264 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lily, the fact that you actually think we have weapon balance right now with the hitreg as it is, nothing more needs be said. Corrupt data cannot give you good results, we've seen that with EVERY single balance change to date, and the meta changes almost every 2 weeks at times because of this. You call THAT balanced? We are obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, probably not on many things.

I do appreciate your passion for the game, I respect that, sometimes we do agree on things, this isn't going to be one of them.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

How about this - IS and Clans get the same engine system. Same crit spaces, same impact, same flexibility. Whatever it is. I'd be absolutely content with that. If you want to unlock FF/Endo you have to give up the 1/2 size perk. Then we balance Clan weapons against IS weapons and otherwise mech customization is identical for performance of engines, JJs, BAP, TAG, ,ECM, NARC, etc. Clan weapons would need their weight increased to match IS weapon weight and crit space since the current Clan weight/size balance is based on them having more limited customization.

Make Clan mechs function like IS mechs, save their weapons are higher heat, longer duration in return for more damage and/or more range.

That would make the TW and Scrow nice but not exceptional and would bring IS and Clan mechs into balance.

Which isn't what people want. They want the Clan mechs to have an advantage. Not dying with a ST loss like IS mechs do is a huge, massive, incredible advantage. Only having a speed/heat nerf (so that you function like a std engine and not XL is essentially what it does) is still a big advantage, just less so.

Mischief, it is a blanket nerf that unfairly impacts a crippled mech. We cannot choose engines, and PGI would never allow it either.

If clan xl engines can be crit, when can I crit a IS XL without having to destroy side torso to impose same penalty? When can I crit IS STD engines for similar penalty?

Fair is fair. This is not.

Show me a case where this changes balance among mechs that are fighting in tact, and you win. Otherwise, this is a crappy band aid that kicks crippled mechs when they are down. This is not balance, it is exploiting a scenario where a mech is already nearly dead. You know this, as do I. It will not change the IS XL destruction penalty, it will not change anything about the current balance that is out of whack. There needs to be more pub queue testing to show what the tons of nerfs since last test have done. Are you happy with using 8-9 month old results as a factor to balance against knowing the game was patched 17 times since the last test?

I know I am not, be objective and stop frothing at the mouth like the other rabid dogs.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 March 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[Burktross]

Rouken, on 18 March 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

I'm against it only because of this. It is such a good deal, that nobody will believe it is enough and we'll get another nerf to go with it.

Though I disagree with the nerf, I am obligated to direct you to this.

[WazOfOz]

I think these proposed changes would be fine if it also effects IS mechs. ie even standard engines can be critted = loss of speed & or cooling ability, lose a side torso lose all gyro's & heat sinks on that side = loss of speed & cooling etc etc.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Burktross, on 18 March 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Though I disagree with the nerf, I am obligated to direct you to this.

It is close, but that is not the correct fallacy. Is there one for "A will happen whether or not B happens"? Because that is the one I would be guilty of.

Just like the loss of cooling efficiency was not enough, neither will a decrease in max speed be enough.

[Zoid]

Gyrok, on 18 March 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Mischief, it is a blanket nerf that unfairly impacts a crippled mech. We cannot choose engines, and PGI would never allow it either.

If you could choose a standard engine, you'd get about a 20% speed reduction for the same weight. So your engines are basically just downgraded to standard if you lose a ST. I do not see how this is unfair.

[Burktross]

Rouken, on 18 March 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

It is close, but that is not the correct fallacy. Is there one for "A will happen whether or not B happens"? Because that is the one I would be guilty of.

Just like the loss of cooling efficiency was not enough, neither will a decrease in max speed be enough.

Here's the link for all of them. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

[Tasker]

Clan XL nerf is great idea.

Also, here is another great idea: make Resistance mechs not garbage.

Cheers.

[WazOfOz]

Ozealot. I agree, I can't see it being implemented either.... however standard engine takes up 6 slots lose 1-2 reduce speed & cooling, lose 3 die. theres also 4 slots taken up by gyro in centre if it takes damage start reducing speed. your math may be better than mine but I can count to 6. I have bitchin' Betty yelling at me often about crit. damage with no apparent loss of functionality it seems to me the crit. is not destroying a entire component but only 1 of the crit. slots the component occupies. just my thoughts.

Edited by WazOfOz, 18 March 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Lily from animove]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

How about this - IS and Clans get the same engine system. Same crit spaces, same impact, same flexibility. Whatever it is. I'd be absolutely content with that. If you want to unlock FF/Endo you have to give up the 1/2 size perk. Then we balance Clan weapons against IS weapons and otherwise mech customization is identical for performance of engines, JJs, BAP, TAG, ,ECM, NARC, etc. Clan weapons would need their weight increased to match IS weapon weight and crit space since the current Clan weight/size balance is based on them having more limited customization.

Make Clan mechs function like IS mechs, save their weapons are higher heat, longer duration in return for more damage and/or more range.

That would make the TW and Scrow nice but not exceptional and would bring IS and Clan mechs into balance.

Which isn't what people want. They want the Clan mechs to have an advantage. Not dying with a ST loss like IS mechs do is a huge, massive, incredible advantage. Only having a speed/heat nerf (so that you function like a std engine and not XL is essentially what it does) is still a big advantage, just less so.

I would totally be fine with this, tbh we should be able to totally!!! freely customise all our mechs. Engines, FF/ES ets. Clanstuff, like clan ES/FF would then just be much much much more expensive than IS ES/FF because of the lower crits it needs.

If on top critpadding would exists and ES/FF slots could buffer crits, there would even be a reason to use IS ES/FF in a mech that is full by tonnage but has slots free. Because less open slots filled by ES/FF means your components will less likely to be critted.

Then everyone cna choose STD, IS XL, Clan XL, also all sides cna choose the wepaons if IS or Clan. and when clanners can also adjust engine sizes, the only difference then would be the mechs hardpoints and the geometry.
Would balance a lot things, and still some mechs would need help and some not. but the debate would be a lot less about clan or IS. Surely some low hardpoint mechs which both sides do have, may need some quirks. But the clan or IS discussion which always was nonsense since the beginning would stop.

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Lily, the fact that you actually think we have weapon balance right now with the hitreg as it is, nothing more needs be said. Corrupt data cannot give you good results, we've seen that with EVERY single balance change to date, and the meta changes almost every 2 weeks at times because of this. You call THAT balanced? We are obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, probably not on many things.

I do appreciate your passion for the game, I respect that, sometimes we do agree on things, this isn't going to be one of them.

you don't understand lagic do you? if hitreg would be perfect, your data will still be corrupt because you are not able to take stupid builds and bad piloting into account. Your base logic is flawed, you can only "balance" as much as your corrupt data allow. But this will make some "balance changes" be wrong and only a few right. if hitreg is bad across the baord, you cna actually balnce with this feature. And it was done n the past with srms and lrms. But if you generally touch mechs, which at this point are totally different, and give them the the same nerf, this is going to imbalnce stuff. Because those mechs use different weapons, and loadouts and have different characteristics. and so this change will totally differently affect them.

So why do all clanners by data get a nerf when actually only 4chassis are used in CW that provided this data? That is even free of possible hitreg corrupted data. Thats just a basic logic flaw.

[Gyrok]

Zoid, on 18 March 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

If you could choose a standard engine, you'd get about a 20% speed reduction for the same weight. So your engines are basically just downgraded to standard if you lose a ST. I do not see how this is unfair.

Because we cannot choose an engine at all...and cannot choose endo/ferro at all, and cannot remove hardwired JJs or in some cases, flamers and active probes and other nonsensical things.

So, what you are saying is this:

Even though these tech trees are less than 5% difference in performance at this point, we need to make Tech tree A 20% easier to kill than tech tree B, because the mob thinks it needs to be inferior to tech tree B so that pugs can kill organized units in CW with flamers, mgs, and lrms all the while not using comms and running in piecemeal to a firing squad.

Tasker, on 18 March 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Clan XL nerf is great idea.

Also, here is another great idea: make Resistance mechs not garbage.

Cheers.

The grasshopper already has DW level ST armor...what else did you want in your pre-quirked quirks?

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

Because we cannot choose an engine at all...and cannot choose endo/ferro at all, and cannot remove hardwired JJs or in some cases, flamers and active probes and other nonsensical things.

Would you stop with this short minded nonsense when they give you what you want?
Summoner - capable of swaping JJs, mounting FF/ES, removing internal 4 HS, switching reactor....and have the omni pod ability?
or wait make everything free - i really want to have that AC 20 on the right arm of my Zeus and the double PPC on the left

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 March 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Gyrok]

Karl Streiger, on 19 March 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Would you stop with this short minded nonsense when they give you what you want?
Summoner - capable of swaping JJs, mounting FF/ES, removing internal 4 HS, switching reactor....and have the omni pod ability?
or wait make everything free - i really want to have that AC 20 on the right arm of my Zeus and the double PPC on the left

They will never unlock omnimech internals...I think that would be OP...and I am pretty pragmatic about all this...

[Adamski]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

They will never unlock omnimech internals...I think that would be OP...and I am pretty pragmatic about all this...

They really need to, its the only way to balance the lottery winners(Timerwolf) with the lottery losers(Summoner). Even if they unlocked everything EXCEPT the engine, it would go a LONG way to giving the Clans a baseline power level to balance from.

[EvilCow]

My toys are fine, don't touch them, I want their toys too.

This could summarize most of this thread.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

They will never unlock omnimech internals...I think that would be OP...and I am pretty pragmatic about all this...

Why?
The best and most efficient classes - 55 and 75t already got the "full" internals
We could argue that the TimberWolf with reduced internal heat sinks could become more dangerous (Dual Gauss) - and a "free" engine setting will result in power creep....dual ERPPC dual Gauss hopping TimberWolfs.

But it will not change that the Summoner will stay a wimp

So any change that effect all clan Mechs will always favour the TWolf and the Crow better as any other Mech.
To kill there advantage you have to be specific - for example bring the ST Loose Nerf first for TimberWolf and Stormcrow only

[Kristov Kerensky]

And that's why we won't agree Lily, I know that corrupt data can't be used like this, you don't realize how it's wrong and think it's ok.

Gryok, engine crits would be great across the board, IS and Clan, STD or XL or LFE engines, even IC engines if they ever add those(and fuel tank hits!). We WERE told it would be put in eventually, so why is this such a shock?

And no, OmniMechs shouldn't be allowed to change things that they aren't allowed to change because you want it. IS OmniMechs have the exact same restrictions on them, you know that? When we DO get them, we'll have the same issues with locked engines, ES/FF, hardwired JJ and other equipment. All of the same restrictions, only we'll be stuck with IS toys, so less pod space being used by larger and heavier weapons. Omni rules apply to both factions, it's not a Clan specific thing.

Eventually, sooner rather than later I hope, we should see the release of Clan BattleMechs, who follow the same construction rules as the Inner Sphere, only with Clan toys that take up less space and weigh less. THAT will be something that PGI will have holy hells getting balanced, engine crits is a good start to that. They can start with not inflating the hardpoints, that'll go a long way to keeping them more in balance with IS Mechs while still giving them their advantage of the better tech.

Keep in mind folks, this isn't a finished game, this product is still in beta testing in reality. We've got core features that aren't in yet like collisions and a working critical hit system. CW is still in alpha testing. Balance hasn't been achieved and probably never will be, we've got more Clan and IS Mechs that should exist currently, hell we've only got 13 Clan Mechs for the Clan Faction to pick from compared to how many for the IS? There will be a lot more changes in the future, especially once they get the HSR and hitreg working at 90% or better, going to see a LOT of weapons and quirks getting redone when that happens. What are all the Lights going to do when collisions work again? Who'll be afraid of the Firestarter when it's constantly on it's ass because they keep running into things like they do NOW?

You should all keep this in mind all the time, this game is NOT finished, it's still a beta product, it's got a LOT of changes to go through still before it's done. At least now PGI is doing little changes instead of their old extreme swings either direction bs, not even sure why they keep doing it when they know the data is useless, but hey, someone has to justify their paycheck right?

[KraftySOT]

Gundams.

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 19 March 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

And that's why we won't agree Lily, I know that corrupt data can't be used like this, you don't realize how it's wrong and think it's ok.

In any online game you will never have clean data, so best is to never change anything because any data are anywys incorrect? LOL your logic again makes no sense.

balance is a constant process because the situation constantly changes. Both will stay constant even with corrupted data sicne non corrupted data will enver appear. The only thing you can do is cleaning corrupted data by known issues. We should probably forbid the TBR and SCR for like 2 month and see how clan win chances then look like.

or best never change anythign because you say data are corrupt.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

Because we cannot choose an engine at all...and cannot choose endo/ferro at all, and cannot remove hardwired JJs or in some cases, flamers and active probes and other nonsensical things.

So, what you are saying is this:

Even though these tech trees are less than 5% difference in performance at this point, we need to make Tech tree A 20% easier to kill than tech tree B, because the mob thinks it needs to be inferior to tech tree B so that pugs can kill organized units in CW with flamers, mgs, and lrms all the while not using comms and running in piecemeal to a firing squad.



The grasshopper already has DW level ST armor...what else did you want in your pre-quirked quirks?

Flat out not true. While the weapons in the tech tree are close to balanced one tree gets a 20% speed boost or 50% engine tonnage reduction for free, the other does not.

So you get all the perks of an xl but instead of death with an st loss you just perform like you had a std engine. Give me the same benefit for is and I'd jump all over it. You don't have a comparable situation with is mechs - because they either have 10+tons less weapons or 20-30% speed *from the start of the match*, or they died to st loss. The current cxl setup is like having a huge armor boost for clans. This at least moves them toward parity.