291 replies to this topic

[Barantor]

YCSLiesmith, on 03 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

because the fight is over already. if i am spawn camping you, the game is done. you're truly bad and there is no chance that you will win, simply because that's the only way this situation arises. therefore i will do us both the courtesy of ending the game as quickly as possible. What I won't do is some condescending honor game where i let you land and get set and then beat you at your best. we both know i could do this, or i wouldn't be spawn camping you. why rub it in? let the game end.

Except in a lot of other more popular games than this there are even tournament level of play where a nearly defeated enemy regroups because they have that ability and goes back to stomp.

Are you afraid that if you can't 'finish it' that you will get killed when you think you won?

This is a symptom of why CW isn't popular and just another tick on why MWO as a whole is never taken really seriously as a game and definitely not as any e-sport.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Barantor, on 04 April 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Except in a lot of other more popular games than this there are even tournament level of play where a nearly defeated enemy regroups because they have that ability and goes back to stomp.

Are you afraid that if you can't 'finish it' that you will get killed when you think you won?

This is a symptom of why CW isn't popular and just another tick on why MWO as a whole is never taken really seriously as a game and definitely not as any e-sport.

Please read page 2 of this thread to see suggestion how to balance the possible result of spawn camping. You are on the right track but you skipped 6 or 7 pages of replies.

[Sarevos]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

how in the world do you expect me to have a fun competitive match against players who are so bad that they let me into their heavily defended base to kill their spawn? I guess I could start teamkilling but that seems kind of drastic. much better to beat them and then drop against someone who doesn't suck.

HAHAHAH you are dense sir and missing the point.

If the match was so onesided that it devolves to spawn camping that means the other team is so confident that they do not need to take the objective and will simply farm cbills for kills. As this is a mechanic used in a way other than that of the creators intentions "This is an exploit" albeit a farming one. But not only that its also one which keeps the opponent in the match for an extended period of time rather than them being able to just say "nah I think i'll pass on dropping any further". As their mechs are locked in the match during this period even if they dc. This is the issue with the dropship system that I feared. It wouldnt be an issue if people didnt abuse it by standing there facing the spawn and lolling at the other team ALLOWING THEM SCREENSHOTS OF THIS BEHAVIOR.

I literally got shouted at on teamspeak for just killing the generator while the rest of the team was trying to farm for kills 2 even tried to kill me to stop me. This is an example of poor sportsmanship. This is no longer the OMG 12 mans vs the pugs debate it is one of this happens because someone gets greedy (to be honest most of us in cw and teams do not need to farm cbills as our stables are pretty full) or is padding stats.

If you are simply trying to get the match over so you can have a fair fight then do it. And when youre done go to the forums and state that youre finding it to easy to spawn camp because of X or MatchMaking is not working well enough.

INSTEAD you wait until someone from the other side of the issue complains and berate them as bads who need to get better because it sucks to suck.

If you take issue with it from the skill side like so many others who have made detailed and well organized posts then post so you can give yourself some credibility.

This... This is why we cant have nice things...

In order to be asked to pay for a game you must be allowed time to play, people who dont get to play do not pay... Simply put.

Rather than ONLY allowing surrendering also allow them to not drop on the next wave until they feel the drop ship is full enough to fight back or to just force the other team to take the objective. Or have a heavily defended safe zone to spawn in. Or get rid of the 4 life stock altogether

[Mystere]

rolly, on 04 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

They don't need to make anything fancy to stop spawn camping. Just making it costly and follow actual canon. If the implemented the full firepower of the Dropships this wouldnt be exploited.

What do you think would happen if those same dropships were also used by the defenders? How much harder would you think it would be for the attackers to take the base?

Not that I am against such an idea. But, I just want to make sure people realize what they are suggesting.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Sarevos]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

What do you think would happen if those same dropships were also used by the defenders? How much harder would you think it would be for the attackers to take the base?

thats why you should have a sheltered landing zone and not one right over the objective

"Danger enemy landing zone enter at your own risk" kinda deal just dont allow sight lines for the dropship out towards the objective but put the landing zone somewhere where they cannot be fired upon without being shot back

[Mystere]

Barantor, on 04 April 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Except in a lot of other more popular games than this there are even tournament level of play where a nearly defeated enemy regroups because they have that ability and goes back to stomp.

Are you afraid that if you can't 'finish it' that you will get killed when you think you won?

Well, the key phrase is "tournament level of play". That implies very good players on both sides. So it is highly conceivable that one side can still recover and win. But those are a very small minority.

But then again, Superbowl XLVIII happened.

Barantor, on 04 April 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

This is a symptom of why CW isn't popular and just another tick on why MWO as a whole is never taken really seriously as a game and definitely not as any e-sport.

Well, as I have said countless times in here:

**** eSports!

I did not come here for that.

[R Razor]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

What do you think would happen if those same dropships were also used by the defenders? How much harder would you think it would be for the attackers to take the base?

Not that I am against such an idea. But, I just want to make sure people realize what they are suggesting.

So take away the defenders drop ships..........if you're not Attacking or Counter Attacking then you wouldn't be getting dropped in most likely anyway. Give them mech hangers and make them march into battle...........then the only side with drop ships are the attackers, and since they are dropping away from the objective, the only way the uber weapons on the dropships would affect the defenders is if they tried a **** move like spawn camping,.

[Sarevos]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Well, as I have said countless times in here:

**** eSports!

I did not come here for that.

No you didnt and neither did alot of us but the problem that arises is a matter of identity for this game.

If its not going to be an Esport then it needs to be either an FPS or a Sim to sit well in its market.


the method of balance would likely be adding things very esports/moba like such as npc units like tanks, vtols and the like (Creeps if you will) to add the extra level of depth to combat simply keeping the field more dynamic so the standard line up and shoot the enemy approach isnt the only viable method

Being more objective based helps (Like the battlefield series) It makes sense as well since we arent the faction but mercs backing them up. Why wouldnt they devote troops to holding these places if they are being held in their name?

Roles would form making less need for chassis to chassis balance that they are failing to handle currently allowing commanders to use their units tactically we might move in lances instead of just a company ttk would go down I can see alot of good from a select few moba principles and some from other franchises

Edited by Sarevos, 04 April 2015 - 09:38 AM.

[Mystere]

Sarevos, on 04 April 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

No you didnt and neither did alot of us but the problem that arises is a matter of identity for this game.

If its not going to be an Esport then it needs to be either an FPS or a Sim to sit well in its market.

As I have also said many times, any eSports in MWO should be restricted to the Solaris mode, if and when that arrives. People can go knock their socks of in that mode all they want.

Sarevos, on 04 April 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

the method of balance would likely be adding things very esports/moba like such as npc units like tanks, vtols and the like (Creeps if you will) to add the extra level of depth to combat simply keeping the field more dynamic so the standard line up and shoot the enemy approach isnt the only viable method

Being more objective based helps (Like the battlefield series) It makes sense as well since we arent the faction but mercs backing them up. Why wouldnt they devote troops to holding these places if they are being held in their name?

Roles would form making less need for chassis to chassis balance that they are failing to handle currently allowing commanders to use their units tactically we might move in lances instead of just a company ttk would go down I can see alot of good from a select few moba principles and some from other franchises

For those you can go here if you have not done so already.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 04 April 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

So take away the defenders drop ships..........if you're not Attacking or Counter Attacking then you wouldn't be getting dropped in most likely anyway. Give them mech hangers and make them march into battle...........then the only side with drop ships are the attackers, and since they are dropping away from the objective, the only way the uber weapons on the dropships would affect the defenders is if they tried a **** move like spawn camping,.

Currently, attackers have a very fast way to end and win a match, by concentrating on destroying the cannon generators. What alternative do you propose to allow the defenders to accomplish the same thing other than spawn camping?

And just to reiterate, if attacking the enemy's landing zone is a **** move as you call it, what is the purpose of those weapons carried by dropships? Are they just there for "special effects"?

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

Barantor, on 04 April 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Except in a lot of other more popular games than this there are even tournament level of play where a nearly defeated enemy regroups because they have that ability and goes back to stomp.

Are you afraid that if you can't 'finish it' that you will get killed when you think you won?

This is a symptom of why CW isn't popular and just another tick on why MWO as a whole is never taken really seriously as a game and definitely not as any e-sport.

you're an idiot if you believe this. the 'nearly defeated enemy' regroups because a) he can recover his numbers with good defense, and he is more skillful than the opponent, who failed to make the kill.

when you are being spawn camped, know one thing: you are not as good as the guy spawn camping you. he or she is superior to you at mechwarrior. by an order of magnitude. not just that, but his or her whole team is superior to your whole team. you can never win against that. there will never be a regroup and overcome because you couldn't pull it off. if you could, you would have driven him off your spawn.

Sarevos, on 04 April 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

HAHAHAH you are dense sir and missing the point.

If the match was so onesided that it devolves to spawn camping that means the other team is so confident that they do not need to take the objective and will simply farm cbills for kills.

you don't play a lot of cw do you. ever hear of a little thing called counter attack? get out of my face with your poverty burns and poverty mechwarrior play, nublet.

also, as far as farming to 48 goes? **** em. sure i could kill omega in those gametypes that require that, but thats a waste of cbills and time both. at least now i'll be compensated for dropping against garbage.

Edited by YCSLiesmith, 04 April 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Sarevos]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

you don't play a lot of cw do you. ever hear of a little thing called counter attack? get out of my face with your poverty burns and poverty mechwarrior play, nublet.

also, as far as farming to 48 goes? **** em. sure i could kill omega in those gametypes that require that, but thats a waste of cbills and time both. at least now i'll be compensated for dropping against garbage.

Well there you go, thank you for proving that you have the foresight of a small rodent and the intellect to match. Vass could still come up with a better arguement when he was trolling and drunk...

I am speaking to the mentality or lack thereof

I'm here to play the game and when it draws on too long I seek to end it rather than play with my food i get bored with the fish/barrel experience as others have stated here as well. What I did was say if you are infact so good as you claim yourself to be then you dont need that crutch do you so what are you arguing for?

What is a poverty burn? and what the flying f*** is poverty play? Isnt what youre doing poverty play? You need to exploit the system to earn that cash?

And 'Nublet'? You're an adult act like one and not an idiot or at least not like a prepubescent. No one said about how good you are (or how hard you are carried ) but the fact that the behavior is counter productive to growing the game. Thus proving that you miss the critical point here...

Edited by Sarevos, 04 April 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Sarevos]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

you're an idiot if you believe this. the 'nearly defeated enemy' regroups because a) he can recover his numbers with good defense, and he is more skillful than the opponent, who failed to make the kill.

when you are being spawn camped, know one thing: you are not as good as the guy spawn camping you. he or she is superior to you at mechwarrior. by an order of magnitude. not just that, but his or her whole team is superior to your whole team. you can never win against that. there will never be a regroup and overcome because you couldn't pull it off. if you could, you would have driven him off your spawn.

Lol you do yourself a great discredit in thinking its so cut and dry.

If your matchup is bad you will lose, upon picking mechs suited for such combat you will push back your enemy, and then they will counter your current strategy. The way its supposed to work is the method in which your trade determines control of the field.

Now with spawn camping if the team is wiped in the initial battle and sets up for the next phase they drop in staggered leaving them 4 against the remaining 8 attackers a decided loss unlike a full 12 against 8 which would result in pushing the enemy back.

Thats numbers and why a very badly countered team will eject out of their mechs in unison to prevent being camped and turn the sway I've seen quite a few units do i.t

So no youre the deficient one for thinking they CANNOT turn a battle around after being pushed back so far.

Edited by Sarevos, 04 April 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[Sarevos]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Currently, attackers have a very fast way to end and win a match, by concentrating on destroying the cannon generators. What alternative do you propose to allow the defenders to accomplish the same thing other than spawn camping?

And just to reiterate, if attacking the enemy's landing zone is a **** move as you call it, what is the purpose of those weapons carried by dropships? Are they just there for "special effects"?

I think thats what he means though in a not so eloquent manner. If the weapons are to have an effect on the match its because the defenders attempted to spawn camp thus make their strength a non issue

[Barantor]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

you're an idiot if you believe this. the 'nearly defeated enemy' regroups because a) he can recover his numbers with good defense, and he is more skillful than the opponent, who failed to make the kill.

when you are being spawn camped, know one thing: you are not as good as the guy spawn camping you. he or she is superior to you at mechwarrior. by an order of magnitude. not just that, but his or her whole team is superior to your whole team. you can never win against that. there will never be a regroup and overcome because you couldn't pull it off. if you could, you would have driven him off your spawn.

Scared? Scared that you can beat one wave but if they get another chance in the same game you won't be able to handle it? This is what it sounds like.

I'm done with you though, you aren't bringing anything to this conversation except "if they were better they would win, everything is fine" which will kill a game faster than anything.



If CW is going to have moba maps it might as well adopt the rest of the moba parts, that or have maps with some actual tactical reasoning behind them.

[nitra]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

actually it's more like saying you're doing a man a courtesy by scoring enough in, say, ping pong, to activate the mercy rule rather than letting him score some so that you can drag things out for the full half hour

as for mugging, if you think that every game in CW is a mugging then maybe you should not play CW.


look pal, you had the chance to play the game. you had the opportunity to kill me in all the time it took for me to kill the gates and march up to your spawn, and you have an opportunity to kill me every second i'm at the spawn. the fact that you didn't is not on me, it is on your garbage team. as for the 'spirit' of the game, maybe that works if you're way into clan lore, but im kurita. that zellbrigen **** doesn't apply to me.

like, say the shoe is on the other foot. you are marching up to my spawn having declared outright that you're gonna farm my unit to 48. you know what we do? we shoot you while you march in, we shoot you when you reach the spawn, we hit you with everything we've got and eventually you lose the critical mass to keep camping us. that's how this game is played. we don't challenge you to 1v1 duels because we're not roleplaying clanners. if you challenge US to 1v1 duels we laugh at you because we're not roleplaying clanners. sorry you are too bad at this game to handle house kurita but that's not my fault.

Actually no, i may have had the chance to play maybe half the game .. maybe half, depends on how well the other team can blitzkrieg.

It really has little to do with how awesome a player you are .. mainly because the maps are so poorly made that any team with half the initiative can orchestrate a successful spawn camp strategy.

at this point the camped unit can be considered shattered, and the current game mechanics offer little in the way of reorganizing or trying a different strategy, regardless of how many mechs are left.

You really dont get the spirit of the game ? thats ok as many players just want to bum rush the objective/ attacking team and death match it up . those gates and objectives are really there for scenery only, and never instituted to change up the flow of a typical MWO match.

As you stated , about loosing "critical mass" it works both ways. unfortunately when the camped unit needs to respawn they are re spawning into a disadvantage because each individual unit is focused fire and killed within 3 - 4 second window rinse and repeat.

Regardless spawn camping is a symptom of broken mechanics, sitting here defending how awesome you are at spawn camping is only defending a broken mechanic and offers little to make CW a better game.

Unfortunately as other games have shown, people love their spawn camping. as they enjoy playing the games like duck hunt.

i understand the nostaliga this bring and its great we can play it with mech skins and big guns. but honestly

i would rather play mech warrior rather than sit at a spawn and focus fire on targets as they are dropped in front of me.

[Mystere]

nitra, on 04 April 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Actually no, i may have had the chance to play maybe half the game .. maybe half, depends on how well the other team can blitzkrieg.

It really has little to do with how awesome a player you are .. mainly because the maps are so poorly made that any team with half the initiative can orchestrate a successful spawn camp strategy.

at this point the camped unit can be considered shattered, and the current game mechanics offer little in the way of reorganizing or trying a different strategy, regardless of how many mechs are left.

You really dont get the spirit of the game ? thats ok as many players just want to bum rush the objective/ attacking team and death match it up . those gates and objectives are really there for scenery only, and never instituted to change up the flow of a typical MWO match.

As you stated , about loosing "critical mass" it works both ways. unfortunately when the camped unit needs to respawn they are re spawning into a disadvantage because each individual unit is focused fire and killed within 3 - 4 second window rinse and repeat.

Regardless spawn camping is a symptom of broken mechanics, sitting here defending how awesome you are at spawn camping is only defending a broken mechanic and offers little to make CW a better game.

Unfortunately as other games have shown, people love their spawn camping. as they enjoy playing the games like duck hunt.

i understand the nostaliga this bring and its great we can play it with mech skins and big guns. but honestly

i would rather play mech warrior rather than sit at a spawn and focus fire on targets as they are dropped in front of me.

You've mentioned it enough times that I now want to ask: Just what precisely is the spirit of the game?

[nitra]

I believe it to be as the map is laid out attack and defend .

you have a group of attackers with an objective to destroy

you have a group of defenders with a objective to protect

farming for kills via spawn camping is not playing the game as it was intended.

for games are supposed to be fun for all involved even if your loosing.

not an exercise in frustration / helplessness when you have a broken mechanic in play such as the current state of spawn camping in CW

[Telmasa]

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

how in the world do you expect me to have a fun competitive match against players who are so bad that they let me into their heavily defended base to kill their spawn? I guess I could start teamkilling but that seems kind of drastic. much better to beat them and then drop against someone who doesn't suck.

YCSLiesmith, on 04 April 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

you're an idiot if you believe this. the 'nearly defeated enemy' regroups because a) he can recover his numbers with good defense, and he is more skillful than the opponent, who failed to make the kill.
when you are being spawn camped, know one thing: you are not as good as the guy spawn camping you. he or she is superior to you at mechwarrior. by an order of magnitude. not just that, but his or her whole team is superior to your whole team. you can never win against that. there will never be a regroup and overcome because you couldn't pull it off. if you could, you would have driven him off your spawn.
you don't play a lot of cw do you. ever hear of a little thing called counter attack? get out of my face with your poverty burns and poverty mechwarrior play, nublet.
also, as far as farming to 48 goes? **** em. sure i could kill omega in those gametypes that require that, but thats a waste of cbills and time both. at least now i'll be compensated for dropping against garbage.

You are either a troll or deliberately being dumb because you don't have any other means to argue. Rather than respond in full, refer to one of my previous posts here verbatim.

[Mystere]

nitra, on 04 April 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

I believe it to be as the map is laid out attack and defend .

you have a group of attackers with an objective to destroy

you have a group of defenders with a objective to protect

farming for kills via spawn camping is not playing the game as it was intended.

for games are supposed to be fun for all involved even if your loosing.

not an exercise in frustration / helplessness when you have a broken mechanic in play such as the current state of spawn camping in CW

I hope you realize that not everyone who kills the enemy on their LZs is doing it to farm. There are those who do so to end the match quickly.

As for my version of the "spirit" of the game, here it is:

I have an invasion to win. As such, I intend to fight each battle as efficiently and as quickly as I possibly can to reach Terra as quickly as possible. I do not have the time to engage the enemy via politeness, chivalry, or any of the other so-called niceties of war.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2015 - 12:19 PM.