86 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

As you may know, you can have a maximum of 10 TrueDubs on a given robot. These are dictated by the engine size. A 250+ rated engine comes with all 10 packaged inside the engine...the issue lies with those engines smaller than 250, which do not include all 10 TrueDubs, and force you to take the inferior PoorDubs, at 0.14 dissipation and 1.4 heat capacity VS 2 and 0.2.


I seem to remember the argument for PoorDubs being the mythical "3 second Jenner", that could core an Atlas in three seconds...which would actually have taken 5 seconds to deal 60 damage back then...but that still doesn't explain why all mechs can't have 10 TrueDubs.


This is an issue for all (subpar) Clan light mechs, which are saddled with poor engine sizes, tiny for their weight class, as well as mechs such as the Locust, Commando, Blackjack and Vindicator, along with any mech with a sub 250 engine capacity. Our beloved Urbie will also have the Cute Fox issue.


The Mist Lynx and Cute Fox lose 0.207 H/s dissipation because of those 3 PoorDubs compared to a 250 rated light mech.
That is an entire TrueDub they lose out on. Likewise, 2.16 heat capacity.

Compared to a 250+ rated mech:

• 57.84 as opposed to 60 heat cap
  
• 2.093 as opposed to 2.3 dissipation

While I am also upset with the general state of PoorDubs, how a mech with 10 DHS has 11.5 DHS worth of dissipation, how a 17 DHS mech has 17 TrueDubs, while a 18 DHS mech does not have 18 TrueDubs; I feel this issue is more important, since it does affect the weakest mechs, such as Commandos, Locusts and Mist Lynxes.




The first 10 DHS should be TrueDubs, period. Not simply restricted to 250+ rated engines. PoorDubs for 10+ can remain...for now.


Easy band-aid solution? Give +0.6x Heat Dissipation quirks to the affected mechs. That nullifies the deficiency, and normalizes them with mechs that have a 250 rated engine complete with 10 TrueDubs. X corresponding to the number of PoorDubs.

Theoretically possible, as armour quirks come in both % values (+50%) and numerical (+10) values.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 September 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Why don't we choose one value for everything? Its simpler and its fair: 1.7 for everything

(yes its a nerf for the poor dubs, and the 10 DHS is enough for 2 ERPPC freaks - but its better for those that really burn tonnage to get more heatsinks. NERF<20 DHS < BUFF

Yes the story of the Jenner - not that even 2.0 DHS would have allowed him to be heat neutral

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 March 2015 - 07:12 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

I can agree with this, if we're to be saddled with 1.4 DHS than the first 10, all in engine or exterior should be true dhs

[InRev]

Or we could just have TrueDubs for all, reduce the heat cap, remove the heat cap increase given by heatsinks, and scrap Ghost Heat, thus shifting builds toward sustained DPS instead of raw alpha damage, while simultaneously increasing time to kill due to reduced spike damage . . .











But we all know that makes too damn much sense.

Edited by InRev, 24 March 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[Rhaythe]

You forget. PGI doesn't see heat buildup as a problem. No Heat-Neutral Buids™, says the MechApostle Paul.

[Bishop Steiner]

I been pushing for this for a long time. Be a huge help for guys like the Mist Lynx, TDK, Locusts, etc. And might actually require a lightening of some of the specialized quirks.

But really, making mechs less quirk reliant..that is a GOOD THING, right?

[Karl Streiger]

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Or we could just have TrueDubs for all, reduce the heat cap, remove the heat cap increase given by heatsinks, and scrap Ghost Heat, thus shifting builds toward sustained DPS instead of raw alpha damage, while simultaneously increasing time to kill due to reduced spike damage . . .

There is a crux with that - I'm also strongly in favour of this threatment - question is - if a LightMech sporting say 6 MLAS can't fire them in a single alpha - he is not of worth anymore in MWO.

So you have to find a balance that allow Light Mechs to make their slasher runs - but allow for example BattleMasters with there mainly "light" weapons to keep a constant barrage.

I'm toying with that ideas for a couple of months - not on a regular basis but from time to time -and yet i did not find a good spot. But its not my job to do this stuff

[Paigan]

I admit I learned about the DHS difference just yesterday and the terms just from this thread.
I must say I find "TrueDubs" und "PoorDubs" hilariously cute terms :-D.

[Lordred]

Signed, make it so.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

Stuff.

Nothing to see here. Upvote and move on...

[Kyynele]

This would likely also open up some new, even competitively valid build options. As it is, I never even consider putting an engine smaller than 250 to any mechs that can take one, because of that being obviously wasted cooling potential. Having the heat sinks take extra space outside of the engine is enough of a drawback. Make it so.

[InRev]

Karl Streiger, on 24 March 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

There is a crux with that - I'm also strongly in favour of this threatment - question is - if a LightMech sporting say 6 MLAS can't fire them in a single alpha - he is not of worth anymore in MWO.

So you have to find a balance that allow Light Mechs to make their slasher runs - but allow for example BattleMasters with there mainly "light" weapons to keep a constant barrage.

I'm toying with that ideas for a couple of months - not on a regular basis but from time to time -and yet i did not find a good spot. But its not my job to do this stuff

Heat cap of 30. It's a good balancing point because it keeps 3PPC alphas out but allows 3 LLs or 6MLs or MPLs.

The bizarre fear that Mr Paul has of heat neutrality has created such a *********** of balance in this game. Ghost heat, TrueDubs only in 250+ engines, heat quirks, etc. The high heat cap creates even more problems because it allows a player to use a ridiculously high heat build for a short period of time, creating massive spike damage. Then, the player just hides behind cover and cools off. This pushes players towards a "peek-a-boom" style of fighting: dump your laservomit for 50+ points of alpha, then get back behind the hill. Lower heat cap and increased dissipation would reduce pee-a-boom fights in favor of sustained brawls. That sounds more fun to me!

Plus, with the high rates of fire that we have, TrueDubs still wouldn't permit truly heat neutral builds anyway! It would just make things more consistent.

[Bishop Steiner]

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

Heat cap of 30. It's a good balancing point because it keeps 3PPC alphas out but allows 3 LLs or 6MLs or MPLs.

The bizarre fear that Mr Paul has of heat neutrality has created such a *********** of balance in this game. Ghost heat, TrueDubs only in 250+ engines, heat quirks, etc. The high heat cap creates even more problems because it allows a player to use a ridiculously high heat build for a short period of time, creating massive spike damage. Then, the player just hides behind cover and cools off. This pushes players towards a "peek-a-boom" style of fighting: dump your laservomit for 50+ points of alpha, then get back behind the hill. Lower heat cap and increased dissipation would reduce pee-a-boom fights in favor of sustained brawls. That sounds more fun to me!

Plus, with the high rates of fire that we have, TrueDubs still wouldn't permit truly heat neutral builds anyway! It would just make things more consistent.

Brother, let's be honest, that is not going to happen. Anymore than fixing convergence, etc will. Beating that drum.....it just...it just gets us all more frustrated.

Lets look at things that we realistically MIGHT be able to achieve with PGI?

[Roadbuster]

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Or we could just have TrueDubs for all, reduce the heat cap, remove the heat cap increase given by heatsinks, and scrap Ghost Heat, thus shifting builds toward sustained DPS instead of raw alpha damage, while simultaneously increasing time to kill due to reduced spike damage . . .

That's what I'd like to see too. But keep the ghost heat.
DHS for sustained DPS with lower heat capacity.
And improved SHS heat capacity to make them preferable for big heat spikes but slow cooldown.

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

Lower heat cap and increased dissipation would reduce pee-a-boom fights in favor of sustained brawls. That sounds more fun to me!

That works till someone equips 2-3 Gauss...

Edited by Roadbuster, 24 March 2015 - 08:07 AM.

[Lordred]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Lets look at things that we realistically MIGHT be able to achieve with PGI?

Even then it is difficult to even get them to notice us.

[Crotch RockIt]

Also, there needs to be consequences for heat build-up, other than shutdown. Things like increased risk of ammo explosion, HUD flickering, inability to get target info, etc. You know, like a real Battletech sim.

[Bishop Steiner]

Crotch RockIt, on 24 March 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

Also, there needs to be consequences for heat build-up, other than shutdown. Things like increased risk of ammo explosion, HUD flickering, inability to get target info, etc. You know, like a real Battletech sim.

or like it was in early CB.

[InRev]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Lets look at things that we realistically MIGHT be able to achieve with PGI?

More mech packs?

[Firelizard]

As much as I'd love to see a 30 heat cap, it would need to be a soft cap with increasing debilitating effects when going above it.

Otherwise mechs like the Nova Prime and Warhawk Prime are left with weapons they can never use, where in canon they could be used, but you had to roll the dice on the extra heat ruining your day.

[Metus regem]

InRev, on 24 March 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

More mech packs?

Sadly, that is very likely the only thing they are going to do...

It bothers me, as I can see the potential of MWO, and I see them almost squandering it, they made a good move by adding CW, but there needs to be some weight to decisions we make in game, like a reason not to use the biggest engine, a reason to use standard internals and armour, a reason to use single heat sinks...

I'd also like to see different versions of the PPC, like Donnals that may fire a little slower or travel a little slower, but hit harder or Lord's Light, that may do reduced damage, but fire faster, further and travel faster.

Firelizard, on 24 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

As much as I'd love to see a 30 heat cap, it would need to be a soft cap with increasing debilitating effects when going above it.

Otherwise mechs like the Nova Prime and Warhawk Prime are left with weapons they can never use, where in canon they could be used, but you had to roll the dice on the extra heat ruining your day.

Every Warhawk Prime I have every used, that fired all four cERPPC's, always cooked off that LRM ammo....