109 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Actually it does. Everything is relative!

I know good light pilots. I am not one of them. So yeah it is relative.

[Jman5]

Mcgral18, on 31 March 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

Mind taking a look at your own stats?

Damage divided by matches played....with some borked stats every now and then.

Cute Fox Prime is at 362 damage with 176 drops

Myth Lynx at 368 damage after 87 drops

Ember at 347 damage after 77 drops

FS9-S at 439 damage after 72 drops


Haven't played many lights since the stat reset, those were closer to the 270 mark, with ~500 drops in the Jenners (I've gotten better! Thank you Seismic Wallhack)

The only light I have a good amount of recent games in is the Firestarter 9A (292). Average damage if 404.

[Mawai]

Without a breakdown by mech it is hard to reach a conclusion for certain about your data.

For example, the heavy data could be strongly skewed by Timberwolves if they are actually as OP as folks think. Similarly, stormcrows could play a role in the medium numbers. On the other hand, it could be some of the heavily quirked IS heavies like the TDR-5SS or possibly 9S that are contributing. In general, I don't expect heavies to outperform assaults unless they have both speed and firepower which is exactly where the Timberwolf shines.

Also, assuming the data was collected from the end of round screens you should probably exclude your mech from the statistics.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Cant trust PGI stats, my Wins and Loss do not add up to may matches played, even on brand new mechs.

[Deathlike]

Well, the obvious answer for Lights is that even that "large" 30 pt alpha from 6 med lasers isn't really very fast or efficient... when you have to shoot and then hide/fade.

When you do a much more effective/committed alpha like say in a Hunchback-4P, you are allowed to extend further.

For Lights, it takes quite of bit of "surviving" to get a really good high damage value.


With regards to Assaults, the Dire Wolf is wicked efficient for dealing damage, but most of the other Assaults don't manage that. It has more to do with "speed" getting in and out of battle (Heavies excel at it with their own bit of firepower), which an Assault usually cannot afford to do on its own usually. Additionally... many Assault pilots are exactly good at shooting Lights. That's a different issue within itself. Of course, mech agility is another factor... as heavies tend to have quite a bit of it (like the Timberwolf) whereas Mediums actually need those torso twist boosts to become more effective at the same thing with a generally weaker alpha.

It is what it is though.

[WarZ]

Hey Jman, does it screw up the chart too badly if I posted this game yesterday ?

http://imgur.com/1RLnZwX

[Jman5]

WarZ, on 31 March 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

Hey Jman, does it screw up the chart too badly if I posted this game yesterday ?

http://imgur.com/1RLnZwX

haha holy sh*t! how did you manage that?

Edit: plugged your score in for giggles. Sorry to tell you, but your mighty score barely budged it up.

Edited by Jman5, 31 March 2015 - 07:06 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

These are my light stats. They're bad.

COM-3A: 228
RVN-3L: 344
COM-TDK: 276
FS9-A: 319
LCT-1E: 367
ADR-P: 326
KFX-P: 279
MLX-P: 300
PNT-10K: 385 (u w0t m8?)

I also wish it was keeping CW stats. I've been using a Myst Lynx in it and getting about between 5-7 kills.

[WarZ]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

haha holy sh*t! how did you manage that?

Was a brutal knock em down drag em out game, and probably a bit of extra carry power since it looks like 2 of our guys got knocked out early. Was a fun game.

Quote

Edit: plugged your score in for giggles. Sorry to tell you, but your mighty score barely budged it up.

Oh well ... no matter what is said, only so much can be carried, he he.

Edited by WarZ, 31 March 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Deathlike, on 31 March 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Well, the obvious answer for Lights is that even that "large" 30 pt alpha from 6 med lasers isn't really very fast or efficient... when you have to shoot and then hide/fade.

When you do a much more effective/committed alpha like say in a Hunchback-4P, you are allowed to extend further.

For Lights, it takes quite of bit of "surviving" to get a really good high damage value.


With regards to Assaults, the Dire Wolf is wicked efficient for dealing damage, but most of the other Assaults don't manage that. It has more to do with "speed" getting in and out of battle (Heavies excel at it with their own bit of firepower), which an Assault usually cannot afford to do on its own usually. Additionally... many Assault pilots are exactly good at shooting Lights. That's a different issue within itself. Of course, mech agility is another factor... as heavies tend to have quite a bit of it (like the Timberwolf) whereas Mediums actually need those torso twist boosts to become more effective at the same thing with a generally weaker alpha.

It is what it is though.

And milking damage (eg. C-Bills).
Lights kill quickly with little damage, penetrating rear armor or exposed locations.
Lights do not get in protracted fights, or the tonnage to play the range game.
Total damage is not a good metric for effectiveness, especially for light mechs.
Look at kills.

[Y E O N N E]

Kills is not a good metric, either, because you can just score a passing kill. With Lights, the probability of this occurrence should be higher since they can move to engage targets of opportunity much more quickly.

There is no one metric you should use. We should be looking at a combination of metrics and trying to make some correlations. But if you must use one, damage is probably the best one because it's most likely to bring in the money. Even with scouting and assist bonuses, a Light isn't really going to bring home the dough without doing damage.

[Xmith]

Almost half the queue are heavy mechs. So what are you trying to say? There are just more people piloting heavy mechs?

There are more heavy mechs in the queue. That's why the damage numbers are higher.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Xmith, on 31 March 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Almost half the queue are heavy mechs. So what are you trying to say? There are just more people piloting heavy mechs?

There are more heavy mechs in the queue. That's why the damage numbers are higher.

That's not how averages work.

[Jman5]

Xmith, on 31 March 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Almost half the queue are heavy mechs. So what are you trying to say? There are just more people piloting heavy mechs?

There are more heavy mechs in the queue. That's why the damage numbers are higher.

What I'm saying is that the average heavy damage is skewed in relation to the other weight classes. The number of heavies vs other weight classes is irrelevant because I'm recording each player separately taking class averages and using percentages.

Having more heavy data points doesn't automatically make your heavy data higher. Besides, the actual difference in raw numbers between the classes was not that different from one another because MM prevents more than 4 of any one weight class per side in the solo queue.

[Dino Might]

I would venture that the assault damage numbers are much less than heavies for two reasons:

1. A lot of new players will pick assault vs heavy with the idea that assaults are inherently better - this is not helped by a lot of people on the forums continually crying that assaults should be better than every other class. This is probably not very significant in and of itself.

2. Assaults get called and focused down faster because they are the most dangerous (or at least appear so - I saw a KGC with an LBX-10 and LRM 15 and nothing else today...who would have guessed). For those vets in large units on TS, when you come up against an opposing lance with a Timby, Grasshopper, Direwolf, and Stormcrow, all in plain view in the open, which target do you call to kill first?

I'm hardly surprised at the numbers shown - they are not significantly different than what I would expect.

[Ghogiel]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 31 March 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

That's not how averages work.

Math is hard

[Lynx7725]

Jman5 -- if you can do us a favour, can you plot against match score instead? There have been a number of comments on this, and frankly some of the best light pilots I've had the pleasure to fight with has been those that contribute heavily to team victory, with UAV, flanking, scouting, spotting.. those push up combat scores while often lowering damage scores.

[Jman5]

Dino Might, on 31 March 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

I would venture that the assault damage numbers are much less than heavies for two reasons:

1. A lot of new players will pick assault vs heavy with the idea that assaults are inherently better - this is not helped by a lot of people on the forums continually crying that assaults should be better than every other class. This is probably not very significant in and of itself.

2. Assaults get called and focused down faster because they are the most dangerous (or at least appear so - I saw a KGC with an LBX-10 and LRM 15 and nothing else today...who would have guessed). For those vets in large units on TS, when you come up against an opposing lance with a Timby, Grasshopper, Direwolf, and Stormcrow, all in plain view in the open, which target do you call to kill first?

I'm hardly surprised at the numbers shown - they are not significantly different than what I would expect.

The thought has crossed my mind because I find myself focus firing assaults too. This little exercise has made me think that maybe I should start going out of my way to focus fire heavies instead.

[Ultimax]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

I just thought of another hypothesis. Perhaps the community has simply figured out Heavies to a large extent but there are flaws in how many players tends to build and play the other three classes.

Heavies tend to get the most scrutiny by the competitive scene and that knowledge does eventually permeate into the non-competitive playerbase. It's possible this simply indicates a flaw in conventional wisdom when it comes to building and playing the other weight classes in the solo queue.

Food for thought.

I can tell you that I like a lot of my Assault mechs, but I only enjoy playing them on a team in the team queue.


Playing most of them, except for a few special cases, is often an exercise in frustration in the solo queue.


Everyone expects you to tank everything, lights and mediums regularly hump your legs or your back and prevent you from moving.

Teams wont' commit with you, and often you commit and they ... go somewhere else or hide.

Enemy lights harass you, and your team's mediums and lights almost never respond to it.

Then there is not being suited for a lot of conquest matches, and the NASCAR skirmish matches and...yeah you get the idea.


So I tend to gravitate towards my heavies instead.

They aren't as sturdy, but no one expects you to eat all the bullets or suicide at the front of a push so the rest of the team can score damage.

They're more adaptable to changing situations, they rarely get left behind.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 31 March 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[Jman5]

Lynx7725, on 31 March 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

Jman5 -- if you can do us a favour, can you plot against match score instead? There have been a number of comments on this, and frankly some of the best light pilots I've had the pleasure to fight with has been those that contribute heavily to team victory, with UAV, flanking, scouting, spotting.. those push up combat scores while often lowering damage scores.

I'm not comfortable using match score until I can see what all the score variables are. It used to be relatively simple with +10 for win, +1 per 10 points of damage, +1 for kill/assist. However they seem to have added a bunch of other things. I know with my TAG LRM mech I gets all sorts of crazy high scores from some TAG-based reward I'm reaping. If someone knows where I can figure this out I might see what sort of numbers it leads to.

Edited by Jman5, 31 March 2015 - 08:28 PM.