168 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Yeah, mechs getting rescaled is NOT going to happen, sadly, this is a given. It would be nice, but no, it's just a symptom of one of my longest running and biggest gripes with PGI...modeling inconsistency.

Yeah, i know, but it still neds to be said every time in hope they listen.

Quote

You gonn alook at the PPCs on the FS9 as are and tell me those remotely adhere to the rule of cool?

I think the Zeus PPCs are a in a good place right now.

Wouldn't be much larger for Panther, but you'd certainly see some difference on the FS9.

[Kristov Kerensky]

SethAbercromby, on 29 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

So... What about Lights like the Panter then, which didn't have a very large PPC mount in TT images. Even in Artwork, the scaling is sometimes off for rule of cool, but you have to consider with the skewed scaling in MWO, a lot of weapons are much bigger than they'd need to be on the bigger 'Mechs as well.

What you don't see in that TRO artwork of the Panther is that it's NOT the short little Mech we have in MWO, it's around 12m tall, same height as a Catapult, it's just slimmer, so the PPC barrel is actually scaled better than you'd think.

This is an issue where PGI went with a scale based on Class name, not on the actual TT specs thing. Atlas is 15m tall, one of the very tallest of Mechs in BTech, and until after the Clan Invasion, THE tallest for a long time. The Locust is rather tall in BTech, 12m, the Commando is 11m, they are NOT half the height of an Atlas, they are 2/3rds it's height, they should hit at it's armpits, not it's waist line. But trying to get the LCD crowd, which happens to be the majority of the playerbase, Lights being as big as an Assault, wtbf man, that is NOT not right, it's a LIGHT! So PGI went with the Lights are little and Assault are huge and everything else is somewhere inbetween. TRO artwork is based on the imagination of the artist, lots of it was artwork bought BEFORE they had the Mech actually designed, so...

Choppah, on 29 March 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Just to throw a wrench in everything: Would the new smaller sized weapons be okay if the mechs were scaled down to their TT proportions? Anyone decent at photoshop want to give it a try?

Maybe weapon size normalization is a precursor to a change of mech scaling so mediums won't be as tall as assaults.

By their TT proportions, the weapons would still be wrong in scaling. Jagermech for example, the artwork in the TROs clearly shows MUCH more massive guns in those arms, and the Jager in MWO isn't too much larger than it should be by TT proportions, scaling it down to it's TT size of 12m wouldn't make those little guns as large as they should be, it would just make them slightly less silly looking, which would still be silly looking.

I think Bishop has the right of it, his scaling on them looks good, it's just SLIGHTLY silly large on the Lights, but that really looks cool as hell. Slightly oversized weapons just have a more menacing look and that's always to be desired in a video game. This isn't MIB, no one wants a Noisy Cricket looking gun, they want a BFG from Doom, even if both do the same thing, the LOOK is important.

And as a Light pilot myself when I'm not in Assaults, I'm good with the hitbox issue that would occur, there SHOULD be some drawback to using a weapon that's a significant proportion of my Mech's total weight after all. And it just LOOKS SO DAMN COOL! Besides, it's not like anyone will hit it, come on, I'm in a Raven or a Panther, everyone knows they can't hit me anyway

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

This is an issue where PGI went with a scale based on Class name, not on the actual TT specs thing. Atlas is 15m tall, one of the very tallest of Mechs in BTech, and until after the Clan Invasion, THE tallest for a long time. The Locust is rather tall in BTech, 12m, the Commando is 11m, they are NOT half the height of an Atlas, they are 2/3rds it's height, they should hit at it's armpits, not it's waist line. But trying to get the LCD crowd, which happens to be the majority of the playerbase, Lights being as big as an Assault, wtbf man, that is NOT not right, it's a LIGHT! So PGI went with the Lights are little and Assault are huge and everything else is somewhere inbetween. TRO artwork is based on the imagination of the artist, lots of it was artwork bought BEFORE they had the Mech actually designed, so...

Gotta correct one thing (sorry).

In lore, according to Herb Beas, the Battletech line developer at CGL, the tallest (traditional, 20-100 tonner) humanoid mech is just about 14 meters. The shortest, (probably the Urbanmech) is about 8 meters. Obviously long bodied chicken walkers and quads can mess this scale up (and one reason the Dire Wolf is short).

The tallest 3025 Mech was the Banshee. The Atlas was the heaviest, but never the tallest, as it's very broad shouldered and stout, and before the MW video game titles, was about 12 to 12.5 meters. The average mech was about 10 meters, with, as you noted a lot of the difference being in girth. That and doubled weight never equals doubled volume. (only way a 100 ton mech is twice as tall as a 50 tonner is if it stays the same width and depth as the 50 tonner in the process, if density is assumed to be largely consistent...which on war machines, it would be)

The tallest on record that I am aware of it the Executioner.

[oldradagast]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Megaman or bust.

(Locust mockup looks even more wicked, IMHO)

Glad I'm not the only who immediately thought of the classic Blue Bomber when he saw the Firestarter with the huge arm cannon.

Personally, I'd rather have them look closer to having HUGE guns. When a mech is mounting a single weapon that is absurd for its chassis, it should look a bit insane / absurd. It's more realistic, but it also just looks cool and flat-out tells the enemy, "yes, I'm nuts - now you die!"

[Bishop Steiner]

oldradagast, on 29 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Glad I'm not the only who immediately thought of the classic Blue Bomber when he saw the Firestarter with the huge arm cannon.

Personally, I'd rather have them look closer to having HUGE guns. When a mech is mounting a single weapon that is absurd for its chassis, it should look a bit insane / absurd. It's more realistic, but it also just looks cool and flat-out tells the enemy, "yes, I'm nuts - now you die!"

Considering that Battletech was to bring traditional Anime and Western Wargame together, yeah, I want' SOME of that visual pizazz that made us all anime fans back in the day in the first place...without having to go to the "compensating for something" sizes modern kiddi-junk anime seems to embrace.

Remember when anime actually had good art and plots...like Venus Wars, the original Macross, Appleseed, Yamato, Wings of Honneamise, etc? (You still see some who blend the old, with the new, like Apples Sed Deus ex machina, but it seems the exception.

*sigh*

[stjobe]

E Rommel, on 29 March 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

To be fair, our 'mechs internal structures (which represent their entire musculoskeletal system) are only 10% of their body weight, 5% with endo-steel. Unless we decide to do some creative accounting, and say that part of the engine's weight is the myomer fibers that it drives.

I'm sure the human musculoskeletal system is significantly more than 5% of their body weight.

Skeleton is 15% of total body weight, and musculature is 20-30% (source).

Our skin is about 8% of our total body weight, whereas the armour of a 'mech is about 20% of its total weight.

E Rommel, on 29 March 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Of course, that also gets into messy territory comparison-wise because counting a mounted gun as part of the total "body weight" would be like weighing me with my IOTV and M16/M4 and then calculating the gun's percentage of my "body weight". Or weighing the squad's SAW gunner with his weapons and ammo.

Though looking at it that way, technically only the internal structure is the actual mech's "body", everything else is carried equipment. Meaning a mech can carry 10 times its weight in gear, 20 times if it's running endo-steel. Impressive.

Hmm, which looking at it that way, the numbers definitely make more sense if you assume the weight of the myomer bundles is included in the engine, not the structure.

Whether the weight of the Internal Structure includes not only the foamed aluminium or endomorphic steel structure, but the myomers (and let's not forget the actuators) isn't well-defined in the BattleTech rules. In fact, it isn't well-defined that the myomers and actuators weigh anything at all.

Seeing as you can change standard IS to endo-steel IS and save 50% weight, either endo-steel is *really* light, or the weight of the myomers and actuators are included somewhere else.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 29 March 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Skeleton is 15% of total body weight, and musculature is 20-30% (source).

Our skin is about 8% of our total body weight, whereas the armour of a 'mech is about 20% of its total weight.


Whether the weight of the Internal Structure includes not only the foamed aluminium or endomorphic steel structure, but the myomers (and let's not forget the actuators) isn't well-defined in the BattleTech rules. In fact, it isn't well-defined that the myomers and actuators weigh anything at all.

Seeing as you can change standard IS to endo-steel IS and save 50% weight, either endo-steel is *really* light, or the weight of the myomers and actuators are included somewhere else.

I think it' pretty well assumed the Internal Structure blanket covers your myomers and actuators. It's just ultra simplified for expedience, as having to subtract weight for missing actuators would probably have made construction annoying. ( i made house rules just for that at one point)

[Telmasa]

Oh man, the screenies of the light mechs w/ properly large heavy weaponry - THAT is how it should be, if a light mech is toting a heavy weapon I should be able to tell even from a long distance away (and not only when I get shot at).

And totally agree that that larger size should be applied to all mechs, too.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bishop, sorry, but Herb didn't even get into BTech until 1990, he sure didn't have anything to do with the scale of Mechs in the old original TROs, and I'm not really a fan of CBT, the rescaling they did is something I don't like, especially since so much of it was based on MW4's scale which was something of a LCD thing. My original 3025 TRO stated the Atlas was 15m tall, tallest Mech on the battlefield as of 3025, and that was by direct order of Aleksandr Kerensky. The Sarna fluff is based on the revised TRO's, some things were dropped, changed, etc. The Atlas always stuck out in my mind due to that bit about it's height, not a real common thing in the TROs to list the height of a Mech. Wish I still had those original TROs, sadly I don't though, ex decided that the boxes I had them packed in were trash when I wasn't home. She WAS very apologetic about it once we realized the mistake, but by that time, no way to really replace them, that was 2004, seems to be rather hard to find the original editions, even the local bookstores and game shops here that specialize in old out of print stuff can't find them. And yes, I still look for them to this day whenever I hit a garage sale and constantly search the used bookstores in town for them.

Some of that old original FASA TRO artwork, the scale of things is off, sometimes because the artist did the artwork BEFORE the Mech was even designed, FASA liked it, bought it, built a Mech around the art. Other times, well, it was art of giant stompy robots from the 80s by American artists who were using Japanese artwork as their baseline, so...ya gets what ya gets.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 March 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Bishop, sorry, but Herb didn't even get into BTech until 1990, he sure didn't have anything to do with the scale of Mechs in the old original TROs, and I'm not really a fan of CBT, the rescaling they did is something I don't like, especially since so much of it was based on MW4's scale which was something of a LCD thing. My original 3025 TRO stated the Atlas was 15m tall, tallest Mech on the battlefield as of 3025, and that was by direct order of Aleksandr Kerensky. The Sarna fluff is based on the revised TRO's, some things were dropped, changed, etc. The Atlas always stuck out in my mind due to that bit about it's height, not a real common thing in the TROs to list the height of a Mech. Wish I still had those original TROs, sadly I don't though, ex decided that the boxes I had them packed in were trash when I wasn't home. She WAS very apologetic about it once we realized the mistake, but by that time, no way to really replace them, that was 2004, seems to be rather hard to find the original editions, even the local bookstores and game shops here that specialize in old out of print stuff can't find them. And yes, I still look for them to this day whenever I hit a garage sale and constantly search the used bookstores in town for them.

Some of that old original FASA TRO artwork, the scale of things is off, sometimes because the artist did the artwork BEFORE the Mech was even designed, FASA liked it, bought it, built a Mech around the art. Other times, well, it was art of giant stompy robots from the 80s by American artists who were using Japanese artwork as their baseline, so...ya gets what ya gets.

Dude. I have the first edition, first print of the TRO 3025, complete with unseen. (sadly in a 3 ring binder as the spine disintegrated long ago. It's the copy I bought in 1987. I still have all the first edition books, even varying states of disrepair. That's when the fluff was at it's best) The Atlas is not listed at 15 meters, and in fact in the description it even says "Though some 'Mechs might be taller and heavier, none have the Atlas' aura"

in fact, here's the entirety of the text:

Spoiler

Overview
The sight of BattleMechs lumbering across the terrain is a familiar one among the worlds of the Inner Sphere. Nevertheless, the sight of an AS7-D Atlas still manages to make even experienced MechWarriors break out in a sweat and brings the bitter taste of bile to their mouths.

The Atlas was designed as a last-ditch attempt to ensure the superiority of the Star League's Regular Army over the growing armies of the House Lords. It was an understandable reaction to the Cameron edicts passed from 2751 to 2761 by the High Council, which permitted the five Lords to double the size of their personal armies. General Kerensky himself set down the specifications for the Atlas. He said it should be "a 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally."

Capabilities
Ugly and foreboding are two apt descriptions for the Atlas. Though some 'Mechs might be taller and heavier, none have the Atlas' aura. Considerable effort went into making the Atlas' weapons as visible as possible, giving an opposing MechWarrior plenty of opportunity to see that he is outgunned and to decide he is not being paid enough to die. Designers spent an entire year fashioning the head and cockpit to create a perfect merging of function and gruesomeness. The result was a complete success, and so MechWarriors nicknamed the Atlas "Death's Head".

The Atlas was the first 'Mech to mount such a large and devastating autocannon. Even though it carries only ten rounds for its Class 20 AC, the mere threat of such a large autocannon is often enough to send some 'Mechs scurrying. The weapon's only problem is that it lacks a cooling jacket and can overheat easily.

The Atlas' long-range missile delivery system is a unique design. Upon discovering that 20 launching tubes would not fit into the 'Mech's torso, the designers decided to install five tubes with a feed system that can shoot four salvos within ten seconds. The feed system is fairly reliable, and Techs need only worry about shielding the ammo from heat emitted from the nearby reactor. Reloading is quick, as each missile tube system has its own ammunition clip. Completely loaded, the missile system can shoot twelve salvos of 20 missiles. The large aperture between the two missile systems may look like another weapon, but it is the omnicoupling, where power and coolant cables can be attached to start up or repair the Atlas.

The 'Mech's armor is thick, and the forward torso and legs are especially well protected. Someone once calculated that if a battalion of Stinger 'Mechs engaged an Atlas, the Atlas would retire for repairs an hour later, leaving only one Stinger still able to move.

The head is roomy enough to support a small disk antenna, giving the Atlas limited surface-to-space communications. When entering battle, the pilot can fold up the antenna and stow it in a protected portion of the Atlas' head.

The three medium lasers and short-range missiles make the 'Mech a good close-range fighter, while its internal structure gives the arms and hands enormous power. This has created many horror stories concerning Atlases and their ability to pick-up medium-sized 'Mechs with one hand and fling them to the ground as though they were mere toys.

The main drawback of the Atlas is its slow speed. Intelligent opponents will retreat before the forbidding machine, hoping either to draw it into tight quarters, such as a city or woods, or sucker it into water or mud. Once there, the Atlas' lack of mobility is compounded. If a company depends on an Atlas for fire support, then a wily enemy will hit and run, hoping to draw the swifter 'Mechs away from the slow Atlas.

Battle History
The Atlas was first used against Stefan the Usurper. In the final battles to gain control of Earth's major spaceports, the Atlas was instrumental in securing beachheads to allow troops to land safely.

General Kerensky's second-in-command, General DeChavilier, spearheaded the final assault on the Usurper's last stronghold, the Imperial City. He continually exposed his Atlas to enemy fire, yet marched on as if the laser bolts, missiles, and cannon shells were nothing more than the annoying buzz of flies. When DeChavilier's Atlas pushed over the concrete outer wall surrounding the Imperial Palace, Kerensky headed for the Usurper's palace gates in his Orion.

Considering the Atlas' raw power, it is no wonder that Kerensky wanted all Atlases to accompany him into his self-imposed exile. Oddly, more than two-thirds of the pilots who refused to join him were Atlas pilots. Perhaps they felt that they could better their social standing by remaining in the Inner Sphere. The remaining Atlases and those still being produced on Hesperus and Quentin continue to inspire terror wherever they tread.

Known Variants
With the passing years, it has become difficult to replace many Atlas parts, as most supplies have been destroyed or exhausted. The Atlas can use slightly different weapon designs, but they invariably decrease the size of the 'Mech's interior.

As for modifications, few Successor Lords have tried to tamper with success. Some have replaced the medium lasers on the 'Mech's hands with large lasers. This variant is only moderately successful, however, as the new lasers are unreliable when tied into the already-taxed battle computer.

Notable 'Mechs and Mechwarriors
MechWarrior Rodney Van Kleven
A member of the elite 6th Syrtis Fusiliers, Rodney Van Kleven is an aristocrat with the instincts of a democrat. Extremely personable, he is well-liked by everyone from fellow MechWarriors to the lowliest ship's cook.

On the battlefield, Van Kleven uses his Atlas, which he calls the Boar's Head, like a 100 ton scout. He stomps all over the field, creating general terror in the enemy lines and almost always overheating his 'Mech. He has won several land grants, but quickly loses the titles when his 'Mech overheats and shuts down on the battlefield.

General of the Army Vasily Cherenkoff
Commander of Lord Kurita's forces, Cherenkoff's Atlas is seldom in the vicinity of a raging battle. Preferring to park his red Atlas next to a mobile HQ, he uses it only in an emergency or when inspecting troops. The general is as abrasive as he is fat. The current joke among his troops is that the Atlas is the only 'Mech that can carry his weight, and that even its leg actuators groan under the strain.

And that's ignoring the fact that CGL and CBT are the license holders and they, not us, decide what is "official and canon" or not.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 March 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Dude. I have the first edition, first print of the TRO 3025 [...] The Atlas is not listed at 15 meters

Yup. Just checked my copy of the original TRO:3025. No height listed.

A few interesting things were though:
* "Some 'mechs" are taller and heavier than the Atlas.
* The LRM20 fires four salvos of five missiles since they couldn't fit more than five tubes. How's that for "variable geometry", PGI?

[PappySmurf]

I don't know OP I think the weapons and mechs in MWO look to Mecha unrealistic animation as it is there not very realistic looking with small or big weapons.

Hawken has some god awful looking mechs but they look more realistic inside and out..And the weapons look more realistic.

Edited by PappySmurf, 29 March 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[PappySmurf]

The MWO designer needs to make the MWO mechs look more realistic.
Its 2015 for gods sake not 2002 Flying DUDE!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by PappySmurf, 29 March 2015 - 11:32 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Huh, where the hell did I get that from I wonder? Could have sworn it was my TRO, maybe it was a novel, damn, I stand corrected sir!

And I know the license holders get to decide what's canon or not, doesn't mean I'm gonna like it

I still say your scaling is awesome and should be used, PGI should bust some ass and make that happen ASAP!

Sorry Pappy Smurf, but...what the effing hell? Mechs composed of trash? Are you serious? I tried Hawken when it was new, it was fun, sorta, way too much like CoD for my tastes. Nothing wrong with CoD btw, it's just not my thing, except the Zombies, that I can play all day long.

The looks of the Hawken bots was just something I didn't get into, they look like walking heaps of trash, not like precision instruments of death and destruction.

[PappySmurf]

The looks of the Hawken bots was just something I didn't get into, they look like walking heaps of trash, not like precision instruments of death and destruction.


Kristov I agree the Hawken mech designs could have been more sleek and cool.But dam dude you have to agree there level of detail and realistic looking weapons and cockpit design it awesome.Plus the game is now more like playing MWO with way better game modes.

Edited by PappySmurf, 29 March 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

PappySmurf, on 29 March 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

The MWO designer needs to make the MWO mechs look more realistic.
Its 2015 for gods sake not 2002 Flying DUDE!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know man, I never found Hawken mechs realistic at all. They look NOTHING like actual military equipment would look like.
They're terribly over-designed and cluttered, and don't get my started with their C-class (Heavy) mechs with their tiny legs and giant metal plates on their backs.

[Johnny Z]

PappySmurf, on 29 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

I don't know OP I think the weapons and mechs in MWO look to Mecha unrealistic animation as it is there not very realistic looking with small or big weapons.

Hawken has some god awful looking mechs but they look more realistic inside and out..And the weapons look more realistic.

After my centurian hit that with its ac 20 the clean up would have to be done with a vacuume.

[PappySmurf]

Juodas (I don't know man, I never found Hawken mechs realistic at all. They look NOTHING like actual military equipment would look like.
They're terribly over-designed and cluttered, and don't get my started with their C-class (Heavy) mechs with their tiny legs and giant metal plates on their backs. )


If Flying Dude could take the MWO mech designs and make them as detailed and realistic looking as Hawken Mechs WOW it would just be totally awesome.Its all in the fine details.MWO mechs hardly look more advanced than the 2002 MechWarrior4 Mercenaries mechs.

Some of the Mektek mechs have more detail than the MWO mechs have.

Edited by PappySmurf, 29 March 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

PappySmurf, on 29 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Juodas (I don't know man, I never found Hawken mechs realistic at all. They look NOTHING like actual military equipment would look like.
They're terribly over-designed and cluttered, and don't get my started with their C-class (Heavy) mechs with their tiny legs and giant metal plates on their backs. )


If Flying Dude could take the MWO mech designs and make them as detailed and realistic looking as Hawken Mechs WOW it would just be totally awesome.Its all in the fine details.MWO mechs hardly look more advanced than the 2002 MechWarrior4 Mercenaries mechs.

Some of the Mektek mechs have more detail than the MWO mechs have.

Are you sure we're playing the same game?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Pappy, I don't recall the bots in Hawken actually having all that detail ingame, and I had everything cranked to max for visuals, they just didn't look like that.

Sure, PGI COULD make the Mechs a lot more detailed, that's possible, not easy mind you, but quite possible. My old Mech models I built in 3dMax Studios were that detailed, and they were also many millions of polys, which made them totally unusable for anything but the artwork I did. Concept art, like that gray Hawken bot, that is NOT what you put into the game, that's just a PR piece..'look how awesomely complicated this thing is!'..

Also another problem I had with Hawken, WAY too amateur looking cockpit assembly, which makes sense since they are just walking heaps of trash I suppose.

And I have to ask as well, what game are you playing that the Mechs in MWO look even remotely like the Mechs from any other MW game? You sure you got your visual settings up beyond lowest possible? I play with everything but Motion Blur enabled and maxed out, my Mechs do NOT look anything like MW4.