be losing their minds right now.

[Lily from animove]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

You do realize it takes less time to charge up gauss than it does for the ERML to burn its full duration right? You can also time it so that when you peek, you are firing your Gauss immediately and lay into them with lasers. Projectile flight time for the Gauss is 2000m, which is tied for fastest projectile with the AC2, it isn't hard to aim with, even with lasers.

CASE is supposed to stop Gauss explosions, but is currently bugged and a fix is expected soon, so that is a different issue.



As for CW, yes, it doesn't work the best for it, but that is more to do with the design flaws of CW than the design of the mech.



You aren't generating as much heat per alpha though, so that lower threshold doesn't mean anything since I can still alpha more than the laser vomit. If you asymmetrical builds are a bad thing, you may want to look at what is used by the more competitive teams.

Look, both are good mechs, but the Gauss vomit build is definitely not a bad build like you seem to suggest and is actually a fairly common combination as far as clan mechs go.

since you combine the gauss with the ML, you will anyways have this burn time, and when you react on a surprise attack vs an opponent that dissappears quiclly again you may be able to to give him 0,5 seconds of laserbeam, while your gauss is still charging and eady when he is already gone again. lasers fire instant and deal damage instant. gauss only if already charged up.

and no, why is it a CW design issue? Ammo should limit a weapons usage, thats the point of it, thats the downside of having a cooler weapon. If this would be gon ein CW, CW would be more broken tbh, and everyone would run cool AC builds because you don't have to care about ammo.

Sure bring the gauss into pubic queue, there ammo is hardly a matter because you only have a few mechs and rather small maps. But from CW point of view, gauss is not a good choice for pilots that expect to live a bit longer.

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

clan players will complain about anything. The whining has been nonstop since pgi announced their plans for clans in CB. 20% slower is better than dead. The clan XL *IS* the same option as IS STD engines with all the advantages and none of the penalties. Have some pride. Stop lieing to get your baked in crutch.

leae go home you are drunk, clan XL is not IS STD.
iS STD makes you survive bth ST loss, clan XL does NOT.

when people write something like this I wonder what game thy play. Do you build your emchs with this logic in mind? No wonder when IS sucks compared to clanners LOL.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 17 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

The thought of Clan OMNIMECHs being able to change their engine from XL to standard to avoid a 20% speed penalty for torso destruction, got me thinking and I decided to run the numbers.

35 ton Adder - 210 Engine, top speed 97.2 khp
Same weight Standard Engine is rated 155, with a top speed of 71.7 kph
This a 26% top speed decrease, I guess losing a torso and 20% speed is looking pretty good right now.

55 ton Stormcrow – 330 Engine, top speed 97.2 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated 260, with a top speed of 76.6 kph
21% top speed decrease, so it is only slightly worse than running around without a torso, except for the entire match.

75 ton Timberwolf – 275 Engine, top speed 81.0 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated at 300 (with a spare half ton), top speed 64.8 kph
20% decrease in top speed. Dead even, finally you are just as capable running a standard engine all match as you are the final seconds of your pitiful existence after losing a torso.

100 ton Direwolf – 300 Engine, top speed 48.6 kph
Same weight Standard Engine is rated at 210, top speed 34.8 KPH
And the added benefit of losing 12 critical slots to accommodate those extra External DHS
I could actually see this going standard 300, sacrifice 9.5 tons of pod space, just to free up those 2 crit slots in the side torso.

Of course they could be required to keep the same Engine size which means losing pod space
Adder: - 4.5 tons
Stormcrow: -12.5 tons
Timberwolf: -19.5 tons
Direwolf: -9.5 tons

you really consider 71kph as a decent speed in a light mech? WOW thats an isntant kill for any pilot having somewhat aim.

if you guys really want to make it "fair" by balance then you would also have to open up the clan customisation rules:

switchable different engine sizes and types, ES/FF. no fixed equipment. Then it would be fair to give the clan XL's thta penalty, because then a clanplayer can choose if he wants to use them. But a slow speed clanlights now even punished with speed penatly, thats nonsense. He woudl either go STD or he would either go to a big XL.


some IS palyers should probably try it out going 106kph in their lights and come again tellling how works. When you don't have hitreg cheating speeds. Most clan pilots have a comparison ebtween IS and Clan, because we had to play IS before clans were available.

Hillslam, on 17 March 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Please. Get a clue yourself. There are as many trash IS mechs as clan ones. More.
You posted a pile of wrong assumptions about what I want, own, drive and play in.
I want a fair game. These whining betches, yourself included, don't. They/you want an advantage. Just say it. Own it.

You actually do have no clue. If you want a fair game, you would know this change is not making it more fair, its just screwing over balance once more.
Fair means balancing bad mechs by buffs and nerfing too good ones. but a blanked change over a wide section of mechs will never create something more fair. this is illusive.

it's not fair to go 150kph even if you cna die bs ST loss, while the other gets only 106 kph and a STloss-safe Engine.

Eider, on 17 March 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Thunderbolt says.. ahahahahaha. Come on these changes arent insane, fact that my timberwolf can outrace many lights is kinda an issue.

Tell me which IS lights can it outrun? none that is build somehwhat decent.

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

There are like 6 good IS mechs. 8 if you count very We'd be idiots not to. It's still utterly superior to dying when ST is blown out. Here is the difference between Clan and IS XLs -

you would really go 106kph instead of 150 in your FS9 for not being a ST death? RLY? good times coming if so, easy light food on the field.

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

You know the 6 LL Stalker has never run an XL engine, ever...

well and thats the IS palyers trying to "balance" the game, they aren't even able to properly use their given mechs, yet they want to decide what is fair and balanced on mechs they don't even use.

this is ridiculous and hurting balance so much and they don't even recognize it.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 March 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

The Penalty for engine hits is increased heat not less speed. You are not hitting the engine you are damaging reactor shielding. Physics of teh Universe you are playing in.

soon its also speed.

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

So, wait a second - are we saying that with quirks a Hunchback, at 50 tons, is a better mech than the Kit Fox at 35 tons? So... like 15 tons better? Are we saying a Hunchback with quirks is almost equal to a Stormcrow, which is only 5 tons heavier? Oh, wait. No. No, not at all. If a Hunchie isn't overall better than a Kit Fox at fighting (not account for ECM and 3xAMS, superior Clan BAP, etc) then it's totally broken. Currently it's only mostly broken. The engine nerfs will help balance that out considerably.

a hunchback cna easily take on a KFX, or adder.

But can a Nova do this with a FS9.

it is funny how comparisons not supporting your opinion are invalid, but once you can make a unequal comparison that fits your opnion they are fine.

you long left the path of objectivity.

I doubt we ever get crosstech, but if, oh wow, I wonder how it would look like if the clanners would own the IS with IS mechs, LOL. Thats would be amazing to see.

[Mycrus]

Only tearz from the original pee pee cee nurfs tasted sweeter.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

soon its also speed.

IF and only IF they add Heat penalties to the heat scale. There hasn't been penalties yet but they'd be nice.

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 March 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

Really the current nerf is so small when you think about it. It basically equates to losing speed tweak.

In any case, sure we could add the heat spike, BUT we would have to add heat penalties for IS mechs too I suppose. It would probably be equal to losing the heat containment base quirk in an IS since it can't lose an engine location without going *pop".

Maybe if this more widespread nerf hit, the Clanners wouldn't be losing their minds right now.

Its just the wrong penalty for engine damage.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 March 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

IF and only IF they add Heat penalties to the heat scale. There hasn't been penalties yet but they'd be nice.

Then this will still require buffs.

because the original penalties applied to mechs with not artificial increased heat for weapons, and without 1.4 dubs.

Sure on a TBR 24DHS this heat penalty would be totally ok, a penalty, nothing too bad.

But on the clanlights that only have their 8 internals + the way too hot clanweapons? That would be overkill and just doom these chassis even more to be obsolete.

as long as the clan construction rules are so tight, the difference between one clanmech and the other will stay HUGE, and blanked buffs/nerf will always make the strong ones muchs tronger than the bad ones. And such enrfs will hurt the bad ons way harder than the good ones.

The ML heat change? hardly changed the TBR or DWF or SCR, but adder and Nova got hit really hard by it.

These kind of changes will never bring any good because mechs on clansidder differ a lot more by the construction rules than the IS side where construction rules are very open.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 March 2015 - 03:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

Then this will still require buffs.

because the original penalties applied to mechs with not artificial increased heat for weapons, and without 1.4 dubs.

Sure on a TBR 24DHS this heat penalty would be totally ok, a penalty, nothing too bad.

But on the clanlights that only have their 8 internals + the way too hot clan weapons? That would be overkill and just doom these chassis even more to be obsolete.

as long as the clan construction rules are so tight, the difference between one clanmech and the other will stay HUGE, and blanked buffs/nerf will always make the strong ones muchs tronger than the bad ones. And such enrfs will hurt the bad ons way harder than the good ones.

The ML heat change? hardly changed the TBR or DWF or SCR, but adder and Nova got hit really hard by it.

These kind of changes will never bring any good because mechs on clansidder differ a lot more by the construction rules than the IS side where construction rules are very open.

The first ten should have the full strength not just the ones in the engine. To much heat is meant to doom a Mech. PGI really hasn't gotten this right.

[990Dreams]

You have a choice to use or not to use Clans. If you chose to use them, you get the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Mayestro]

I think the problem here is that the arguments are always made with the top mechs of each side, while it is ignored that on both side most of the mechs are just weak in comparison to the top mechs of whichever side.
This is where the creation of Quirks started to give the weaker mechs the ability to compete with the top mechs and not to give both sides top mechs wich can compete with each other (sry if it is hard to understand due to my crappy english O_o). So the scale for balance shouldn't be IS vs. Clan, but tier5 mechs vs tier1 mechs.
But back to topic i think the clan should get a heat and/or movement speed penalty for losing a part of their engine, because it doesn't makes sense that they don't lose some part of their functionality. Still the penalty should be percentage wise in accordance to the engine like 10% movement speed and 20%reduced heat dissipation that is produced by the engine(that means all the heatsinsk that are in the engine). Btw. these numbers are just for example.
Following this weak clan mechs should get some nice quirks to make them viable and compensate for the nerf, like speed quirks for the clan lights.

So i hope that i was able to add another angle of view to this topic and would like to apologize for my poor english (grammer and spelling wise) and for the wall of text .

Edited by Mayestro, 18 March 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[nehebkau]

DONTOR, on 17 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Yes but you get the option of a standard engine, and dont have to die from a ST loss. Thats your choice. If I could standard engine my DW after these changes than I would.

So what 10 tons worth of weapons are you going to drop for your shiny new Standard Engine? That's what everyone who is extolling the virtues of the standard engine are forgetting.... Standard engines means lower alphas, less ammo, fewer weapons.