106 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

I just returned from a bit of an absense due to technical difficulties, was looking at some of the nifty new mechs available and thinking of diving into them but after awhile of playing it just feels draining. I enjoy playing, have since early closed beta, but it feels like the grind to something new is so large I'm not sure I have the desire to do it. I had the thought of picking up a KGC to try out a ballistic build, only need 4 mllion for that so thats not so bad.. but no thats not really true is it. It's not four million for that KGC, it's actually more like 23 million + upgrades and parts thanks to the levelings system. a single unmastered KGC is likely to feel slow, sluggish and unlikely to give me a good impression of whether it's even enjoyable since it's not actually performing up to snuff yet.

Well those depressing thoughts in my head I decided eh maybe I'll try something a little more unorthodox: pick up an ice ferret, I've seen people saying it's somewhat mediocre since introduction but I think I might enjoy it.. then I notice this medium is actually even more expensive than a Kingcrab, 30+ million investment before I have a true handle on whether I've wasted my money.

This just seems silly to me. I know the thought is supposedly grind = longer play time = more microtransaction profit (though I protest the notion that 20+ bucks per mech is a "micro" anything) but it's the opposite for me. I enjoy the mechs I own, I have over a dozen (not sure of the exact number), but I've also played them all for so long that I don't really want to spend another month+ in them just to get a chance to try something new that I might not even like. I've invested hundreds of hours in MWO over the years, I don't need a progression treadmill to keep me here, in fact its the treadmill that is kind of sapping my desire to play at all.

Relatedly, the leveling mechaninc (which I've always only barely tolerated) is really becoming more and more distasteful for me. I love the Timberwolf, not because of it's supposed bandwagon OPness but because I like many others simply have nostalgic feelings for that design, yet by the time I was starting my third TBW I was almost sick of running it. It'd be one thing of the skill unlocks were marginal, but you pretty much have to elite any mech before you know what it actually runs like.

Eh. I honestly really wish MWO hadn't been a free to play game. I know it probably could not have been financially successful as buy to play title, but if it could of been there would be no need for the exciessive amount of grind that permeates the core experience. The game to me would be better if a couple days of play were enough to buy the most expensive mechs. Grinding to buy isn't why I play, it's tinkering with designes after i buy them and trying new things I like. this massive brick wall between me and experimention really bums me out.

[norus]

You have to actually fully go through the builds before you comment on price between IS and Clan. The KC may look cheaper but by the time you've got it upgraded (engine, weapons, FF, DHS) it IS more expensive, unless you plan to waddle at 48kps and I know that's a big daishi complaint of too slow. The clan pricing is just deceptive since it already includes everything - all you can change is omnipods (pretty cheap) and weapons. If you took the price of an IS medium with XL engine of the same weight as the ferret you'll see the pricing is almost bang on between IS and clan.

[MoonUnitBeta]

norus, on 22 March 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

You have to actually fully go through the builds before you comment on price between IS and Clan. The KC may look cheaper but by the time you've got it upgraded (engine, weapons, FF, DHS) it IS more expensive, unless you plan to waddle at 48kps and I know that's a big daishi complaint of too slow. The clan pricing is just deceptive since it already includes everything - all you can change is omnipods (pretty cheap) and weapons. If you took the price of an IS medium with XL engine of the same weight as the ferret you'll see the pricing is almost bang on between IS and clan.

This is a good summary.

[Quxudica]

norus, on 22 March 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

You have to actually fully go through the builds before you comment on price between IS and Clan. The KC may look cheaper but by the time you've got it upgraded (engine, weapons, FF, DHS) it IS more expensive, unless you plan to waddle at 48kps and I know that's a big daishi complaint of too slow. The clan pricing is just deceptive since it already includes everything - all you can change is omnipods (pretty cheap) and weapons. If you took the price of an IS medium with XL engine of the same weight as the ferret you'll see the pricing is almost bang on between IS and clan.

That may be true, but it's more or less irrelevant as far as my point goes. It's not especially important if the KGC is ultimately more expensive in the end when both are, to me at least, prohibitively expensive either way. It's so much playtime invested into obtaining either of them that it just feels like a barrier, but unlike the probably intention of that design - it doesn't make me want to pay money for them either since A: I have no idea if I'd like them, and B: I find the idea of a single mech costing the same as entire indie games or expansions for major games to be somewhat insane.

[Johnny Z]

Mech prices are dirt cheap considering.


Clan mechs being more expensive is because they are fully outfitted with extremely over powered weapons and equipment. You cant really go wrong with any Clan mech regardless what some less than average pilots say.

Consider Clan mechs as "Easy Mode" that "Cost More" defining "Pay To Win" catering mainly to the "Man Baby".

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 March 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[Spheroid]

If you have been here since open beta and only have a dozen mechs you clearly are not playing enough.

I am up 25 mill again after paying full c-bill cost for three Hellbringers not that long ago.


Crabs don't even need DHS, you can run gauss or quad AC-5 no problem. Is this a sympathy thread?

Edited by Spheroid, 22 March 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[FupDup]

Paulconomy strikes again.

[Rakshasa]

Johnny Z, on 22 March 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

Clan mechs being more expensive is because they are fully outfitted with extremely over powered weapons and equipment. You cant really go wrong with any Clan mech regardless what some less than average pilots say.

Consider Clan mechs as "Easy Mode" that "Cost More" defining "Pay To Win" catering mainly to the "Man Baby".

Well, they would be if there wasn't an ongoing effort to balance IS and Clan mechs against each other. Taken from a whole experience perspective you'd think that if both sides 'Mechs perform similarly then their prices would be similar too. Alas!

Also, what's with the Man Baby dig? People like Clan mechs, no reason to insult them

Edited by Rakshasa, 22 March 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[Pezzer]

Okay, so you think the mech prices seem to be a bit high? Well, I'll leave it to the forumwarriors to prove you wrong with actual comparisons and stat charts, but on average 1 hour in this game is equal to 3+ hours of grinding in other free-to-play games, and the grind is only about 33%-50% longer than it would've been if we assumed that MWO had gone pay-to-play. That's because all current-generation games include a ranking system of sorts, and C-Bills along with pilot experience trees would've always been a part of the game experience. The only difference would've been twice the maps but 1/2 to 1/4 of the mechs.
I think we got the better end of the stick.

But at any rate, on to your points. You can earn the C-Bills to buy almost any mech in the game with only a few days of play, with upgrades. But guess what? Yep. This game has servers to run and people to pay, so you have to buy premium to get that kind of reward in the period of time you desire. It's only 15 bucks a month and you get free premium time when you buy pre-order packs, so keep that in mind.

If you want to play this game for free then you are going to have to pay with a few extra measly days of grinding to get more oh shiny. It really isn't that bad, if you're a weekend warrior and don't have any plans you can play for ~6-8 hours on saturday and sunday, making enough C-Bills to buy and outfit a KGC with everything but the engine (which you can buy one of and then switch between the three). As a weekend warrior free player, you have to make some concessions. In this case the concessions are time and grind.

Let me reiterate that this game may have a longer grind than previous MechWarrior games, but that's arguably more realistic if you're a lore buff. We are the average MechWarrior making a decent sum per engagement, with each battle resulting in just enough C-Bills to save up for retirement (or in this case a new Mech) after fees.
If you don't like grinding and don't care about lore too much, then yes the time it takes to unlock the next chasis is going to be somewhat of a turn-off. But generally the time and effort it takes to fully kit 3 mechs out and start saving for the next 3 is about the same time it takes to really get a feel for the mech, and then to get pretty effective in it. Grinding sucks, but if you think of it as getting paid while learning how to kick more ass in your new mech, then it's actually fun and awesome (this is coming from someone who has elited quite a few mechs now...but admittedly did pre-order most of them).

[Felbombling]

What is your time worth to you? If you go to the movies for an afternoon you'll end up spending what... $25.00 between the ticket and snacks for two hours of entertainment.

You can buy yourself four new Clan Mechs, four Mech bays, some new paints, camo patterns and some cockpit items for $30.00 right now. They'll give you hours upon hours of entertainment by way of comparison.

I don't mind tossing a few bucks PGI's way to support their efforts.

[Krysic]

Agreed OP. I'd give what little I have if I could actually buy anything with it. $20-$30 a pop is too high (I run a non-profit theatre company). As it stands the $100 I'm in for is about all this game will probably see from me if the pricing schedule doesn't change drastically. Even premium time is a waste because it runs while you're not playing.

That's not good value, that's a straight up "F*** you casual player. This game is only for the hardcore."

To those of you talking about what other F2P games cost you're missing the point. Particularly once the game hits steam it's going to be competing for the money of a LOT of people who have no idea what Mechwarrior is. Most other F2P games give you the majority of the games core functionality for free.

These guys need to calculate the amount of time players spend in the mechlab. I'll bet it's 3 times the amount they spend shooting stuff. You limit access to mechs and equipment and you're missing one of the biggest draws in the franchise.

I'd love to see PGI do a completely free, all mechs, all weapons, all skills weekend and track the number of players as well as sales of mechs, colors, patterns and other customization options. Seems counter intuitive but I bet the overall revenue for that weekend (and possibly the following week) would go UP.

Edited by Krysic, 22 March 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[Quxudica]

StaggerCheck, on 22 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

What is your time worth to you? If you go to the movies for an afternoon you'll end up spending what... $25.00 between the ticket and snacks for two hours of entertainment.

You can buy yourself four new Clan Mechs, four Mech bays, some new paints, camo patterns and some cockpit items for $30.00 right now. They'll give you hours upon hours of entertainment by way of comparison.

I don't mind tossing a few bucks PGI's way to support their efforts.

I don't go to theaters for this reason (baring very rare special occasions), a two hour movie is not worth 25 bucks plus the rip off of food stand prices. Yes I am very frugal.

[Krysic]

Pezzer, on 22 March 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

But at any rate, on to your points. You can earn the C-Bills to buy almost any mech in the game with only a few days of play, with upgrades. But guess what? Yep. This game has servers to run and people to pay, so you have to buy premium to get that kind of reward in the period of time you desire. It's only 15 bucks a month and you get free premium time when you buy pre-order packs, so keep that in mind.

Holy heaven, how many c-bills do you make per match?

If I get 4-5 kills in a match, w/ 4-5 assists and some extra bonuses in one of my light hero mechs (usually my oxide) I'm lucky to come in around 250K without premium time or additional bonuses. I have to play for 8-9 solid hours of EXCELLENT game play to buy a stock Timberwolf with very little upgrading. Then I have to do it twice more, plus the upgrade costs.

Even with premium time it would take 12-15 hours of superb play to get 3 variants of the Timberwolf and kit them out. Mind you, this is for a mech that I cannot even know I will enjoy because it's movement and power will change so much as I level my skills.

(Please don't mention trial mechs to me, they don't feel anything like a mastered mech. You may as well be piloting something else entirely.)

[Quxudica]

Krysic, on 22 March 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Holy heaven, how many c-bills do you make per match?

If I get 4-5 kills in a match, w/ 4-5 assists and some extra bonuses in one of my light hero mechs (usually my oxide) I'm lucky to come in around 250K without premium time or additional bonuses. I have to play for 8-9 solid hours of EXCELLENT game play to buy a stock Timberwolf with very little upgrading. Then I have to do it twice more, plus the upgrade costs.

Even with premium time it would take 12-15 hours of superb play to get 3 variants of the Timberwolf and kit them out. Mind you, this is for a mech that I cannot even know I will enjoy because it's movement and power will change so much as I level my skills.

(Please don't mention trial mechs to me, they don't feel anything like a mastered mech. You may as well be piloting something else entirely.)

This is pretty much my point of view on the subject and why the prices bother me. I'm sure for people with dedicated drop groups and high win rates cbills are a non issue, but I pug 100% of the time and don't have that much play time to begin with, so I make around 150k in an average win where I performed well, 90k or so in a loss.

[N0MAD]

The people that say other F2P games are more grind... lol.
The difference is, lets take say WT, sure big grind upto the jets, heres the big difference, its takes very litle grind to get out of the starter planes, a few hours, then you are competitive in your rank, you have a good plane to compete in for that rank, advancing into a new plane isnt a 20 hour+ grind, and you are quickly competitive at your rank.
You are not thrown into a match in your first days vs guys that have played for 3 years in their fully kited out Jets.
Sure a lot of F2P games take a lot of hours but there is advancement along those hours that keep you interested and competitive during your time played.

[Felbombling]

Quxudica, on 22 March 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

I don't go to theaters for this reason (baring very rare special occasions), a two hour movie is not worth 25 bucks plus the rip off of food stand prices. Yes I am very frugal.

Alright... then compare the $30.00 to any other form of entertainment you'll spend money on. I don't care what... hookers, blow, booze. Same basic principle.

N0MAD, on 22 March 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

The people that say other F2P games are more grind... lol.
The difference is, lets take say WT, sure big grind upto the jets, heres the big difference, its takes very litle grind to get out of the starter planes, a few hours, then you are competitive in your rank, you have a good plane to compete in for that rank, advancing into a new plane isnt a 20 hour+ grind, and you are quickly competitive at your rank.
You are not thrown into a match in your first days vs guys that have played for 3 years in their fully kited out Jets.
Sure a lot of F2P games take a lot of hours but there is advancement along those hours that keep you interested and competitive during your time played.

War Thunder does a good job at new player introduction, but there is indeed a progression slowdown right around tier III that really makes the game a grind. World of Tanks has brutal tier IV tanks that make people want to tear their hair out, and even in the tier VII-VIII region, we're talking a few hundred games to advance to the next tier, at an average of about ten minutes a game. No way the MechWarrior: Online grind is bad by way of comparison.

[vettie]

I dont say much about what someone does or does not spend in this (or any) game or form.
The Basic Rule is

NEVER get between a man and his money. Period.

Its your money, do what you want with it.

As far as the grind, I have been part of this version of MechWarrior since they had 2 maps in closed beta.
For an IS Mech, you need basically twice as much (CBills) as the basic cost to 'outfit' it.
Clan mechs, not so much, but you may wish to swap pods for different weapons loads, so their real cost varies depending on what you want to do with the chassis.
The skills? Well, the Elite Tree or branch or what ever you wan to call it is really a requirement to make the mech competitive, but not always. I buy in 3s and level them all the way to Master. Others do not and do a great job.

PGI does things a bit easier with the likes of the recent 2xp weekend to help grind the leveling. Little Contests like the current one can earn you Premium time that helps with the CBills and even XP. Premium time is the best way to earn CBills and Xp, but it does cost real dollars (for the MC) so if you wish not to spend, you must grind.

It is your money. The grind is the grind.

[Johnny Z]

Rakshasa, on 22 March 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Well, they would be if there wasn't an ongoing effort to balance IS and Clan mechs against each other. Taken from a whole experience perspective you'd think that if both sides 'Mechs perform similarly then their prices would be similar too. Alas!

Also, what's with the Man Baby dig? People like Clan mechs, no reason to insult them

Good point. Nothing personal, I just figured these forums needed some equally biased comments as those coming from some Clan players such as "its not the mechs its the player" "get good" "teamwork is OP" "underhive" etc etc etc.

Unlike their biased comments my comments are always on topic and in good taste.

[Krysic]

StaggerCheck, on 22 March 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Alright... then compare the $30.00 to any other form of entertainment you'll spend money on. I don't care what... hookers, blow, booze. Same basic principle.

People keep saying things like this but again it seems to be missing the point.

We WANT to see the game succeed but it's NOT competing with a "Friday night at the movies", it's competing with a steam sale that will net me 4 FULL GAMES for the price of one assault mech.

Everything feels like a money grab. Did they raise debt? If this things running on a cash basis it's never going to be competitive. Maybe it's time for another full round of financing to expand the operation, speed up development (cause that's what this is, it's NOT a complete game, it's like a half-life 2 mod on a fancier engine) and put them in a much better position for the steam launch.

[Lordred]

I know, all the mechs are too inexpensive.