118 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

I think that the "signature" feature of an Atlas is supposed to be it's toughness. Not it's firepower, as it was always outgunned in by other mechs in Lore, (it's effective at all range loadout meant it was never hitting as hard as more specialized machines). It should be a Tank.

Correction. It should be THE TANK.

Not hiding in the back with ECM lobbing LRMs, etc. But absolutely the point of the spear, breaking formations and soaking damage...and then soaking some more. It Might not outgun a Dire Wolf, but it should be able to go toe to toe and hold it's undivided attention for a good long time. The Atlas in MWO is NOT the mech that General DeChavilier stormed the Usurper's Palace with.

To do that?

1) Forget the stupid weapon buffs. Only one system should get buffed, and that is it's RT ballistic, as that's it's primary gun. That should get a dang hard buff almost to HBK-4G levels on the AS7-D. And then probably minimal or none on the AS7D-DC and AS7-S. Forget the stupid velocity buffs, laser buffs, etc. Focus solely on cooldown, so that it can use that gun more before it loses it's torso.

So something like:

ALL Atlases:
-Ballistics Cooldown: 20%
AS7-D
-AC/20 Cooldown: 20%
AS7-D-DC
-No extra cooldown
AS7-K
-Gauss Cooldown: 20%
AS7-RS
-AC/10 Cooldown: 20%
AS7-S
-AC/20 Cooldown: 10%
Boars Head
-AC/10 Cooldown: 10%, Energy Heat Generation: -10%, Medium Laser Family Heat Generation: -10%

The D-DC has ECM, which is already huge, and so I don't think it needs more weapon incentives, whereas now one has a reason to consider using other models, offensively.

The Boars Head gets a little more varied, one to differentiate it from the RS, but also because it has a much more limited number of Ballistics and Missiles Slots compared to the others. It's a brawler and needs to be able to use those lasers freely.

And really, offensively? That's it. Why?

2) Because I want it ALL about the defense. Soak that damage. The King Crab is the offensive juggernaut for the IS. The Atlas needs to be the unstoppable avatar of death.

All Atlases:
-Additional Structure (CT): 10 pts.
-Additional Structure (RT): 20 pts.
-Additional Structure (LT): 20 pts.
-Additional Armor (CT): 15 pts
-Additional Armor (RT): 20 pts
-Additional Armor (LT): 20 pts

AS7-K and Boars Head:
Additional Structure (RT/LT): 10 pts

As simple as it gets. Based it off a combined idea from the HBK's RT, the AWS and the Zeus. CT is already pretty solid. But really buffing the STs means that it now isn't disarmed the moment it gets focused by a DWF. I'm even for giving the 7K and BH more ST to encourage their use with Gauss and even give it SOME small change of the XL being viable, comparably, instead of the insta-death it is now. Yeah, it still is a risk, but with the increased firepower, the offensive/defensive risk reward ratio might justify it for some players and builds.

*Edit: "From the Peanut Gallery" (Ideas taken from responses)
Acceleration speed +30%
Deceleration speed +30%
Upper torso twist rate +30%


And it should be noted, I would even be willing to give up ANY Weapons quirks just to see the thing made tough as nails.

Perhaps the numbers are not perfect, and would need tweaking, but there it is, as simple, and ugly and brutal as Kerensky envisioned the Atlas when he commissioned it:

“ A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally. ”

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[Evan20k]

I think Atlas needs a bit more torso twisting speed to spread damage as well. That would greatly improve survivability alone.

[process]

I'm not sure any mech or weapon system should get a 40% reduced cooldown, but it's a start. The extra armor I can definitely get on board with; the Atlas should be the king of the brawlers.

Let's bring back the eye glow while we're at it.

Edited by process, 20 March 2015 - 09:38 PM.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

Perhaps the numbers are not perfect, and would need tweaking, but there it is, as simple, and ugly and brutal as Kerensky envisioned the Atlas when he commissioned it:
“ A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally. ”

Except those words were uttered back in 2755. Full three hundred years before current time and two hundred fifty years before the manufacturing of the Dire Whale. Back then, the Atlas was the toughest SoB around. Times have changed a bit since, and equally tough SoBs have been made.

I agree with Atlas love though. The King Crab has it beat in most categories, except for height.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 March 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[Evan20k]

I think the other thing the Atlas really needs is either more range or a way to get into range without being focused before it can do any meaningful damage. A 50kph assault with 240m range is woefully easy to kite in most mechs and the ones that can't usually can fight it head to head.

Edited by Evan20k, 20 March 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[Triordinant]

While we're at it, let's lessen the screen shake caused by all weapons that hit it by half. A legendary icon shouldn't flinch as much.

Edited by Triordinant, 20 March 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[ThrashInc]

Would still kill any Atlas in 1-2 Alphas because that left eye yo.

[El Bandito]

Triordinant, on 20 March 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

While we're at it, let's lessen the screen shake caused by all weapons that hit it by half. A legendary icon shouldn't flinch as much.

Yes, give the Atlas Advanced Gyro and Hill Climb traits for free.

[Aethon]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

“ A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally. ”

This, right here, is all that needs to be said in support of improving the Atlas from its current state.

The Great Father has spoken.

[Creovex]

@OP

I like where you are going... now assign yourself to the twitter campaign to make this happen and I think the Atlas has a shot!

[Malleus011]

I'd also suggest the Atlas ignoring weapon shake completely.

I like the concept of the OP, though. Quickfiring AC/20 maybe be a tad too quick, but that could be determined with testing. And it isn't like it can carry two.

[Bishop Steiner]

process, on 20 March 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure any mech or weapon system should get a 40% reduced cooldown, but it's a start. The extra armor I can definitely get on board with; the Atlas should be the king of the brawlers.

Let's bring back the eye glow while we're at it.

quite a few already do, and when it's limited to one rather large weapon, it's not near the issue of things like 3x ERPPC madness. But as I noted, I would be ok, with less, or none, as long as the Atlas got made tough.

Evan20k, on 20 March 2015 - 09:43 PM, said:

I think the other thing the Atlas really needs is either more range or a way to get into range without being focused before it can do any meaningful damage. A 50kph assault with 240m range is woefully easy to kite in most mechs and the ones that can't usually can fight it head to head.

So people need to stop building them with only short ranged weapons? Plus I don't think the range is a deal breaker except some maps. Then it needs a lot of maneuvering. But there is a reason it came with an LRM20, and the K has a Gauss and large lasers, etc.

Triordinant, on 20 March 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

While we're at it, let's lessen the screen shake caused by all weapons that hit it by half. A legendary icon shouldn't flinch as much.

I think that Assault mechs should have that greatly reduced across the board, period.

[kapusta11]

Agility quirks can be considered as a form of defensive quirks, mainly acceleration, deceleration and torso twist speed, the first two to reduce facetime the last one to spread damage more effectively. IMO the bane of Atlas is its speed, lighter assaults avoid more damage than they absorb yet Atlas is forced to take it all without that much higher armor. If it were up to me the quirks would look like:

Defensive:
Acceleration speed +30%
Deceleration speed +30%
Upper torso twist rate +30%
RT, LT, RA, LA Armor +20 (who cares about internal structure quirk if your AC20 is gone?)

Its firepower is fine IMO and cooldown quirks will only increase facetime, though I would experiment with missiles, something like
Missile spread -30%
Missile velocity +30%

Edited by kapusta11, 20 March 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Evan20k, on 20 March 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

I think Atlas needs a bit more torso twisting speed to spread damage as well. That would greatly improve survivability alone.

I would be OK with dropping some offensive punch to boost it's twist rate like 10-15%.

kapusta11, on 20 March 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Agility quirks can be considered as a form of defensive quirks, mainly acceleration, deceleration and torso twist speed, the first two to reduce facetime the last one to spread damage more effectively. IMO the bane of Atlas is its speed, lighter assaults avoid more damage than they absorb yet Atlas is forced to take it all without that much higher armor. If it were up to me the quirks would look like:

Defensive:
Acceleration speed +30%
Deceleration speed +30%
Upper torso twist rate +30%
RT, LT, RA, LA Armor +20 (who cares about internal structure quirk if your AC20 is gone?)

Its firepower is fine IMO, though I would experiment with missile quirks, something like
Missile spread -30%
Missile velocity +30%

Could care less about the missiles, as those are secondary and tertiary weapon systems by design, if not by meta, but am onboard with playing with accel/decel rates.

As for the IS quirks, their big advantage is that it usually keeps the AC20 from going until the torso is toast. That is why the IS buffed HBK is so much better than the similar armor buff it had before.... because I almost never lose the gun until the whole torso goes. This is doubly important for Gauss.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 March 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I like the extra armor idea for the Atlas. Not sure about the rest.

+1 for Atlas being the top damage sponge. +1 for Orion being top heavy damage sponge since it hasnt the hard points or speed for much else and the same "shoot me" profile of the atlas.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 March 2015 - 10:21 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

Could care less about the missiles, as those are secondary and tertiary weapon systems by design, if not by meta, but am onboard with playing with accel/decel rates.

I don't know that I agree with this one. Maybe in lore it was secondary but when you have variants like the D-DC and S around, that left side is important. Granted boosting the AC20 side would help balance it out which is why I like boosting the AC20.

As for the K, it does not need Gauss quirks, it needs general ballistic quirks or some sort of quirk that prevents the Gauss from exploding.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 20 March 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

I don't know that I agree with this one. Maybe in lore it was secondary but when you have variants like the D-DC and S around, that left side is important. Granted boosting the AC20 side would help balance it out which is why I like boosting the AC20.

As for the K, it does not need Gauss quirks, it needs general ballistic quirks or some sort of quirk that prevents the Gauss from exploding.

the trend, is currently, to buff the stock weapon. The Gauss is the primary weapon of the K. The increased armor and structure should do well to keep it intact longer. But the point is to encourage it's use, otherwise it's just a worse AS7-D or RS.

As for the Missiles, if you quirk all the offense, you cannot justify extensive defensive quirks. Without stupid levels of quirking, it's not going to outgun a DireWolf or King Crab, so IMO, it's a waste to try. Make it different, focus on it's defense.

[FearNotDeath]

One of my biggest peeves with the Atlas was I couldn't aim up and down far enough (based on torso) on slopes. Would also like them to have a buff when using an XL that would make it work like a clan engine(not die on loss of a side torso.) Those should speed up the chassis enough to its own in close and dictate the pace of the fight.

[Mavairo]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

I think that the "signature" feature of an Atlas is supposed to be it's toughness. Not it's firepower, as it was always outgunned in by other mechs in Lore, (it's effective at all range loadout meant it was never hitting as hard as more specialized machines). It should be a Tank.

Correction. It should be THE TANK.

Not hiding in the back with ECM lobbing LRMs, etc. But absolutely the point of the spear, breaking formations and soaking damage...and then soaking some more. It Might not outgun a Dire Wolf, but it should be able to go toe to toe and hold it's undivided attention for a good long time. The Atlas in MWO is NOT the mech that General DeChavilier stormed the Usurper's Palace with.

To do that?

1) Forget the stupid weapon buffs. Only one system should get buffed, and that is it's RT ballistic, as that's it's primary gun. That should get a dang hard buff almost to HBK-4G levels on the AS7-D. And then probably minimal or none on the AS7D-DC and AS7-S. Forget the stupid velocity buffs, laser buffs, etc. Focus solely on cooldown, so that it can use that gun more before it loses it's torso.

So something like:

ALL Atlases:
-Ballistics Cooldown: 20%
AS7-D
-AC/20 Cooldown: 20%
AS7-D-DC
-No extra cooldown
AS7-K
-Gauss Cooldown: 20%
AS7-RS
-AC/10 Cooldown: 20%
AS7-S
-AC/20 Cooldown: 10%
Boars Head
-AC/10 Cooldown: 10%, Energy Heat Generation: -10%, Medium Laser Family Heat Generation: -10%

The D-DC has ECM, which is already huge, and so I don't think it needs more weapon incentives, whereas now one has a reason to consider using other models, offensively.

The Boars Head gets a little more varied, one to differentiate it from the RS, but also because it has a much more limited number of Ballistics and Missiles Slots compared to the others. It's a brawler and needs to be able to use those lasers freely.

And really, offensively? That's it. Why?

2) Because I want it ALL about the defense. Soak that damage. The King Crab is the offensive juggernaut for the IS. The Atlas needs to be the unstoppable avatar of death.

All Atlases:
-Additional Structure (CT): 10 pts.
-Additional Structure (RT): 20 pts.
-Additional Structure (LT): 20 pts.
-Additional Armor (CT): 15 pts
-Additional Armor (RT): 20 pts
-Additional Armor (LT): 20 pts

AS7-K and Boars Head:
Additional Structure (RT/LT): 10 pts

As simple as it gets. Based it off a combined idea from the HBK's RT, the AWS and the Zeus. CT is already pretty solid. But really buffing the STs means that it now isn't disarmed the moment it gets focused by a DWF. I'm even for giving the 7K and BH more ST to encourage their use with Gauss and even give it SOME small change of the XL being viable, comparably, instead of the insta-death it is now. Yeah, it still is a risk, but with the increased firepower, the offensive/defensive risk reward ratio might justify it for some players and builds.

*Edit: "From the Peanut Gallery" (Ideas taken from responses)
Acceleration speed +30%
Deceleration speed +30%
Upper torso twist rate +30%


And it should be noted, I would even be willing to give up ANY Weapons quirks just to see the thing made tough as nails.

Perhaps the numbers are not perfect, and would need tweaking, but there it is, as simple, and ugly and brutal as Kerensky envisioned the Atlas when he commissioned it:

“ A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally. ”

Yes. YES YES.

I should never be in my Battlemaster go "oh it's an Atlas. *yawn* time to show you what a decent mech is like....you poor *******." or for that matter be in a TDR and not have even a trickle of fear, like I do when I see a DWF or stalker on the other side of the corner I just rounded.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

the trend, is currently, to buff the stock weapon. The Gauss is the primary weapon of the K. The increased armor and structure should do well to keep it intact longer. But the point is to encourage it's use, otherwise it's just a worse AS7-D or RS.

Not all do, some are more general, as the case needs to be with the K unless it can get quirks to prevent Gauss explosions, the K just needs to have the faster recycle out of the group. It also needs a second missile point because it loses 2 HP for that one extra AMS HP but we know that isn't ever going to happen even though it really is a simple XML edit since the resources already exist.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

As for the Missiles, if you quirk all the offense, you cannot justify extensive defensive quirks. Without stupid levels of quirking, it's not going to outgun a DireWolf or King Crab, so IMO, it's a waste to try. Make it different, focus on it's defense.

If they did quirks for missiles, it would be in place of the AC20 quirks, since it definitely needs all the defensive quirks it can stack. Not saying it necessarily should, just wanted to point out 2 of the best Atlas variants rely more on the firepower of their missiles than AC20s.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 20 March 2015 - 10:42 PM.