214 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 24 March 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

You undersell that range + velocity improvement, which really the range improvement is minimal in comparison to the velocity. Is it as awesome as the Grid Iron's quirks, no, but the 4G is still able to beat the GI under 400m through a combination of its lasers and AC20. That isn't even mentioning the slightly more fragile nature of the GI thanks to Goose explosions.

Don't get me wrong, I think the GI is one of the better Hunchbacks, but not by that much over the 4P or 4G.

I'd say just reduce the cooldown quirks to 40% total instead of the current 50% would be enough.

I really can't say that the velocity make that much difference at the realistic ranges to maximize the AC20. It helps with the occasional "long range sniper shot" (you know..shooting that juicy direwolf in the back at 600 meters, lol) but in sub 400 meter combat, the GI, if packing an ac20 is every bit as effective as the 4G. It's the bloody MacGuyver SwissArmy Mech of the HBK family.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

XL and no secondary weapons, nor JJs. Color me unimpressed?
Also, what are it's CURRENT quirks? What a mech used to have would be...kind of irrelevant to this conversation.

Are you serious?

Bishop, this soapbox of yours... this... are you serious?

If you're actually complaining about an XL friendly mech, purely bred for just outright dakka (at least for the quirks at that moment) AND complaining about the lack of JJs... I think you are being far more hypocritical that you're letting on.

Edit: I ran the BJ-1DC a while ago with said quirks (not that build, because I don't believe in going full dakka like that) and it was pretty good. The current quirks... I liked the previous quirks much more.

Right now it has terribad AC2 quirks (the quirks are good - the terribad refers more to the AC2), but that's more to do with the state of AC2s than anything.

Much as I like talking about the meta (I don't), but I do have a soft space in my heart for bad mechs and variants. What you're pointing out IMO is something that isn't broken and wasn't problematic (I don't remember a rage against the Grid Iron quirks when they were first introduced). There's already enough problems with this game, and the Grid Iron's quirks honestly isn't one of them.

I have favorite mechs that suck, but I'm not going to go around telling people to undersell mechs that have a fair niche and I'm willing to acknowledge that not everyone will like it. Still, I feel you're trying to get favoritism "for your underwhelming mechs" (which are probably true) but not properly address that there are complete garbage mechs that still won't benefit from said change.

Seriously, the Grid Iron really isn't exactly over the top ridiculous compared to other things. I like Gauss. I shoot it often. I run it in your favorite "Enforcer-4R" chassis and I've declared it the best 50-ton chassis within the 50 tonners (it's actually very meta-compliant). Sometimes... I honestly wonder.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

still missing the point

again, what a mech USED to have has exactly what bearing in discussing current quirks and over quirked mechs?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

again, what a mech USED to have has exactly what bearing in discussing current quirks and over quirked mechs?

I'm using an example that implies that I believe you're overstating the issue. It's very simple.

If the Grid Iron was some sort of goto CW mech (it isn't, not that it isn't used), you might have something there.

I don't feel that you do, thus the comments.

[luxebo]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes, it has it's weaknesses. Same ones as every other HBK. So why does it get the ability to run any ballistics as good as the others, AND gauss at twice the ability of other ballistics?

Kinda defeats the concept of being...balanced?

Relook at the quirks. 4G gets 25% velocity, range, AND cooldown while GI gets 50% cooldown ONLY.

GI is a hammerer from range, which means get in close, take out that torso and he's gone. Let him hit your arms not your CT/ST. Remember Gauss has the charge up time as well, making an extra couple seconds there. 4G has additional AC20 quirks making it strong in close combat. Gauss vs AC20 have different roles.

Edit: I'm ok with 35% cooldown though. Earlier you said 25%, which would've sorta screwed the Grid Iron over. I think 40% is a better approximation but 35% will do I believe.

Range helps a bit with a short weapon like the AC20. It's quite farther now with range, and velocity helps with faster shots in order to be able to get that mech in the front/back before he shields. It helps a ton. In fact I'm in favor of giving 35% cooldown and maybe 10% ballistic velocity? That might be beneficial as more of a sniper rather than such a huge RoF buff.

Edited by luxebo, 24 March 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Michael Abt]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

I really can't say that the velocity make that much difference at the realistic ranges to maximize the AC20. It helps with the occasional "long range sniper shot" (you know..shooting that juicy direwolf in the back at 600 meters, lol) but in sub 400 meter combat, the GI, if packing an ac20 is every bit as effective as the 4G. It's the bloody MacGuyver SwissArmy Mech of the HBK family.

Have to disagree on this one, Bishop. The AC20 velocity quirk is the most underrated yet so important quirk the 4G has to offer.

[Yokaiko]

Michael Abt, on 24 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Have to disagree on this one, Bishop. The AC20 velocity quirk is the most underrated yet so important quirk the 4G has to offer.

I know when they have that event that paid extra for "special" mechs, the -4G was my go to, guaranteed to get the points required with as little effort as possible.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'm using an example that implies that I believe you're overstating the issue. It's very simple.

If the Grid Iron was some sort of goto CW mech (it isn't, not that it isn't used), you might have something there.

I don't feel that you do, thus the comments.

If I was using court of public opinion, over hard cold numbers to state the case, I would say you have a point. Also, I see plenty of GIs, every match, CW and otherwise.

[Juodas Varnas]

Maybe it's just my skill-level, but for me, Grid Iron is basically the ONLY variant of the Hunchback i ever see.

Just throwing this out there. No reason at all.

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Abt, on 24 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Have to disagree on this one, Bishop. The AC20 velocity quirk is the most underrated yet so important quirk the 4G has to offer.

so you say. I disagree. I guess we run things different. It sure the heck ain't an extra 25% cooldown important.

Truly riddle me this, if you had a choice between the current 37% cooldown on your ac20 with the velocity boost, or having a 67% cooldown, would you still take the velocity? And if you say yes, think we can get Paul to let us try out which is more effective in the test server?

The Gauss doesn't need velocity because it's already at 2000 m/s.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

If I was using court of public opinion, over hard cold numbers to state the case, I would say you have a point. Also, I see plenty of GIs, every match, CW and otherwise.

I never said it wasn't used though....

My point though was that despite the quirks, it's not that ridiculously huge an impact (in terms of OP/UP). It's good enough for more people to use it, which is generally a reasonably good result.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Scatcada laughs at your Gridiron.
And your paintjob too.

Gauss ECM Cicada-3m is so much better.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8063211b1aa7c7

Edited by Mister D, 24 March 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 24 March 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I know when they have that event that paid extra for "special" mechs, the -4G was my go to, guaranteed to get the points required with as little effort as possible.

4J is even easier, most matches. Only knock on the GI, is relying on your team not to fold so you can snipe unimpeded.

[Burktross]

I'd rather 15% gauss cooldown, -50% gauss charge up time, +50% charge duration

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

4J is even easier, most matches. Only knock on the GI, is relying on your team not to fold so you can snipe unimpeded.

I don't own a -4J, and even if I did, I hate LRM and basically never use them. I like to be in your face, punching it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 24 March 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

I don't own a -4J, and even if I did, I hate LRM and basically never use them. I like to be in your face, punching it.

personal preference doesn't really dictate the effectiveness of a chassis, in the grand scheme though, does it?

[Kenyon Burguess]

I have one and I ran around in it for an afternoon with gauss and ac/20 builds and still settled on the ac20 build. while the gauss is fantastic, its very niche as the games most extreme long range glass cannon. you cannot enter brawl range because that torso pops every time with a gauss crit. everyone shoots a hunchie hunch. its only being noticed now as a good defender on the cw maps due to range and lane issues but I don't see it remaining in the meta as more and more diverse cw maps are added.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

personal preference doesn't really dictate the effectiveness of a chassis, in the grand scheme though, does it?

Yeah, I'll be more effective with that AC20, a lot more. I averaged a 62 match score over 13 games with the -4G in dual mlas/AC20 standard engine trim (so 89.9kph). For reference the three games I played in my laser vommit OMG NERF Stormcrow averaged 56.

Its not what you use its how you use it, and you will have a VERY hard time convincing me that LRMs are ever worth it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 24 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yeah, I'll be more effective with that AC20, a lot more. I averaged a 62 match score over 13 games with the -4G in dual mlas/AC20 standard engine trim (so 89.9kph). For reference the three games I played in my laser vommit OMG NERF Stormcrow averaged 56.

Its not what you use its how you use it, and you will have a VERY hard time convincing me that LRMs are ever worth it.

not trying to.

Convincing you, or me, of the merits of an individual chassis or weapon has about zero impact on it's actual impact on MWO as a whole. I'm the cat's meow in a Vindicator. Doesn't make them a MEta mech.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

not trying to.

Convincing you, or me, of the merits of an individual chassis or weapon has about zero impact on it's actual impact on MWO as a whole. I'm the cat's meow in a Vindicator. Doesn't make them a MEta mech.

So you are saying a -4J is more effective overall than a -4G? Quit dodging this time.

I'm saying nothing with LRM is "effective" because well, LRM.