291 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

HimseIf, on 03 April 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

i am too honourable to spawncamp as a tactic.

They chose to invade my homeland, and now I have to defend it. As such, I have every intention of making them pay a very heavy price for doing so.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2015 - 04:51 AM.

[Averen]

Mystere, on 03 April 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

They chose to invade my homeland, and now I have to defend it. As such, I have every intention of making them pay a very heavy price for doing so.

You should find out their adress, got to their home, and destroy their computer. Only way to make sure they don't come back.

[DustySkunk]

Spawn camping as an actual legitimate tactic? If this was war and you were determined to win by any means necessary than yah. However this is not war, but a game in which a semblance of balance must be maintained in order to produce somethinf called fun.

You see, fun is different for everyone but I can guarantee what fun is not: playing a rigged game. When someone pulls off spawn camping on you it feels like you are playing heads up poker against someone who is blatantly cheating and the dealer won't do a thing about it. It becomes impossible to win. Not. Fun.

There isn't a mech in the game that is set up reasonably that can withstand two direcheese alphas (or any pinpoint 40+ DMG alpha for that matter) in their soft meaty back. Without being crippled or dead. Just saying.

All this "anything goes hyuck hyuck" and "get gud scrub" bullshit is for mount try hard. More specifically the the people that worship at its feet. These are the same people who take advantage of any bit of broken game design. There are simple fixes to this problem. Beefier drop ships or multiple spawns for instance. Both solutions make sense balance wise and lore wise.

Bottom line: a team should never be put in the position where they do not even have any possibility of playing. Spawn camping denies the enemy team completely. The fact that it can happen doesn't mean you should do it. Think about it.

Edit: One last thing: for those of you that think that it can't happen to you, remember that there is always another team that is better that you out there. It can happen to anyone.

Edited by DustySkunk, 03 April 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Amsro]

Spawn camping is a direct result of poor map design.

The spawns are at the attackers objective. In order to take the gens you need to be in the same area as the spawn, once you take a few enemies down the spawn is in the battle field.

Take Hellbore for example, that is a better designed map with a much harder spawn area to camp. In fact I dare say it is the only map without an auto spawn camp zone. There is no other reason to go to the spawn other then to camp.

On the other side Sulfurous is the worst spawn camp offender, as long as you avoid the center gate you can camp just inside the other 2.

[YCSLiesmith]

Zolaz, on 02 April 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

Is that what you call it when you are dead and disconnected while your team mates are still on their first mechs?

maybe you should find a more aggressive team. if everyone is on their first mech and you're getting spawn camped then the problem is cowardice on the part of your unit.

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

Spawn camping as an actual legitimate tactic? If this was war and you were determined to win by any means necessary than yah. However this is not war, but a game in which a semblance of balance must be maintained in order to produce somethinf called fun.

You see, fun is different for everyone but I can guarantee what fun is not: playing a rigged game. When someone pulls off spawn camping on you it feels like you are playing heads up poker against someone who is blatantly cheating and the dealer won't do a thing about it. It becomes impossible to win. Not. Fun.

the difference here is that no one is cheating, you just suck at poker and keep raising hoping to draw what you need on that inside straight

[DustySkunk]

YCSLiesmith, on 03 April 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

maybe you should find a more aggressive team. if everyone is on their first mech and you're getting spawn camped then the problem is cowardice on the part of your unit.


the difference here is that no one is cheating, you just suck at poker and keep raising hoping to draw what you need on that inside straight

I said it feels like your playing against someone who is cheating (BTW I'd never raise on an inside straight draw). That sucks. That's not fun, which is why I made that analogy.

This is a game about mech combat. Why play if you aren't interested in the combat part? That's what spawn camping amounts to... Not even allowing an opponent to fight.

It's also clearly taking advantage of design errors~ just like tapping JJ to enter god mode. I say again: just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Had some great games against Ghost Bear yesterday. Won some and lost some, but there was a particular game where we were getting trounced. We were outclassed by a mile. Hats off to Ghost Bear, they did not spawn camp although they had total control of the map. They stayed out of range and beat us the old fashioned way: legitimately. We lost badly but it was still fun and I would play with/against those guys any time. The moral? If you're that overpowering you don't need to spawn camp to win. At least we had a chance to play and I think that's all anyone wants.

Edited by DustySkunk, 03 April 2015 - 07:52 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

I said it feels like your playing against someone who is cheating (BTW I'd never raise on an inside straight draw). That sucks. That's not fun, which is why I made that analogy.

This is a game about mech combat. Why play if you aren't interested in the combat part? That's what spawn camping amounts to... Not even allowing an opponent to fight.

It's also clearly taking advantage of design errors~ just like tapping JJ to enter god mode. I say again: just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Had some great games against Ghost Bear yesterday. Won some and lost some, but there was a particular game where we were getting trounced. We were outclassed by a mile. Hats off to Ghost Bear, they did not spawn camp although they had total control of the map. They stayed out of range and beat us the old fashioned way: legitimately. We lost badly but it was still fun and I would play with/against those guys any time. The moral? If you're that overpowering you don't need to spawn camp to win. At least we had a chance to play and I think that's all anyone wants.

the reason i said your analogy was dumb is that spawn camping is nothing like cheating except in one particular: you (you personally I mean, not a general you applying to everyone) lose when it happens to you. unfortunately your feelings and your inability to handle people just playing the game as it is meant to be played (spawn camping is accomplished by simply moving forward and shooting people) doesn't matter to anyone.

unlike when facing cheaters, skillful play will prevent you from being spawn camped. unlike when facing cheaters, your losses actually do reflect on you and your inability to play this game with even marginal competence. Thus the cheating analogy breaks down.

you say it feels like cheating, but that's just because you can't imagine beating it. you get demoralized and give up and then whine on the forums about it. unfortunately there are only three solutions here: stop playing CW, learn how to play CW better, or take the rough with the smooth.

it also isn't 'taking advantage of design errors, just like tapping jj to enable god mode' because what it actually takes advantage of is the fact that you're an anchor around the neck of your entire faction and the planet you are defending would be better off with just turrets. the reason it feels like god mode is because, in terms of skill, the people spawn camping you are as high above you as the heavens themselves.

[HARDKOR]

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

Spawn camping as an actual legitimate tactic? If this was war and you were determined to win by any means necessary than yah. However this is not war, but a game in which a semblance of balance must be maintained in order to produce somethinf called fun.

You see, fun is different for everyone but I can guarantee what fun is not: playing a rigged game. When someone pulls off spawn camping on you it feels like you are playing heads up poker against someone who is blatantly cheating and the dealer won't do a thing about it. It becomes impossible to win. Not. Fun.

There isn't a mech in the game that is set up reasonably that can withstand two direcheese alphas (or any pinpoint 40+ DMG alpha for that matter) in their soft meaty back. Without being crippled or dead. Just saying.

All this "anything goes hyuck hyuck" and "get gud scrub" bullshit is for mount try hard. More specifically the the people that worship at its feet. These are the same people who take advantage of any bit of broken game design. There are simple fixes to this problem. Beefier drop ships or multiple spawns for instance. Both solutions make sense balance wise and lore wise.

Bottom line: a team should never be put in the position where they do not even have any possibility of playing. Spawn camping denies the enemy team completely. The fact that it can happen doesn't mean you should do it. Think about it.

Edit: One last thing: for those of you that think that it can't happen to you, remember that there is always another team that is better that you out there. It can happen to anyone.

You can choose not to spawn there. It is your teams fault that you keep landing under the gun instead of being moved to a different lance where it is safe.

YCSLiesmith, on 03 April 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

the reason i said your analogy was dumb is that spawn camping is nothing like cheating except in one particular: you (you personally I mean, not a general you applying to everyone) lose when it happens to you. unfortunately your feelings and your inability to handle people just playing the game as it is meant to be played (spawn camping is accomplished by simply moving forward and shooting people) doesn't matter to anyone.

unlike when facing cheaters, skillful play will prevent you from being spawn camped. unlike when facing cheaters, your losses actually do reflect on you and your inability to play this game with even marginal competence. Thus the cheating analogy breaks down.

you say it feels like cheating, but that's just because you can't imagine beating it. you get demoralized and give up and then whine on the forums about it. unfortunately there are only three solutions here: stop playing CW, learn how to play CW better, or take the rough with the smooth.

it also isn't 'taking advantage of design errors, just like tapping jj to enable god mode' because what it actually takes advantage of is the fact that you're an anchor around the neck of your entire faction and the planet you are defending would be better off with just turrets. the reason it feels like god mode is because, in terms of skill, the people spawn camping you are as high above you as the heavens themselves.

QFT

[Mystere]

Averen, on 03 April 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

You should find out their adress, got to their home, and destroy their computer. Only way to make sure they don't come back.

Why, when I can just call SWAT, FSB, Carabinieri, Guardia Civil, Gendarmerie, or whatever is their local equivalent?

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[DustySkunk]

YCSLiesmith, on 03 April 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

the reason i said your analogy was dumb is that spawn camping is nothing like cheating except in one particular: you (you personally I mean, not a general you applying to everyone) lose when it happens to you. unfortunately your feelings and your inability to handle people just playing the game as it is meant to be played (spawn camping is accomplished by simply moving forward and shooting people) doesn't matter to anyone.

unlike when facing cheaters, skillful play will prevent you from being spawn camped. unlike when facing cheaters, your losses actually do reflect on you and your inability to play this game with even marginal competence. Thus the cheating analogy breaks down.

you say it feels like cheating, but that's just because you can't imagine beating it. you get demoralized and give up and then whine on the forums about it. unfortunately there are only three solutions here: stop playing CW, learn how to play CW better, or take the rough with the smooth.

it also isn't 'taking advantage of design errors, just like tapping jj to enable god mode' because what it actually takes advantage of is the fact that you're an anchor around the neck of your entire faction and the planet you are defending would be better off with just turrets. the reason it feels like god mode is because, in terms of skill, the people spawn camping you are as high above you as the heavens themselves.

I still play CW and have fun. I will continue to do so. I do not get spawn camped all the time. I am capable of playing this game with more that "marginal competence" and do so on a regular basis. Any team is capable of being outclassed or ending up in a bad situation regardless of skill. It has happened to you so don't pretend like it hasn't. Anyone who has played this game for ANY length of time has been beaten badly or rolled at one point or another.

So apparently now I'm an "anchor around the neck of my faction?" Way to make assumptions without knowing a thing about me. I have been on the other side of the fence often enough where my team and I have had the opportunity to spawn camp because we dominated the map. Yeah, we didn't because that's not fun for anyone. I just recognize a bullshit tactic when I see one and want to get it fixed. It's either up to the players to stop doing it or to PGI to make changes.

Do you understand the concept of fun? I'm getting the feeling either you don't or that's not why you play this game.

[Mirkk Defwode]

HARDKOR, on 03 April 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

You can choose not to spawn there. It is your teams fault that you keep landing under the gun instead of being moved to a different lance where it is safe.
...

I think the issue is more the Move needs to be automated rather than something a user has to do. Or the spawn selection needs to be on the individual user level rather than on the command level. Shifting people between lances to try to get the best spawn is a poor methodology for avoiding that. At best it's a work around in the current design but not a real solution.

This does fall back as a systemic issue within the game mode design and the level design. The levels design and spawns should be in relatively protected spots, and should not be in line of sight with each other. The best way to prevent and overall spawn camping event is to break them up, add some space with cover to make it so the whole DZ for every lance cannot be surveyed at once. Boreal is a good example of a failure for this, as the two avenues of approach if accessible by the opposition they can sit back in relative safety from the dropships but see all 3 spawn locations. With Large Lasers and PPCs you can hit all of those positions for when people are dropped in. Users also don't have control of their mechs until they hit the ground and the fall animation completes so there is no means of reprisal even in the fall animation assuming you're facing the right direction.

Spawning mechanics for team based games vary heavily from title to title. I detailed out the common ones in a previous post, some of which actually fictionally make sense and are easy outs for PGI to utilize through scripting methods rather than content changes to the maps. Part of what needs to be adjusted is that the defending team needs to feel like they're on the defensive, the offensive team needs to actually be attacking (or at least trying to) and if that means a reckless headlong charge that leaves the spawn exposed then they need to feel secure in their ability to respawn and not be destroyed before any action can be taken.

[Mystere]

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

This is a game about mech combat. Why play if you aren't interested in the combat part? That's what spawn camping amounts to... Not even allowing an opponent to fight.

Let me ask you a question. If attacking the enemy's landing zone is not a legitimate tactic, what is the purpose of those weapons carried by drop ships? Are they just there for "special effects"?

[Scoops Kerensky]

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

I still play CW and have fun. I will continue to do so. I do not get spawn camped all the time. I am capable of playing this game with more that "marginal competence" and do so on a regular basis. Any team is capable of being outclassed or ending up in a bad situation regardless of skill. It has happened to you so don't pretend like it hasn't. Anyone who has played this game for ANY length of time has been beaten badly or rolled at one point or another.

So apparently now I'm an "anchor around the neck of my faction?" Way to make assumptions without knowing a thing about me. I have been on the other side of the fence often enough where my team and I have had the opportunity to spawn camp because we dominated the map. Yeah, we didn't because that's not fun for anyone. I just recognize a bullshit tactic when I see one and want to get it fixed. It's either up to the players to stop doing it or to PGI to make changes.

Do you understand the concept of fun? I'm getting the feeling either you don't or that's not why you play this game.

you've gotten personal with your attacks instead of addressing an argument like he has and only given more legitimacy to his argument. The 'bullshit tactic' only happens when one side is massively outplayed in terms of skill and leads to the same result with or without spawn camping (the team getting spawn camped loses) so it is not an actual issue.

Given that Liesmith and I's team are often the ones doing said spawn camping we are grateful that it exists because it lets us find a new match quicker that might be more well rounded. Trying to 'fix' it will likely only introduce actual balance issues to the game mode.

Edited by Scoops Kerensky, 03 April 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[Mystere]

Mirkk Defwode, on 03 April 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I think the issue is more the Move needs to be automated rather than something a user has to do. Or the spawn selection needs to be on the individual user level rather than on the command level. Shifting people between lances to try to get the best spawn is a poor methodology for avoiding that. At best it's a work around in the current design but not a real solution.

Then people should call for automating drop mechanics instead of insisting that spawn camping is an exploit.

Of course, what will happen next if the drop mechanics are automated and someone still gets killed? I think the highlighted phrase is the biggest issue.

[HARDKOR]

They really should just put in a selector on the mech selection screen that lets you pick alpha, beta, or charlie drop. I bet they hosed the good up so it's not an easy change, but they should do it, regardless.

[anonymous161]

It's the garbage maps that pgi unsurprisingly used for cw. They are all pretty small and dont give you many options in how to fight or defend. Be the first their and be a good shot thats all there is to it.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Mystere, on 03 April 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Then people should call for automating drop mechanics instead of insisting that spawn camping is an exploit.

Of course, what will happen next if the drop mechanics are automated and someone still gets killed? I think the highlighted phrase is the biggest issue.

That's why I said the issue is two fold, it's both level design and spawning mechanics.

In truth if you want spawns within the playable environment you're never going to have them be 100% safe or perfect. All of the previously detailed spawning mechanics are mitigating factors that relegate the odds of being attacked in spawn or immediately after spawning to much lower odds.

I can say that action shooters use a rule of thumb of 6-8 seconds. After spawning you should not have any sort of engagement or take damage for 6 to 8 seconds. That time standard is off everyone moving at relatively the same speed and spawning within some modicum of safety. That rule of thumb should probably be adjusted for MWO based on the bell curve with a leaning toward the slower mechs.

Oddly enough, you see good spawning mechanics for the other game modes that are not CW. Lances are placed equi-distant, they have distance apart be can easily and readily reach each other, and they all spawn within relative environmental cover. But with no respawn in those game modes it's moot point.

[Jonathan Paine]

Sulphur definitely have some design issues; however if you are getting spawn camped blame your own team for their cowardice. As long as you have team mates willing to fight, you can contest C2 and have dropship fire support. Your team has a very short reinforcement route, the enemy literally has to walk for minutes to get back inside. Any defense of sulphur should start with "Dont let them camp alpha side!"


In short, grow a pair!

[YCSLiesmith]

DustySkunk, on 03 April 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

So apparently now I'm an "anchor around the neck of my faction?" Way to make assumptions without knowing a thing about me.

you are a person who gets spawn camped, and therefore are incredibly bad at this game. what more do i need to know? oh, thats right. you also call people 'tryhard' lmao

[Mystere]

Jonathan Paine, on 03 April 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

Sulphur definitely have some design issues; however if you are getting spawn camped blame your own team for their cowardice. As long as you have team mates willing to fight, you can contest C2 and have dropship fire support. Your team has a very short reinforcement route, the enemy literally has to walk for minutes to get back inside. Any defense of sulphur should start with "Dont let them camp alpha side!"

In short, grow a pair!

Alternatively, just use your brains!

Teams that decide to play "sniper peekaboo" away from C2 in Sulfurous Rift almost always get camped when the enemy decides to push at that location.

On the other hand, I've seen teams bait the enemy into C2/C3 with the intent of surrounding and massacring them.

For crying out loud, this game was originally billed as a "thinking person's shooter"!

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2015 - 08:56 AM.