146 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Lynx7725, on 19 March 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

My job is to help the team win games.

Then why dont you roll on over to Metamechs.com, and pick something you like, thats not a lurm boat. Because youre not helping anyone, with LRMs. Youre wasting space that could have been a Firestarter, or a Wubshee, or a Jagerbomb, or a Timberwolf.

[Madcap72]

KraftySOT, on 19 March 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Then why dont you roll on over to Metamechs.com, and pick something you like, thats not a lurm boat. Because youre not helping anyone, with LRMs. Youre wasting space that could have been a Firestarter, or a Wubshee, or a Jagerbomb, or a Timberwolf.

Or run LRMS and smash meta players when they drop in pug games because they are set up for games that don't have LRMS.

[Madcap72]

The fun thing about LRM's, is that they are a very versitile weapon. From just tagging enemies with a LRM5 to get the kill assist, to giant LRMaggedon boats, to stuff like what I do where I surgically dismantle people with LRM5's.

I for one think that given the gameplay and player base, LRMS have the ability to be VERY powerful. For instance, I play in a group where a few of us are Infantry veterans. So we utalize fire and manouver, forward observation and targeting, basic tactics like flanking, fix by fire, fire and manouver and such. The results are hilarious because the brianwashed masses don't know what to do or how to react. (Except other Vets, or those intersted in actual use of tactics, they always get it).


In my opinion, everyone should be happy that "Lrms suck no one uses them" keeps getting pushed, because if more people used them to thier full pontential especially in a team orentated fasion (not the same as "have lermz plz lock"), the game would be very differnt.

[wanderer]

Quote

Or run LRMS and smash meta players when they drop in pug games because they are set up for games that don't have LRMS.

Except you'll get rhythmically kicked in the robo-jewels anyway. I was in my Thunderbolt-9S the other day on River City. Enemy team had not one, not two, but three LRM boats versus me and an ECM Raven they couldn't hit, running around and through cover at the end. Two Stalkers, one Hunchback.

We ended up sniping them all to death, one at a time, while about four minutes and a thousand rounds of LRM fail-fire rained down on the building I was tucked in behind. I didn't go past light yellow armor damage. And I'm only an average player- but I know how to deal with PUG-level missile boats. Fire, cover, walk to different point of cover to avoid no-longer-guided missiles, repeat.

LRMs rely on the opponent making mistakes. The better the player, the fewer mistakes to capitalize on for a hit. Snapshooting PPCs that hit a 'Mech at 1000m in under a second > LRM boats lobbing missiles that take over six times that post-lock to hit target. None of them were bright enough (or brave enough) to close in and use their medium lasers, so we traded and people ROFLd on teamchat as they whiffed constantly until we'd won, 12-10. The lurmboats had one kill of the ten between them and 3-4 assists each.

You don't "smash" anything when meta-players who know what they're doing are dropping red. You're getting laser vomited to death because they not only outgun you, but they can aim and focus that damage, while you have to sandblast them to death.

But please, continue with the witty, informed commentary. Even someone like me who -loves- LRMs knows that a good player can run circles around a missile boat even without the usual hard counters, and heaven help you if they bring the usual ECM/radar dep to the party.

It's not the LRMs that are winning you games. It's the teamwork, because teamwork is OP.

Edited by wanderer, 19 March 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[COOL HANDS]

Alistair Winter, on 18 March 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

For a tiny moment, missile locks actually required a minimum of aiming skills in order to get a lock. All PGI had to do was to increase projectile speed to compensate for the increased difficulty, and the gameplay would have improved significantly. LRMs would have been challenging to use, but increased projectile speed would have made them more effective against players who know how to use cover!

We were so close!

Now PGI reverted the changes and LRMs are back to where they were. Easy-mode in the underhive and running joke among skilled players.

Oh God not another one of these threads. Easy mode really? A cave man could do it? No no no don't mind me Ill'e see myself out.

[Impyrium]

Gotta love all the replies that fail to get the point of the OP and assume it's another 'LRMs are too OP/easy' thread.

Any addition to LRMs that increase the depth of the firing mechanic would be welcome. And, if you increased the depth (and likely skill) then you have reasoning to increase the capabilities of LRMs. I specifically like the idea of changing fire elevation, or missile speed, whatever. More options to play with in reward for slightly more effort required in firing the weapon.

That way they can stop being such an extreme weapon, in that they're super effective against hapless newer players and often pointless against experienced players and teams.

[Satan n stuff]

stjobe, on 18 March 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Missile spread and flight phases already spread the missiles to the point where very few pilots whose stats I've seen have a hit percentage north of roughly 40-45%, more often it's in the 30-40% range. The system I suggested would achieve the same kind of spread just with a different mechanic - one that allows fire-and-forget (which the current mechanic does not).

Current:
LRM 5 + ARTEMIS 19 8,420 3,925 46.62% 01:40:23 4,380
LRM 15 + ARTEMIS 35 36,904 15,555 42.15% 03:05:34 17,184
C-LRM 5 + ARTEMIS 16 27,157 11,703 43.09% 01:22:05 11,913
C-LRM 15 + ARTEMIS 18 29,192 9,823 33.65% 01:32:43 10,632


Archived:
LRM 20 35 14,390 6,535 45.41% 03:58:14 7,282
LRM 5 36 19,760 9,113 46.12% 04:07:27 10,555
LRM 10 73 21,215 9,420 44.40% 08:00:55 10,542
LRM 15 192 90,255 38,067 42.18% 20:03:36 50,251
LRM 5 + ARTEMIS 13 1,995 946 47.42% 01:11:08 1,048
LRM 15 + ARTEMIS 13 5,370 2,390 44.51% 01:11:03 2,619

Total missiles fired: 254658
Total hits: 107477
That gives me an overall hitrate of 42.20%

[Kjudoon]

TheKillerWolf, on 19 March 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Total Warfare, p. 111: "LRM Indirect Fire"


just gonna leave this here


but on a related note ECM can die in a fire

Die in a fire...

I like that.

But in case you did not know this thread is a "lore is only relevant if it supports what I want
and irrelevant for all else" zone.

For all that have suddenly freaked out that there is growing consensus on making lrms "harder" to use than they already are... this is inseparably tied to a commisserate and equal increase in power, speed and precision. If you don't like the idea of LRMs getting 100% focused FLPPD like ACswhile lobbing over hills, run the other way.

[JaxRiot]

Kjudoon, on 19 March 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Die in a fire...

I like that.

But in case you did not know this thread is a "lore is only relevant if it supports what I want
and irrelevant for all else" zone.

For all that have suddenly freaked out that there is growing consensus on making lrms "harder" to use than they already are... this is inseparably tied to a commisserate and equal increase in power, speed and precision. If you don't like the idea of LRMs getting 100% focused FLPPD like ACswhile lobbing over hills, run the other way.

Meh.. LRMs are already useless in CW. Increasing damage or flight times or increase locking difficutly wont change it in the slightest

How much worse could it get?

[Kilo 40]

KraftySOT, on 19 March 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Then why dont you roll on over to Metamechs.com, and pick something you like, thats not a lurm boat. Because youre not helping anyone, with LRMs. Youre wasting space that could have been a Firestarter, or a Wubshee, or a Jagerbomb, or a Timberwolf.

that kind of thinking is why the game is in the state it's in.

[wanderer]

Kilo 40, on 19 March 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

that kind of thinking is why the game is in the state it's in.

It's realistic, though. Naturally, a game that rewards killing your opponent before they kill you rewards use of weapons that deliver quick, focused damage to vital points. LRMs deliver tremendously inefficient damage by direct-fire standards: small amounts, spread uncontrollably across targets, and while such damage tracks an evasive target when locked on, locks are rather easy to defeat or deny or fool into hitting cover instead of target. LRMs are situational, and there are more than enough exceptions to those situations to render them incapable of being first-tier weapons as it stands.

You can do things with LRMs,but generally, you can do them BETTER with something else. And that's why the game is in the state it's in.

[Lynx7725]

KraftySOT, on 19 March 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Then why dont you roll on over to Metamechs.com, and pick something you like, thats not a lurm boat. Because youre not helping anyone, with LRMs. Youre wasting space that could have been a Firestarter, or a Wubshee, or a Jagerbomb, or a Timberwolf.

Heh. It so happens that, one, I'm currently running a medium LRM boat, so you missed with all your meta choices, and two, I was running a D/F build the last few nights. Nothing too meta, just to get refresher training in D/F and grind some mechs. No, I didn't do that well.

And guess what? I realised something: in PUGalandia, it doesn't really matter how hot or how sod you are behind the crosshairs. LRMs, D/F, whatever... that's not the important thing. Neither is meta or non-meta build, within reasons. End of day, the team with the better teamwork wins. And because PUGalandia is so lacking in teamwork (coincidence work is a better term for it), and that PGI has balanced the D/F mechanics such that TTK for a one-to-one under practical conditions can be so long, the PUG team with more game-enabled teamwork has better odds. Be it teamwork via target sharing and subsequent massed LRM fire, or teamwork via huddling under an ECM umbrella, or actual coincidental teamwork as people accidentally focus fire.

And that's why LRMs usually don't work that well in group queue or against more veteran players. The group queue by definition has better team coordination, and the vets know how to work together. Teamwork is OP.

LRM haters still don't understand, a properly functional LRM team is taking advantage of in-game teamwork mechanics to outnumber and concentrate fire on them individually. Trying to face a team-based weapon with individual bravado is a recipe for in-game death. Just like trying to face down two or more enemy mechs in direct fire by going Gunslinger -- the odds are never good for the solo.

And I guess that's part of what irks me; I'm playing the game to the extent I understand it is meant to be played, and utilizing -- not even exploiting -- the mechanics the developers have provided to aid in teamwork, and people on the other end who never bothered to understand teamwork and the mechanics are calling for nerfs. To those I say, skill up first, then talk.

[Lynx7725]

wanderer, on 19 March 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

You can do things with LRMs,but generally, you can do them BETTER with something else. And that's why the game is in the state it's in.

To be honest? I'd challenge that to a degree. LRM boats are inefficient, I agree, but having just went back to D/F school to keep in touch, I'm finding D/F to be awfully inefficient nowadays too. Mostly to do with the TTK issue, and damage spread. Even in D/F, you need teamwork to quickly down an enemy. Skill levels will lower this time and require less helpers, but there's a limit to it.

It's only really when you get into far meta country that this breaks. Gauss/ CERPPC Daishis, "exploiting" Firestarters -- maybe. Fighting in D/F really does need teamwork for which there is a sad lack of in-game mechanics to help more obviously. If and when PGI actually provides some value-addition for D/F teamwork, LRM indirect fire may take a back seat.

[Kjudoon]

JaxRiot, on 19 March 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

Meh.. LRMs are already useless in CW. Increasing damage or flight times or increase locking difficutly wont change it in the slightest

How much worse could it get?

You really must be new here. The LRMfauxpocalypse about 6 months ago was hillarious in how crazy the LRMhatorz QQ howled. All for having the speed increase to 185m/s. IIRC. This was also when narcs got buff to not fall off from the first salvo AND cancel ecm.

Didn't last a week. Also didn't help it was a competition weekend with a new trial stalker LRM build so every new player tried it out. But it killed russ too easy. The twitter choir screamed bloody murder. My first trip out in the Pain Train was my first 5 kill match.

It was glorious. But we can't have effective LRMs because it makes the underhive and the L337s cry. So the nerfhammer fell and we got knocked back down to almost obscurity at 165 which was touted as progress because it was faster than 150.

LRMs are artificially bad due to the ocean of tears the instant they start being made relevant.

[Kjudoon]

Quickest way to fix lrms sub par performance and instagimp is fix convergence.

End DF precision superiority or give it to LRMs as well... problem solved instantly when you think about it. Why does DF kill quicker? Convergence allowing the precision direction of all that damage to one spot. Ending it balances all the weapon systems with LRMs.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

Kjudoon, on 19 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

Quickest way to fix lrms sub par performance and instagimp is fix convergence.

End DF precision superiority or give it to LRMs as well... problem solved instantly when you think about it. Why does DF kill quicker? Convergence allowing the precision direction of all that damage to one spot. Ending it balances all the weapon systems with LRMs.

as much as i like this idea it doesnt change alot of the problems that plauge lrms. they are worthless without dedicated support such as narc and tag when used vs ppl with skill(ECM) and become the end all be all at low levels as plebstars cant aim to save lives. But dont get me wrong i think we need somthing to break up this pinpoint bullshit.

Edited by TheKillerWolf, 19 March 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Kjudoon, on 19 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

Quickest way to fix lrms sub par performance and instagimp is fix convergence.

End DF precision superiority or give it to LRMs as well... problem solved instantly when you think about it. Why does DF kill quicker? Convergence allowing the precision direction of all that damage to one spot. Ending it balances all the weapon systems with LRMs.

Just tossing things out...

Here's an idea. Instead of 11 separate hitboxes, we just have 4: Front, Back, Left and Right. Weapons fire hit, and then the system randomizes according to the TT Hit Location tables.

That puts all weapons on the same crap shoot. Pinpoint Convergences go out the window, although technically convergence is still an issue. The down side? You aim at the cockpit and hit the leg. You go WTF.

It's a possibility... but one that would likely get a lot of people in an uproar, and I personally think it goes against a specific design philosophy that the PGI team has.

I'm not 100% sure now that a technical solution in the weapons framework will solve this particular issue. Perhaps it's time to take a step back and see if the problem can be approached from another angle.

[Kjudoon]

If you can't remove convergence from DF, give it to lrms for strength and length of lock. You keep lock the whole time, for instance shrink the spread to near pinpoint grade.

Again, problem is solved... though not quite the way some people want.

[Madcap72]

wanderer, on 19 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Except you'll get rhythmically kicked in the robo-jewels anyway.

Snipfor brevity


It's not the LRMs that are winning you games. It's the teamwork, because teamwork is OP.

Don't really have that problem. Plus, as I mentioned LRMs with teamwork are very effective. It's why I constantly get 200K+, 90+ gamescore matches in my "pointless" catapult, even though I'm at the point where I drop with a top of the top players in pug matches. Once actual teamowrk is involved I do way better, as do team mates.

But I guess that's the crux of the matter, everyone has a differnt perspective from the level they play at, and the style they play in.

[wanderer]

I've always said that LRMs would benefit from a slower fire rate, a bit more velocity, and higher damage per missile. 25% slower (meaning an IS LRM 5 starts at about 4 seconds from fire to reload) fire rate, tweaking the velocity back to a base 175, and damage back to 1.2 per missile. And let LRMs lock on targets without a red dorito- you hold the crosshairs on target with LOS, it'll start lock-on regardless of ECM. If you can't get direct lock, it'll lock slower on a red square only.