455 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Stoned Prophet, on 28 March 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Thats not what people say at all actually. They go by weapons, mech weights and XL side torso loss.

I beg to disagree:

Zolaz, on 29 December 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

The proof is in the pudding ... just look at the CW map. Clan mechs are still OP. Putting 12 Clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs is not working. PGI has the numbers and anyone with eyes can see the results.

There are a lot more where that came from.

Edited by Mystere, 28 March 2015 - 11:18 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

zortesh, on 28 March 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

i mean compare the premier laser spew timerwolf.(my build)

To the oh so op 6 llas stalker.(from metamechs)

pros and cons.
stalker has higher mounts.
stalker has better inital sustainability.
They both have similar damage and range.
the timerwolf moves much faster.
the timberwolf has 27 dhs to the stalkers 19 dhs, so it dissipates much faster, ie once there both at high heat the timberwolf will be back down to a heat where it can alpha quicker.
The timberwolf can alpha every shot.
laser duration.. mech.. one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once.

Now personally id take that timberwolf over that stalker any day of the week.

a TBR without JJs? A Clan-Laservomit build without TC1 (ok it only adds 2,25% range lulz but you gain crit,zoom,targeting time - i rather like to see faster were i need to shot the enemy than having 1more DHS)? A Build without lower lower arm actuators?

Let us have a Showcase:
"one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once" does not fit the argument: "similar damage and range" since the stk has 54dmg Alpha (in this build you supposed!) @ 585m (450m x20% Quirks + x10% Module) while the TBR is in this build 600m (x10% Module) and 405m (x10% Module) - everything under 445m is the same Alpha if I did the math right it coems down to:

@ Optimal Range for the STKs LL i.e. 585m the Alpha is:
47,3 dmg for TBR vs. 54,0 dmg for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 21,29 damage (ErML/LL 76%))
TBR Heat: 20H (2xLPL) + 24H (4xErML) = 44H before Masterys
STK Heat: 2x21H / with quirks: 16.9H (if fired in two salvos a 3LL) or 68.46H / with quirks: 54,8H before Masterys
@ Optimal Range for the TBRs LPL i.e. 660m the Alpha is:
44,9 dmg for TBR vs. 23,9dmg for 3LL /47,8 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 18,9 (67,5%) vs. STK: 47,8 (LL/LPL 88,5%))
@ Optima Range for not getting hit by TBR ErML i.e. 890m the Alpha is:
19,3 dmg for TBR vs. 17,8dmg/35,5 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 19,3 dmg (LPL@890m 74%) vs. STK: 35,5 dmg (LL@890m 65,7%))
@ above 1170m STK loss any chance to trade damage, so the TBR is in advantage - humm however the TBR only does do ~5dmg and the spread at this range is pretty high i guess.


You can see above between 445m and ~1000m the STK Alpha is higher than the TBR Alpha.
With 4LL the heat to damage ratio not dicipation (the STK has 3.91 heat/s discipation with mastery vs. the TBR 5.04 heat/s with mastery according to smurfys Weaponlab) is better for the stalker with 3 to 4 Lasers at all time and in between 750m and 1000m also the Alpha. So if both mechs would have equal heat dicipation the STK could wins the Damage race - but since the TBR will have higher discipation he can outdamage a STK. But if the Stk can stay away from the TBR an hold target ~2sec or disipate heat penality of his 6LL Alpha behind cover he win attrition war @ any given range above 445m to little above 1000m with the TBR - if the TBR choose to run into his Alpha equal range with this build (445m) he says hello to "Mr. DPS" DRG-1N and "Mr. Strip you" TDR-5SS with MPL - or arn't we talking about CW and 12 players per team? At least i saw some evaporating Mechs in Pushes against such STK/DRG/TDR stands - and if you are down in numbers you are more likely to hide behind cover and the trade on range is more likely than the coordinated push with the use of the better disipation.



so in the end:
stalker has higher mounts. - check
stalker has better inital sustainability. - check (and over all sustainability Std Engine, Armor Quirks, higher max Armor)
They both have similar damage and range. - nopp, or at least not over 445m to 1000m
the timerwolf moves much faster. - check (,but what does it help if you run into a fireline/fokusline - or do you think TBRs w8 around corners to trap a Stk 4N in a 1vs1 xD xD xD)
the timberwolf has 27 dhs to the stalkers 19 dhs, so it dissipates much faster, ie once there both at high heat the timberwolf will be back down to a heat where it can alpha quicker. - check (,but CW is no 1vs1 i guess)
The timberwolf can alpha every shot. - Idk what this should mean
Laser duration.. mech.. one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once. - check (, but you have 11 friends who will not allow that the TBR face melts you in a distance under 445m in first place i guess)

Anyhow, i guess we have some pretty equal sides/or at least it is more equal after quirks than before, with very good mechs compared to others on the side on IS side and Clan Side.

Edit: I had some time and put up a graphic of "popular" builds

Comparing some builds, there is a range advantage on the IS side and on top of this a Damage per Heat advantage (however Heat discipation is not equal) - it looks like roles have swapped in the range department. The only one who looks positiv is the 4 C-ErLL Mechs, however they produce a lot heat Alphaing and grouping those will make you be at least 2 Seconds exposed what is vs experienced players not really an option. Just for the Lulz @ 1000m Clan mechs if fired heat efficent do 8 to 14 damage while some IS Mechs (BLR 1S, TDR 5SS, X5) can do 21 damage up to nearly the double.

Edit: Since there is a Bug currently IS Lasers are capped out at 1500m - non or less under this range they do well in damge to Range. Having a open field >1500m in CW with direct LOS is rare - some maps do not even have it. And C-ErLL do like ~2 damage at 1500m anyway, so call it a day to get 8 damage for ~60 heat in a 4LL Clan vomit build, while IS ErLL will give you a 10 to 12 dmg punch back.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 31 March 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[SaltBeef]

Pgi is just weakening the clans bending the Metal until everyone stops complaining about the cookie cutter mechs on both sides of the battle field which IS has the upper hand in CW .... PGI said it before and if you think you sre getting a lore like clan vs inner sphere experience you are not going to get it here they would not even attempt 10 v 12.

[StUffz]

Wing 0, on 28 March 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

and while stiener continues to ignore marik like they shouldn't be doing, they take your planets in the south. sad they taking a lot of em now.

Oh, we don't ignore them, it's just that protecting against the Clan is more important.

[JDH4mm3r]

zortesh, on 28 March 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

I did this.... The clan mechs were clearly superior. The teamwork was non-existant, I couldn't find a good 12man to play with, there was no coordination... and everyone insisted on taking super bad mechs like novas and ice ferrets when they could take stormcrows and timberwolves.

Let me correct you here and now: I do not consider the nova a super bad mech. If you are a good pilot, you should be able to pilot anything and turn a superbad mech into something kickass with the skills you have. I'll take the nova anyday over the stormcrow and i've pwned other stormcrow pilots in that same mech. So don't be too quick to judge.

[Leggin Ho]

Jakob Knight, on 28 March 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

The only reason Clan mechs overheat so much is because Clan pilots choose to overgun their mechs with lasers without regard to the heat sinks needed to keep the mech balanced. Clan weapons generate more heat, but they also get more tonnage for heat sinks by virtue of their weapons weighing less than their Inner Sphere equivalents, and more crits to use them in because of their smaller crit size. Indeed, Clan mechs are the only ones that can put double heat sinks in their -legs- to use water to push their cooling even higher!

That doesn't even get into the greater damage Clan weapons do for the heat that they balance out with those smaller and more numerous double heat sinks, which means a Clan mech can do comparable damage to an Inner Sphere mech with fewer or smaller weapons (a Clan ER Medium Laser is 1/5th the tonnage and half the critical space of the Inner Sphere Large Laser, yet does about the same damage for nearly the same range. Given that the Clan mech can then take 4 more double heat sinks for the saved tonnage..).

Anyway, let's drop this whole 'Clan mechs have more heat issues than Inner Sphere mechs' because it just isn't true. Both types of mech have the same heat issues for the same reason: Pilot decision to overload their mech with weapons instead of the heat sinks to keep it stable. Clan mechs simply have more temptation to do so because of the greater damage potential of their weapons and the idea that a Clan pilot can use their higher average speed to alpha strike and expect to duck back into cover for a cooldown.

Wrong, I don't run over gunned mechs, unless you consider 2 er lrg and 3 er med on a 75 tom mech "overgunning" it, and I don't just alpha fire either, the heat scale for clan mechs is screwed and without true DHS it's not even close since the IS has thier heat quirks and no ghost heat unless they fire more than 3 Lrg at a time so please don't tell me it's just fine.

Hell on my Mist Linx I only have 1 er lrg and 1 er med and that think will over heat as well and with that low amount of weapons a raven can run 2 er lrg and not have 1/2 the heat problems with more firepower and speed.

[Lord0fHats]

We "over gun" our mechs with lasers because all our other weapons (mostly) kind of suck. AC's are terrible. The ERPPC does as much damage as the IS version at 50% more heat. Our missiles stream and are easily gunned down by AMS (plus, LRM's are blarg on both sides). Our Streaks are great, which helps us against Firestarter rushes but not much else. The UAC's can perform but only if you can stack multiples together and the Dire and Hellbringer are the only platforms we have that really excel at that.

Lasers. Gauss. And Streaks. That's really all we got.

Honestly. You want laser vomit to end, fix the other Clan weapons. They're kind of bad.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 29 March 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Lord0fHats, on 29 March 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

We "over gun" our mechs with lasers because all our other weapons (mostly) kind of suck. AC's are terrible. The ERPPC does as much damage as the IS version at 50% more heat. Our missiles stream and are easily gunned down by AMS (plus, LRM's are blarg on both sides). Our Streaks are great, which helps us against Firestarter rushes but not much else. The UAC's can perform but only if you can stack multiples together and the Dire and Hellbringer are the only platforms we have that really excel at that.

Lasers. Gauss. And Streaks. That's really all we got.

Honestly. You want laser vomit to end, fix the other Clan weapons. They're kind of bad.

Isn't the heat for the IS ERPPC the same as the CERPPC? And while both IS PPC's do 10 points of damage, the CERPPC does 10 points plus 5 splash while being lighter and and smaller (less crits). I don't understand people complaining about the CERPPC in comparison to its IS equivalents, because IS PPC's are only generally good on mechs that are quirked to use them. Otherwise the CERPPC is the better weapon compared to the IS ones, save maybe for the standard PPC having less heat (but doing little to no damage under 90 meters, shorter range, and being heavier). This doesn't address the whole IS vs Clan balance issue, but its only quirks that make IS PPC's good in comparison to the CERPPC.

[Gyrok]

Tincan Nightmare, on 29 March 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Isn't the heat for the IS ERPPC the same as the CERPPC? And while both IS PPC's do 10 points of damage, the CERPPC does 10 points plus 5 splash while being lighter and and smaller (less crits). I don't understand people complaining about the CERPPC in comparison to its IS equivalents, because IS PPC's are only generally good on mechs that are quirked to use them. Otherwise the CERPPC is the better weapon compared to the IS ones, save maybe for the standard PPC having less heat (but doing little to no damage under 90 meters, shorter range, and being heavier). This doesn't address the whole IS vs Clan balance issue, but its only quirks that make IS PPC's good in comparison to the CERPPC.

On quirked mechs you get them for far less heat, with much higher velocity, and you have the STD PPC that pre-quirks is only 10 heat, with many mechs quirking the heat downward and velocity up on those as well.

EDIT: THIS JUST IN: CLANS ARE -38 PLANETS FOR THE WEEKEND, WHICH CONFIRMS, CLANS NOT OP!

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Tincan Nightmare, on 29 March 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Isn't the heat for the IS ERPPC the same as the CERPPC? And while both IS PPC's do 10 points of damage, the CERPPC does 10 points plus 5 splash while being lighter and and smaller (less crits). I don't understand people complaining about the CERPPC in comparison to its IS equivalents, because IS PPC's are only generally good on mechs that are quirked to use them. Otherwise the CERPPC is the better weapon compared to the IS ones, save maybe for the standard PPC having less heat (but doing little to no damage under 90 meters, shorter range, and being heavier). This doesn't address the whole IS vs Clan balance issue, but its only quirks that make IS PPC's good in comparison to the CERPPC.

Oh I loved PPC's in MW4. In MWO not so much. The issue is the splash is worthless. Splashing damage across a mech is basically doing their armor rolling for them. This game is about alpha damage/point damage. It's precisely why the clan lasers have been so strong and why pretty much all the other clan weapons (barring Gauss) are relegated to very niche duty or uselessness.

[Jonathan Paine]

Vincent V., on 28 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Why not jump over to a Clan and test the 'Mechs out for yourself?

I did, and my HBR's kicked mucho behind both in CW and in public drops
HELLBRINGER HBR-A 8 5 3 1.67 20 2 10.00 4,425 15,070 01:06:30 HELLBRINGER HBR-B 4 3 1 3.00 13 2 6.50 2,248 9,151 00:35:55

[Kuritaclan]

Tincan Nightmare, on 29 March 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Isn't the heat for the IS ERPPC the same as the CERPPC? And while both IS PPC's do 10 points of damage, the CERPPC does 10 points plus 5 splash while being lighter and and smaller (less crits). I don't understand people complaining about the CERPPC in comparison to its IS equivalents, because IS PPC's are only generally good on mechs that are quirked to use them. Otherwise the CERPPC is the better weapon compared to the IS ones, save maybe for the standard PPC having less heat (but doing little to no damage under 90 meters, shorter range, and being heavier). This doesn't address the whole IS vs Clan balance issue, but its only quirks that make IS PPC's good in comparison to the CERPPC.

"This doesn't address the whole IS vs Clan balance issue, but its only quirks that make IS PPC's good in comparison to the CERPPC." - Yes, DPH of 1 or better 0.66 on the aimed section of mech is just Bullshit. Even firing 3 to 4 C-ErLL do have a better DPH Ratio. so in the End your spread is the same but it is instant and there is no chance for dodge but you have the chance to bring full damage of the Lasers into the aimed part.

[Chrome Magnus]

Can anyone post a pick or link to the CW map when it first started? I curious as to have things have spread.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

EDIT: THIS JUST IN: CLANS ARE -38 PLANETS FOR THE WEEKEND, WHICH CONFIRMS, CLANS NOT OP!

The Space Pope is going to do you a solid and help you out by offering you a wonderful piece of advice that has historically been bestowed upon all students of statistics and the sciences.

"Correlation is not causation."

He hopes that this "lostech" information will help the Clans in their future endeavors.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 29 March 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

I'd honestly attribute the population imbalance not to mech balance but mech variety;

Good IS mechs for CW; Firestarters. Ravens. Spiders. Hunchies. Wolverines. Shadowhawks. Jeagers. Thunderbolts. Stalkers. Battlemasters. Victors.

Good clan mechs for CW; Timbers. Crows. Hellbringers. A hodgepodge of whatever other mediocre/subpar mechs necessary to make your weight.

IS has a host of solid mechs to choose from. Clans really only have three + some meh mechs that let them bring those three.

On top of that, like I said. No one likes being nerfed, and the constant stream of nerfs for Clans combined with buffs for IS has probably trended to many players switching to IS just cause (plus, new quirks = fun to play your old mechs again).

[KraftySOT]

Kuritaclan, on 29 March 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

a TBR without JJs? A Clan-Laservomit build without TC1 (ok it only adds 2,25% range lulz but you gain crit,zoom,targeting time - i rather like to see faster were i need to shot the enemy than having 1more DHS)? A Build without lower lower arm actuators?

Let us have a Showcase:
"one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once" does not fit the argument: "similar damage and range" since the stk has 54dmg Alpha (in this build you supposed!) @ 585m (450m x20% Quirks + x10% Module) while the TBR is in this build 600m (x10% Module) and 405m (x10% Module) - everything under 445m is the same Alpha if I did the math right it coems down to:

@ Optimal Range for the STKs LL i.e. 585m the Alpha is:
47,3 dmg for TBR vs. 54,0 dmg for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 21,29 damage (ErML/LL 76%))
TBR Heat: 20H (2xLPL) + 24H (4xErML) = 44H before Masterys
STK Heat: 2x21H / with quirks: 16.9H (if fired in two salvos a 3LL) or 68.46H / with quirks: 54,8H before Masterys
@ Optimal Range for the TBRs LPL i.e. 660m the Alpha is:
44,9 dmg for TBR vs. 23,9dmg for 3LL /47,8 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 26 damage (full LPL) + 18,9 (67,5%) vs. STK: 47,8 (LL/LPL 88,5%))
@ Optima Range for not getting hit by TBR ErML i.e. 890m the Alpha is:
19,3 dmg for TBR vs. 17,8dmg/35,5 dmg with Alpha for STK (TBR: 19,3 dmg (LPL@890m 74%) vs. STK: 35,5 dmg (LL@890m 65,7%))
@ above 1170m STK loss any chance to trade damage, so the TBR is in advantage - humm however the TBR only does do ~5dmg and the spread at this range is pretty high i guess.


You can see above between 445m and ~1000m the STK Alpha is higher than the TBR Alpha.
With 4LL the heat to damage ratio not dicipation (the STK has 3.91 heat/s discipation with mastery vs. the TBR 5.04 heat/s with mastery according to smurfys Weaponlab) is better for the stalker with 3 to 4 Lasers at all time and in between 750m and 1000m also the Alpha. So if both mechs would have equal heat dicipation the STK could wins the Damage race - but since the TBR will have higher discipation he can outdamage a STK. But if the Stk can stay away from the TBR an hold target ~2sec or disipate heat penality of his 6LL Alpha behind cover he win attrition war @ any given range above 445m to little above 1000m with the TBR - if the TBR choose to run into his Alpha equal range with this build (445m) he says hello to "Mr. DPS" DRG-1N and "Mr. Strip you" TDR-5SS with MPL - or arn't we talking about CW and 12 players per team? At least i saw some evaporating Mechs in Pushes against such STK/DRG/TDR stands - and if you are down in numbers you are more likely to hide behind cover and the trade on range is more likely than the coordinated push with the use of the better disipation.



so in the end:
stalker has higher mounts. - check
stalker has better inital sustainability. - check (and over all sustainability Std Engine, Armor Quirks, higher max Armor)
They both have similar damage and range. - nopp, or at least not over 445m to 1000m
the timerwolf moves much faster. - check (,but what does it help if you run into a fireline/fokusline - or do you think TBRs w8 around corners to trap a Stk 4N in a 1vs1 xD xD xD)
the timberwolf has 27 dhs to the stalkers 19 dhs, so it dissipates much faster, ie once there both at high heat the timberwolf will be back down to a heat where it can alpha quicker. - check (,but CW is no 1vs1 i guess)
The timberwolf can alpha every shot. - Idk what this should mean
Laser duration.. mech.. one mech has to fire 3 llas twice to get the 52 dmg downrange, the other just alphas once. - check (, but you have 11 friends who will not allow that the TBR face melts you in a distance under 445m in first place i guess)

Anyhow, i guess we have some pretty equal sides/or at least it is more equal after quirks than before, with very good mechs compared to others on the side on IS side and Clan Side.

Edit: I had some time and put up a graphic of "popular" builds

Comparing some builds, there is a range advantage on the IS side and on top of this a Damage per Heat advantage (however Heat discipation is not equal) - it looks like roles have swapped in the range department. The only one who looks positiv is the 4 C-ErLL Mechs, however they produce a lot heat Alphaing and grouping those will make you be at least 2 Seconds exposed what is vs experienced players not really an option. Just for the Lulz @ 1000m Clan mechs if fired heat efficent do 8 to 14 damage while some IS Mechs (BLR 1S, TDR 5SS, X5) can do 21 damage up to nearly the double.

This all backs up what I said the other day in General Discussion.

[anonymous161]

Clans are supposed to be a bit op, I understand balancing it so IS players dont quit out, but seriously clans are not that op.

I've seen plenty of clanners switch side recently on cw, so...it's obvous clans are way outnumbered.

Heres my colution. Roll back clans original laser nerfs so they dont run so long give us back the range that we were supposed to have to begin with. None of the maps gives us a viable range option the IS weapons do just as much it seems if not more since they dont have to hold their position as long.

[Jakob Knight]

Leggin Ho, on 29 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Wrong, I don't run over gunned mechs, unless you consider 2 er lrg and 3 er med on a 75 tom mech "overgunning" it, and I don't just alpha fire either, the heat scale for clan mechs is screwed and without true DHS it's not even close since the IS has thier heat quirks and no ghost heat unless they fire more than 3 Lrg at a time so please don't tell me it's just fine.

Hell on my Mist Linx I only have 1 er lrg and 1 er med and that think will over heat as well and with that low amount of weapons a raven can run 2 er lrg and not have 1/2 the heat problems with more firepower and speed.

Fine. Let's end this farce right now.

We will now compare two mechs of identical tonnage, structure, armor, armor type, and with weapons loadouts as close to equivalent as possible. One will be Clan, the other Inner Sphere.

First, we will put up the Hellbringer, mounting 2 ERLL and 3 ERML, with the rest devoted to heat sinks:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...97c436bc5860d8e

This mech has a speed of 81kph, and a total of 28 double heat sinks. There are no ghost heat penalties for this configuration. This will be our baseline for comparison.



Now, we put in a Catapult-Jester, with each configuration fitted to most approximate the Hellbringer:

First, a CPLT-J fitted with identical engine type, and with the C-ERMLs approximated by standard LLs:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...47cfb05f7b62cb7

This design ends up with a total of -14- double heat sinks, far less survivability, and will generate more heat due to the Large Lasers -and- the ghost heat penalties of only firing large-class lasers (5 in total). While firepower is equivalent, the heat for this mech is far, far, far greater than that of the Clan mech.


Next, a CPLT-J fitted to approximate the Clan mech's survivability:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5115a373c9c6671

This mech features a standard engine, which has the same survivability as the Clan engine while maintaining speed. This mech mounts Medium Lasers in the place of the superior Clan ER-MLs, and a total of 15 Double Heatsinks. There are no ghost heat penalties. This configuration has a closer match for heat generation, speed, and durability, but it falls behind the Clan mech completely in firepower and range, as well as having far fewer heat sinks to deal with a similar heat buildup.


Next, we look at a CPLT-J fitted for maximum possible heat dissipation while maintaining weapon and durability parity....

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44294fee2271549

This design has a total of 18 double heat sinks, has ghost heat penalties, and moves at only 53 kph. This configuration will have the same firepower and durability as the Clan mech, but is far slower and still unable to match the heat dissipation of the Clan unit.



Lastly, we will look at a CPLT-J configured for maximum possible heat dissipation:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e751067feaec0f7

This mech features a total of 22 double heat sinks, and a higher speed than the Clan mech. There are no ghost heat penalties. However, the mech falls behind the Clan mech in both durability, firepower, and range, as well as still not coming close to the Clan mech's total heat dissipation capabilities.


These are the facts. Look long and hard at them. A Clan mech has -inherently- better heat dissipation than is possible in an Inner Sphere mech of the equivalent tonnage and upgrades, maintains better weapons, and has better durability for the same speed. Even accounting for the Jester's quirks (10% less heat on energy weapons), it will still generate far more heat due to ghost heat and baseline heat generation unless it sacrifices range and damage capabilities to the Clan mech while -still- not being able to match it's heat dissipation capabilities.

So, to sum up, the only way a Clan mech has more heat issues than an Inner Sphere mech is if the pilot -purposefully- mounts considerably fewer heat sinks to mount more payload, as otherwise they have a -better- heat compensation ability than the Inner Sphere mechs in all areas, even when the Inner Sphere mech makes compromises to the Clan mech in other areas.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 29 March 2015 - 08:09 PM.

[S204STi]

Clam tears make me hard.

[Leggin Ho]

Jakob Knight, on 29 March 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Fine. Let's end this farce right now.

We will now compare two mechs of identical tonnage, structure, armor, armor type, and with weapons loadouts as close to equivalent as possible. One will be Clan, the other Inner Sphere.

First, we will put up the Hellbringer, mounting 2 ERLL and 3 ERML, with the rest devoted to heat sinks:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...97c436bc5860d8e

This mech has a speed of 81kph, and a total of 28 double heat sinks. There are no ghost heat penalties for this configuration. This will be our baseline for comparison.



Now, we put in a Catapult-Jester, with each configuration fitted to most approximate the Hellbringer:

First, a CPLT-J fitted with identical engine type, and with the C-ERMLs approximated by standard LLs:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...47cfb05f7b62cb7

This design ends up with a total of -14- double heat sinks, far less survivability, and will generate more heat due to the Large Lasers -and- the ghost heat penalties of only firing large-class lasers (5 in total). While firepower is equivalent, the heat for this mech is far, far, far greater than that of the Clan mech.


Next, a CPLT-J fitted to approximate the Clan mech's survivability:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5115a373c9c6671

This mech features a standard engine, which has the same survivability as the Clan engine while maintaining speed. This mech mounts Medium Lasers in the place of the superior Clan ER-MLs, and a total of 15 Double Heatsinks. There are no ghost heat penalties. This configuration has a closer match for heat generation, speed, and durability, but it falls behind the Clan mech completely in firepower and range, as well as having far fewer heat sinks to deal with a similar heat buildup.


Next, we look at a CPLT-J fitted for maximum possible heat dissipation while maintaining weapon and durability parity....

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44294fee2271549

This design has a total of 18 double heat sinks, has ghost heat penalties, and moves at only 53 kph. This configuration will have the same firepower and durability as the Clan mech, but is far slower and still unable to match the heat dissipation of the Clan unit.



Lastly, we will look at a CPLT-J configured for maximum possible heat dissipation:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e751067feaec0f7

This mech features a total of 22 double heat sinks, and a higher speed than the Clan mech. There are no ghost heat penalties. However, the mech falls behind the Clan mech in both durability, firepower, and range, as well as still not coming close to the Clan mech's total heat dissipation capabilities.


These are the facts. Look long and hard at them. A Clan mech has -inherently- better heat dissipation than is possible in an Inner Sphere mech of the equivalent tonnage and upgrades, maintains better weapons, and has better durability for the same speed. Even accounting for the Jester's quirks (10% less heat on energy weapons), it will still generate far more heat due to ghost heat and baseline heat generation unless it sacrifices range and damage capabilities to the Clan mech while -still- not being able to match it's heat dissipation capabilities.

So, to sum up, the only way a Clan mech has more heat issues than an Inner Sphere mech is if the pilot -purposefully- mounts considerably fewer heat sinks to mount more payload, as otherwise they have a -better- heat compensation ability than the Inner Sphere mechs in all areas, even when the Inner Sphere mech makes compromises to the Clan mech in other areas.

Yeah please run mechs with armor values like that and see how far you get in a CW drop. I run full armor as well as ECM, BAP and a TC, I can strip a mech down to nothing and just throw weapons and HS on too, doubt you'll get far in a CW match in it though so try again.