124 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Tycho von Gagern, on 01 April 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

I think it will be a good place for good solos. A good solo pilot can totally carry 3 mediocre --or even poorly skilled-- teammates against a single enemy lance. In the 12v12 PUGs, this is rarely possible.

On the other hand, players without those solo skills (I believe that in terms of both build-technique and play-style, being good in a group is sort of different from being good solo) are going to have a harder time of it. Even if they allow 4-man premades into 4v4, I still think good solos will find in 4v4 a place to shine (at least a little more brightly than in 12v12).

I'm looking forward to it, myself, and might even give up PUGing 12v12 all together when it drops.

2/3/4-mans and good solo players will own 4x4 at the expense of the unskilled solo players, the very same ones who clamored for 4x4 not knowing what they were asking for. As such, the backlash will be extremely loud. It will sound very much like history repeating itself.

Edited by Mystere, 02 April 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[HARDKOR]

kamiko kross, on 01 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

You utterly and completely missed my point. I agree with YOU numpty.
However, we have to admit the average player has changed and we are not going to win.The very fact we have a chuggin' SOLO mode in a multiplayer team game should ring alarm bells in your head.
Just read what some of the prosolos actually say, some of it defies any reasoned logic. Yet, here we are.

QFT = Quoted for truth, as in, please reread what this guy said, cuz it's spot on.

[Screech]

Tycho von Gagern, on 01 April 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

I think it will be a good place for good solos. A good solo pilot can totally carry 3 mediocre --or even poorly skilled-- teammates against a single enemy lance.

Only if the other lance has only 1 good pilot on it as well. But when you get placed against a lance of players who average between 2-3k damage per pilot in a normal CW match...

ggclose

It will be a shark tank so just make sure the blood in the water is not yours.

[HARDKOR]

Mystere, on 01 April 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

2/3/4-mans and good solo players will own 4x4 at the expense of the unskilled solo players, the very same ones who clamored for 4x4 not knowing what they were asking for. As such, the backlash will be extremely loud. It will sounds very much like history repeating itself.

This is true of any game type. What we have is a cultural problem, where people feel entitled to be either e good at everything or to be shielded from the consequences of their failures. They want maximum reward with minimal effort.

Screech, on 01 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Only if the other lance has only 1 good pilot on it as well. But when you get placed against a lance of players who average between 2-3k damage per pilot in a normal CW match...

ggclose

It will be a shark tank so just make sure the blood in the water is not yours.

There's probably less than 100 of those 2-3k players out there right now. People just attach too much significance to their losses and exaggerate how often it happens to them.

[SethAbercromby]

Tycho von Gagern, on 01 April 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

I believe that in terms of both build-technique and play-style, being good in a group is sort of different from being good solo

This right here. I expect myself to be a pretty mediocre 4x4 player.

My build and play style is firmly rooted around a support role, though I tend to be way more agressive than needed sometimes. I assume that mode will help me iron out flaws in my personal play rather than being a signal-booster for everyone else, but a newcomer doesn't know his personal flaws. They drop in expecting an easy match and will get slaughtered.

And sure, there is some truth to one player being able to pull the trest, is that what they came for though? It reminds me of the old "I'm having fun" joke picture people used to post every now and then, just that it would become an actual reality. 3 newcomers on a 12-man team are unlucky, but you can still see other people trying to pull their weight and you at least feel you went down fighting, despite possibly getting caught up in a stomp. 3 newcomers on a 4 man team must be outright frustrating to that one other person.

By the end of the day, we play to win. If we play and end up losing, well it happens. If we win without playing we feel like we didn't accomplish much. If we lose without being able to play, we feel cheated. So in the end, we just want to play.

[operatorZ]

kamiko kross, on 01 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

You utterly and completely missed my point. I agree with YOU numpty.
However, we have to admit the average player has changed and we are not going to win.The very fact we have a chuggin' SOLO mode in a multiplayer team game should ring alarm bells in your head.
Just read what some of the prosolos actually say, some of it defies any reasoned logic. Yet, here we are.

F*ckin A right solo mode...best move ever made. As a veteran of WOT and WOwarplanes....not having a viable solo mode to train up new pilots and provide a base population is what kills those games and creates a true toxic environment.

Welcome to reality...the reality of most gamers not being "HARDCORE" .....enjoy your stay....

[Navy Sixes]

Tycho von Gagern, on 01 April 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

I think it will be a good place for good solos. A good solo pilot can totally carry 3 mediocre --or even poorly skilled-- teammates against a single enemy lance. In the 12v12 PUGs, this is rarely possible.

I'm quoting myself, here --which feels kind of lame-- but I wanted to elaborate on this idea, especially in regard to solos vs. groups in 4v4.

Everyone who plays MW:O knows that teamwork is, in fact, OP. While dedicated solo players enjoy personal accomplishment in the PUGs, the telltale sign you're dropping with a solid solo player is that they're the ones trying to get their PUG company to coordinate along some kind of plan from the beginning. This is ridiculously difficult with 12 teammates of wildly different skill levels. Against a 12-man premade? Well, you read the forums.

But in 4v4, it may be a lot easier to get the other three lance-mates on the same page, figure out what kind of build everyone is bringing to the party, and figure out how to proceed. In short, PUG teamwork might improve, if only because there will be less ducks to put in a row.

Also, in terms of team skill, if you're a good pilot, and you've got another good pilot dropping with you, that's half your unit.
We won't know for sure how this plays out until 4v4 is open, but off-hand I'll say I like those odds. I think you're much more likely to get one other competent pilot dropping with you in a 4-man PUG lance than to get 5 other competent pilots dropping with you in a 12-man PUG company.

[Red Legs Greaves]

operatorZ, on 01 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

F*ckin A right solo mode...best move ever made. As a veteran of WOT and WOwarplanes....not having a viable solo mode to train up new pilots and provide a base population is what kills those games and creates a true toxic environment.

Welcome to reality...the reality of most gamers not being "HARDCORE" .....enjoy your stay....

I agree, if I was a new player and had only the option to jump into CW I probably would go find a new game. I've been playing for quite awhile, am an above average player and I get put off by some of the stuff said and bad attitudes of some people in CW. The solo queue is the only thing keeping fresh blood in this game. It gives the new player a chance to get a grasp of the game and build up some confidence. They then go in their first CW drop get that confidence destroyed by a premade and hopefully go join a unit. They get better and can contribute to their unit and enrich CW.

[Jon Gotham]

operatorZ, on 01 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

F*ckin A right solo mode...best move ever made. As a veteran of WOT and WOwarplanes....not having a viable solo mode to train up new pilots and provide a base population is what kills those games and creates a true toxic environment.

Welcome to reality...the reality of most gamers not being "HARDCORE" .....enjoy your stay....

That's just it-I'm not.
Solo mode only trains people to play solo. It is useless for when they need to work with others. Which actually is 100% of the time in a team game, except of course when you choose to ignore that and drop "solo."-even though you are not actually solo...
Even your precious "solo mode" is actually a TEAM game-if you would choose to embrace it. Which I see the majority don't.
Working with other people and talking to them, making friends is really a positive thing.


And, your definition of hardcore seems WAY off...

I'm a CASUAL gamer:
I like to talk to others. (ts is your friend.voip can be too.why so little of it in solo queue?)
I like to group up with friends. (yes that's right, I talk to people and use my friend list)
I like to co operate with other people.(yeps, I expect to have to work with my team mates-because I know I'm not actually EVER solo)
I like tactics and variety. (not just walk and shoot-that needs other people though yeah?)
I like a "bit" of a challenge. (I don't like stomping fresh players AT ALL)
I like to be engaged with my entertainment. (means I like to have to think and try a bit-not just log on and shootzorz)

Now you'd class the above as "hardcore." ALL of the above come from an evil unit player that does dirty CW.
Just what planet are some of you on?
As I said the average player has changed and have become...well....I dunno what to be honest. Some of the poor attitude on display here towards having to learn or co-operate with others I'm glad I don't have to put up with it in real life hobbies too.
The logic dodging beggars belief.

[Red Legs Greaves]

kamiko kross, on 02 April 2015 - 03:29 AM, said:

That's just it-I'm not.
Solo mode only trains people to play solo. It is useless for when they need to work with others. Which actually is 100% of the time in a team game, except of course when you choose to ignore that and drop "solo."-even though you are not actually solo...
Even your precious "solo mode" is actually a TEAM game-if you would choose to embrace it. Which I see the majority don't.
Working with other people and talking to them, making friends is really a positive thing.

Yes making friends is a good, but when you first start playing you just want to learn the mechanics of the game. The tutorial does absolutely nothing to train you to shoot a moving target that also wants to kill you too. Solo mode is necessary, you may not like it but since you have lots of friends you don't have to do it.

[Screech]

HARDKOR, on 01 April 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

There's probably less than 100 of those 2-3k players out there right now. People just attach too much significance to their losses and exaggerate how often it happens to them.

Won't argue numbers but you would have to agree that there way more of these players then there are 12 man boogeymen and you can see their effect on the collective psyche of the community. I imagine that the subsequent reaction to the 4 man to stay proportional to the increase in occurrences. I hope I will be wrong but I would be willing to bet almost anything that I am not.

[Jon Gotham]

Red Legs Greaves, on 02 April 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Yes making friends is a good, but when you first start playing you just want to learn the mechanics of the game. The tutorial does absolutely nothing to train you to shoot a moving target that also wants to kill you too. Solo mode is necessary, you may not like it but since you have lots of friends you don't have to do it.

I disagree. What is needed is a good tutorial, with maybe set piece moves in place via AI bots. To teach people what to do and when.
The solo queue teaches you you how to maximize your performance, often at the expense of your own team mates. It reinforces extremely poor habits and poor playstyles.
This is extremely evident when people move into CW (where it is most glaring) or group queue, where co-operation with others is a MUST.
Personally I'd go with much better tutorials.

Solo mode is NOT for new players, they still get farmed by more experienced players-just like in every single other pvp game. It is for those who are not as willing to be more engaged with others or the game, they want to log on and shoot some stuff....nothing more. If you want more than that, you tend to take action. But when that isn't offered on a plate the raging starts.
Lets not dodge the logic-solo queue is not for new players either, a nice solo campaign with cleverly hidden lessons would be ideal though.........

[NotSoCoolJ]

It's totally not solo players that ruin CW. It's people that are terrible at piloting, taking instruction, building mechs, etc. that ruin it. Solo players are fine. I've handed premades their bums with a team full of randoms on more than one occasion. I really wish people would learn to play the game in puglandia and keep their ineptitude out of my LZ.

[That Dawg]

Remember way back when they started the whole solo thing for pugs, no solo player would even see a two man?

that would go a long way to dragging me back now the event is over

[Jon Gotham]

Aye keep hammering away at that solo queue for every mode horn.
Why bother having a buddy list? Or have the ability to form units? If EVERYTHING MUST have a solo only mode, then really what's the point? They could spend the dev time making more and more team solomatch maps! Or churn yet more mechs out for pokemech solos to grind endlessly!
Why bother having lances in your teams? Or having chat functionality at all? Why bother having any social interaction?
solosolosolo all we hear.
Community 10 mins at a time.

---------------------------------------------------------

The above was over dramatic and a tad silly, but the essence of it is true. With so many screaming for solo everything, should the devs waste any more time developing the multiplayer aspect of the game? Perhaps they should get some decent PVE/PVE co-op content up instead? Maybe like ME3 "multiplayer" mode?
They could start issuing some refunds whilst they are at it.

[HARDKOR]

Screech, on 02 April 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Won't argue numbers but you would have to agree that there way more of these players then there are 12 man boogeymen and you can see their effect on the collective psyche of the community. I imagine that the subsequent reaction to the 4 man to stay proportional to the increase in occurrences. I hope I will be wrong but I would be willing to bet almost anything that I am not.

With 4 vs 4 the truly teamless are going to get rolled by four times as many teams, because a big unit could drop 20 of these into the cue and small units could still field 1-4 lances, all of which will mop the floor with the noobs that refuse to join teams. Add in the elite pilots that can carry three noobs and you have a recipe for dead noobs floating in a sea of tears.

Just because this game is mostly noobs, doesn't mean it should be built for them. Solo players are mostly trolling game overall game quality for all the people who have been playing this for 10-20 years. Noobs are why we can't have nice things.

[HARDKOR]

operatorZ, on 01 April 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

Welcome to reality...the reality of most gamers not being "HARDCORE" .....enjoy your stay....

It's MECHWARRIOR, FFS. It's not supposed to be casual. It's been going on for 20 years and is supposed to be a hardcore game. Every other mecha title on the market is for the casual gamer. Please let us have one game that's not made for noobs(even it this one happens to be made BY noobs.)

[oldradagast]

RussianWolf, on 31 March 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

because, most actually don't want to play each other.

When the 8 and 12 man queues were active. You had teams claim that they wanted more competition. But as soon as they were facing better competition and losing, they would come back to the 1-4 queue saying it was only for the uber-competitive teams. They only wanted to win and stomping pugs was better than losing to actual competition.

This is why the Solo queue was established. Now if they want to play as a unit, they can't face the Solo puggers.

In my opinion CW need more than 1 queue and may need exactly what the Public queue has. They will complain about it saying "no, CW is hard mode. L2P or go away" but that actually doesn't work if you want the mode to have decent population.

Exactly.

CW is the land of "real skill" - which is why seal-clubbing hapless PUG's as part of a 12-man is somehow a vital part of that "skill." Same with ghost drops and every other tactic used to avoid real competition.

We've offered suggestions before, and all we get is the same idiotic replies, "Derp, everything is fine - I like having free wins over PUG's - join a team!" As if joining a team, and thus doing the rolling, is somehow more fun and competitive than being rolled. Of course, for the epeeners, winning is all that matters, hence the insane contradiction between "join a team!" and "we need our PUG-stomps!"

If the NFL was run the way CW currently is, Sunday games would consist of anything from 2 pro teams playing against each other to a pro team going up against a few dozen guys pulled from the stands, some of whom may have played football in high school, at best. And we'd be expected to believe that this is fine and is "hard core competitive mode." Right...

[Screech]

HARDKOR, on 04 April 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Noobs are why we can't have nice things.

Lack of players is why we can't have nice things. Blaming new players doesn't really help fix anything. CW is not dying from forum QQ it is dying from lack of players. Which is a shame as it is only mode I really enjoy playing anymore.

[SethAbercromby]

oldradagast, on 04 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Exactly.

CW is the land of "real skill" - which is why seal-clubbing hapless PUG's as part of a 12-man is somehow a vital part of that "skill." Same with ghost drops and every other tactic used to avoid real competition.

We've offered suggestions before, and all we get is the same idiotic replies, "Derp, everything is fine - I like having free wins over PUG's - join a team!" As if joining a team, and thus doing the rolling, is somehow more fun and competitive than being rolled. Of course, for the epeeners, winning is all that matters, hence the insane contradiction between "join a team!" and "we need our PUG-stomps!"

If the NFL was run the way CW currently is, Sunday games would consist of anything from 2 pro teams playing against each other to a pro team going up against a few dozen guys pulled from the stands, some of whom may have played football in high school, at best. And we'd be expected to believe that this is fine and is "hard core competitive mode." Right...

Even if we were to eliminate singles out of the queue, that would mean 11-man groups are again no longer be possible, which can be very annoying with fluctuating numbers in a casual group on a TS hub. Aside from that you'd see much longer wait times for groups, the way CW MM currently operates, it would be simple to get at least 10 people consistently queueing into the same group, defating the purpose.

I agree that something has to change, but it's imo not the solos. A competeive 12-man will curbstomp a casual 12-man. Nerf competeive players? No. What we need is alternate game-modes that help ease newcomers into the game and CW. The current solo-queue, as people have regularly pointed out, currently has the habit of teaching new players very bad habits. These bad habits come to bite them in the ass once they drop into CW. I also think that new players should actively be discuraged from dropping into CW if they have less than 3 personal 'Mechs and/or 100 matches under their belt by the client itself, not just from us in the forums.