112 replies to this topic

[Christof Romulus]

Nori Silverrage, on 23 March 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

With the exception of range and velocity none of the bonuses it provides are given via quirks usually. Also I don't believe anyone was complaining about not getting range quirks. What they are complaining about is a -4% duration which would bring a LPL from 1.1 to 1.056... Yippy. Meanwhile a large chunk of IS mechs have -10% to -25% duration on already low duration weapons. The LPL for instance, it is already at 0.67 which is 40% less than the CLPL, add on a -15% duration and you are down to 0.57 which is a 48% bonus over CLPL.

Do mechs like the Crow, Dire or Timber need lower duration? No, they seem fine as is, but the mechs they "buffed" like the Adder could get significantly increased survivability (less face time) by getting a 15% duration reduction. That CLPL would go down to 0.935 which would actually be quite nice.

Just so we're on the same page here, full disclosure, the IS LPL before its most recent change had a beam duration of just over .28 seconds or so - IIRC it was more than DOUBLED.

With that said, the IS LPL isn't comperable to the CLPL in any way, due to the range difference between the two. Even after its BUFFED range, the IS LPL is only 365 meters, compared to the CLPL's 600. 48% shorter beam duration, while the CLPL shoots 40% farther and deals 16% more damage.

If people haven't noticed, PGI has decided that, for beam weapons, range equates beam duration. The IS ERLL previously had the same burn time of the ISLL, No longer - duration increased. So, you want less beam time? Ask PGI to take away from your range.

[Triban]

Steve Pryde, on 23 March 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Fear it, Freebirths:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a790007961d60c

Let's be reasonable here:

SCR-A

[Repasy Cooper]

Lol...

I've been taking advantage of this for months!

WHK-SCUD

DWF-MCKENNA

WHK-CROW

Moment I started using builds like this my k/d shot up like crazy.

[FupDup]

Triban, on 23 March 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Let's be reasonable here:

SCR-A

I AM DEATH, I AM FEARLESS, I AM INVINCIBLE!

What's really surprising is that it actually looks like a somewhat viable build lol.

[0bsidion]

I try to squeeze in at least a TC1 on all my builds, because you're right, they are like getting quirks. They don't make up for bad geometry (Nova), bad hardpoint placement (Gargoyle, Nova, Summoner, Myst Lynx, Ice Ferret), lack of pod space (see previous list), or lack of hardpoints, (see previous list plus Adder), but they do help.

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 23 March 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I AM DEATH, I AM FEARLESS, I AM INVINCIBLE!

What's really surprising is that it actually looks like a somewhat viable build lol.

Fear the PeaceDove™.

[Lily from animove]

I trade my tc for 12,5% heat reduction quirks or any 25% rnge quirk.


k thx bb would trade again.

[Nori Silverrage]

Christof Romulus, on 23 March 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Just so we're on the same page here, full disclosure, the IS LPL before its most recent change had a beam duration of just over .28 seconds or so - IIRC it was more than DOUBLED.

With that said, the IS LPL isn't comperable to the CLPL in any way, due to the range difference between the two. Even after its BUFFED range, the IS LPL is only 365 meters, compared to the CLPL's 600. 48% shorter beam duration, while the CLPL shoots 40% farther and deals 16% more damage.

If people haven't noticed, PGI has decided that, for beam weapons, range equates beam duration. The IS ERLL previously had the same burn time of the ISLL, No longer - duration increased. So, you want less beam time? Ask PGI to take away from your range.

True words, but don't forget that many IS mechs have 10% or 15% energy range, combined with the 10% from a ranged module and you are up to 438m and 456m. Sure that isn't the 600 (or 675 with module/TC1) that CLPLs get, but I run a lot of IS LPLs and with even minor quirks it wrecks, and hitting out to 438-456m is almost always enough, as most combat takes place within 600m anyway.
It is much easier to deal 5-6 damage at 600m with the IS LPL in a single component than the same damage with a CLPL even though it deals more damage and gets full damage at 600m.

Not saying the CLPL needs a buff or anything, just that certain bad clan mechs would be helped significantly by duration decreases. I think the CLPL and IS LPL match up pretty nicely. Great pinpoint damage at shorter range, or great general damage at longer range.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 23 March 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Triban]

0bsidion, on 23 March 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I try to squeeze in at least a TC1 on all my builds, because you're right, they are like getting quirks. They don't make up for bad geometry (Nova), bad hardpoint placement (Gargoyle, Nova, Summoner, Myst Lynx, Ice Ferret), lack of pod space (see previous list), or lack of hardpoints, (see previous list plus Adder), but they do help.

IS suffer from bad hardpoints and design all the time, except for the fact that when you put XLs in IS bad designs, they die much, much faster. When you don't, they are shooting at you with cap guns.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeah sorry to tell you this but those aren't the real targeting computers stats,
Those of the stats before targeting computers were released,

Real targeting computers have half the stats in some areas,
For instance targeting computer Mk7 only give us 7.5% beam range,

[TheSilken]

Um TC's only actually effect Clan lasers, ppcs, and ACs and all of these suck compared to their IS versions due to quirks, facetime, and heat/damage ratio. Honestly TCs don't really do much for you compared to quirks. Now..........if they also effected Gauss Rifles........................................

Edited by TheSilken, 23 March 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[RedDevil]

Quirks are supposed to be a weightless, critless, buffs for poor performing mechs. The TC does not help close the gap, as you can slap it on high performing mechs as well.

On another note, the Command Console needs to do something better for its cost.

[John80sk]

This is a terrible comparison... quirks are free, TC costs tonnage/crits.

What's the primary issue with weaker clan mechs? Lack of tonnage due to over sized engines, hardwired equipment, and lack of endo. The TC is mostly useful on mechs that can spare the tonnage, meaning mechs that are good with or without it because they can already mount a formidable array of weapons.

[BARBAR0SSA]

For the OP

here you go lets compare 3 LLs vs 3 cERMLs since the argument is that clan MLs are IS LL/ERLLs using fairly average quirks

3 erMLs = 3T, 405M Range 7 Damage 6 Heat total of 24 Heat for 28 damage

3 is ER/LLs = 15T, 495M (Quirked %10), 9 Damage 6.25 Heat(Quirked %12.5) total of 18.75Heat for 27 damage

To get the heat lets add 4 DHS to at least get the erMLs heat down, so every 10 seconds you dissipate an extra 5.6 Heat, remember though it takes 10 seconds, it's not an instant saving like the ISLLs

If you add in a TC7 you can at least get your cERMLs range to around 435M

All of a sudden to get the cERML to ISLL stock range you've ate up 15 Crit slots on top of the 3 used for the cERMLs and still short 50M

Some quirks extend that range %20+ as well.

not to mention cERMLs are 1.15s Burn time

Where a quirked IS LL is 0.875s burn time. using a common %12.5 quirk.


Now the next 3 cERMLs added would of course not have ghost heat penalty so you could fire them all at once(eating up another 11 Crit Slots) but with the quirked ISLL burn duration quirk and perfect timing, BOTH would finish their full duration burn at almost the identical time. With a massive heat penalty going to the Clan laser user because they would need to wait 10s for the full effects of the heat to be fully dissipated, where the quirked IS mech would have the instant heat savings.


I've never understood the whole "Just add heat sinks and it's the exact same" argument, if you're in a brawl and can't peek, waiting for your heat to go away is not good when upfront damage is king.

Anyways TLDR;

to get cERML and ISLL near each other it eats up a massive amount of crit space in clan mechs, you can lose your TC, cERML has less range, you are stuck waiting 10s for heat to dissipate,

6LL vs 6 erML, erMLs Use less tonnage and far far more crits, both finish burn time exactly the same time, clan mech has to wait 10s for around 12 extra heat to dissipate (2/3 the amount of a 3LL IS mech volley), does 2 more damage than 3x2 isLLs

Edited by shad0w4life, 23 March 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Rhaythe]

John80sk, on 23 March 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

This is a terrible comparison... quirks are free, TC costs tonnage/crits.

I agree it is a terrible comparison - but not one that can be completely neglected once range quirks do make their way to Clan machines. A range boost is a range boost, and for the Clans to get quirks, TCs, AND modules while IS gets only two of the three would be an issue.

Otherwise, are we back to "equal but asymmetric"? Clans get TCs, extended range defaults, and modules, while IS get quirks and modules?

Edited by Rhaythe, 23 March 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[Mcgral18]

OP, you could have at least gotten the correct information. Please fact check. 2.25 range, not 4.5. Literally half.

The only worthwhile TC is the LVL1, everything else is wasteful aside from very niche builds. Hurray, I gain 5 Meters range on my ERSLs....while the Lolcust gains 27. I have to pay a ton to get that...Lolcust does not.

Triban, on 23 March 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

IS suffer from bad hardpoints and design all the time, except for the fact that when you put XLs in IS bad designs, they die much, much faster. When you don't, they are shooting at you with cap guns.

Does your Commando run at 107? No? It goes 170?

How is that possible? My Myth Lynx can't take anything other than a 175 engine, with a hardwired AP, and 3 tons of JJs that cannot be removed. It also has 3 PoorDubs due to the tiny engine


You know, if it were an IS Gundam, it could take an XL250, 4 JJs, 4 lasers and move 178 with 4 tons of weapons.
That would be a nice Gundam...but Clams can't have more than two of those. We need to adhere to TT rules, which IS robots completely ignore.

Edited by Mcgral18, 23 March 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

0bsidion, on 23 March 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I try to squeeze in at least a TC1 on all my builds, because you're right, they are like getting quirks. They don't make up for bad geometry (Nova), bad hardpoint placement (Gargoyle, Nova, Summoner, Myst Lynx, Ice Ferret), lack of pod space (see previous list), or lack of hardpoints, (see previous list plus Adder), but they do help.

How do the following mech's you have listed suffer from bad hardpoint placement exactly? I prefer my lasers in the arms so I can accurately keep the damage on the components I destroy on an enemy mech, and also damage target's above me/ in the air that I otherwise could not reach if the lasers were in the torso's.

Edited by Alwrath, 23 March 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[0bsidion]

Mcgral18, on 23 March 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

OP, you could have at least gotten the correct information. Please fact check. 2.25 range, not 4.5. Literally half.

The only worthwhile TC is the LVL1, everything else is wasteful aside from very niche builds. Hurray, I gain 5 Meters range on my ERSLs....while the Lolcust gains 27. I have to pay a ton to get that...Lolcust does not.



Does your Commando run at 107? No? It goes 170?

How is that possible? My Myth Lynx can't take anything other than a 175 engine, with a hardwired AP, and 3 tons of JJs that cannot be removed. It also has 3 PoorDubs due to the tiny engine


You know, if it were an IS Gundam, it could take an XL250, 4 JJs, 4 lasers and move 178 with 4 tons of weapons.
That would be a nice Gundam...but Clams can't have more than two of those. We need to adhere to TT rules, which IS robots completely ignore.

I agree. Before Clan tech got so watered down I was more than happy to take all the penalties associated with driving an Omni. Now I'm thinking we should probably get things like Endo, FF, and JJs unlocked, at the very least on underperforming chassis, as well as getting true modular universal hardpoints that'll let us slot any weapon system in them. Why not? IS can practically customize every aspect of their mech, and their technology is supposed to be what, 300 years behind the Clans?

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Mcgral18, on 23 March 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

You know, if it were an IS Gundam, it could take an XL250, 4 JJs

You act as if you get no benifit from 6 jj's on the Myst Lynx. I would never want to go lower than 6 jj's, they give you more maneuvering options than 4 would.

Edited by Alwrath, 23 March 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Alwrath, on 23 March 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

You act as if you get no benifit from 6 jj's on the Myst Lynx. I would never want to go lower than 6 jj's, they give you more maneuvering options than 4 would.

You bring your JJs on Sulphurous, I'll take more Heatsinks.