95 replies to this topic

[sdsnowbum]

OP makes some pretty good points.

Beyond communication factions should also start thinking about organization - if you could get a message to everyone, what should that message be? For example this weekend calls for which planet to queue up for, and which to ignore could have made a big difference.

One surprising thing about all this event craziness is that it showed that solos could be an asset (to counteract the other faction solos if nothing else), so factions should look at ways of utilizing them.

I still wonder - how many factions are using faction chat? I saw a few messages exchanged with Steiner (mostly seeing if anyone was interested in doing something), but nothing anywhere else.

Faction chat seems like the only that everyone will see the message. No teamspeak installation, mic, server hub/password required, just click on the faction button.

[Dawnstealer]

It's because the event happened to coincide with the vast majority of the merc units being in the IS. In a week or two, it'll flip back the other way and the Clans will be "OP."

Fact is, neither faction is OP - but population is.

[Red Legs Greaves]

My small unit has our own TS but recently started using the Dav hub. It has made a world a difference in actually enjoying CW. I can't say our W/L ratio is any better but we usually are able to get a pick up group going and just being able to talk to other people during the waiting mini game is better.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Dawnstealer, on 01 April 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Fact is, neither faction is OP - but population is.

Absolutely, but the fact that I've seen groups that look like PUGs in game turn out to be 12-man-pre-made groups means that you guys are able to form groups better than us. PUGs don't coordinate their tonnage before a game starts, but every group I fought during the event did.
We need to extend the olive branch to our pugs, and like everyone else here who uses hub TS servers know, teamwork is the most OP force in MWO.

[Lanancuras]

Jeesh, uh, am I the only one here that actually wins the majority of his pug vs pug drops?

On more serious talk though; I think both TeamSpeak and VOIP are horribly overrated. I decided to just flat out mute VOIP since from solo public matches I've learned that most of the people using them are raging nerds who like to put all the blame on their team even though in most situations they themselves are to blame. And TeamSpeak is often filled with mundane chatter not related to achieving glorious victory at all.

For most tactics and such, simply using the text based chat works the best in my opinion. I personally vastly prefer it over audio-based forms of communication which seems to be mainly a distraction for me.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Lanancuras, on 01 April 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Jeesh, uh, am I the only one here that actually wins the majority of his pug vs pug drops?

On more serious talk though; I think both TeamSpeak and VOIP are horribly overrated. I decided to just flat out mute VOIP since from solo public matches I've learned that most of the people using them are raging nerds who like to put all the blame on their team even though in most situations they themselves are to blame. And TeamSpeak is often filled with mundane chatter not related to achieving glorious victory at all.

For most tactics and such, simply using the text based chat works the best in my opinion. I personally vastly prefer it over audio-based forms of communication which seems to be mainly a distraction for me.

This relates specifically to CW.
Before the event started, I would be on the winning side about 2/3 of the matches played (and usually with the most damage or at least the top 3) but about 2 days into the event, every pug team I fought against used the same tactics, positioning, mech class, and focus-fire accuracey that I would see from a full single unit tagged 12 man (IE, everyone says [6RNT] or [QQ]) and it wasn't the occasional FRR or Kurita team... it was every pug match after the 27th that they were this organized.

[SethAbercromby]

Lawrence Elsa, on 01 April 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

(we've had spy issues)

I'm sorry, but this right here. I have to ask you an honest question, does it matter that much? I get having locked channels for tournaments or similar competitions, but how many people make the effort of invading a TS channel during a normal CW match to listen in on you guys, while their own command is shoulding orders and somehow relay everything correctly and follow said orders?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm assuming the cons of locked channels outweight the pros by quite a bit for normal CW drops if you are willing to invite PUGs to join you.

[Lawrence Elsa]

SethAbercromby, on 01 April 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm assuming the cons of locked channels outweight the pros by quite a bit for normal CW drops if you are willing to invite PUGs to join you.

While I agree, I am by no means the owner of CWI's servers, and am not even an officer, but I have been around for the last 2 years and have seen how trolls and people with lower standards of ethics can destroy a community. While locking the channels is not the way I would solve the issue, I do think we need something, but what I do not know.

[SethAbercromby]

Lawrence Elsa, on 01 April 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

While I agree, I am by no means the owner of CWI's servers, and am not even an officer, but I have been around for the last 2 years and have seen how trolls and people with lower standards of ethics can destroy a community. While locking the channels is not the way I would solve the issue, I do think we need something, but what I do not know.

It's always unfortunate when some few individuals can spoil the fun for the rest of everyone involved. A possible first stop imo would be a decent selection of channel moderators. That is people with frequent activity in those channles that can help to keep an eye out for disrupting individuals, though a channel password will usually help in keeping most of those out.

I don't know how much of the problem this would solve, of course. I don't know how much an open-channel policy or public space is worth on a Unit-specific channel in terms of coordinating PUGs for CW drops either. A central TS hub for all affiliated units and pugs seems to be the best long-term solution overall, so Strana Mechty would be the best space to set up camp when you guys want to do some casual CW drops with PUGs or mixed units. If you can, give every single pug the ts adress. If just 10% of a hundred people follow it, that's still 10 more people to join units and improve through coordinated play.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Lanancuras, on 01 April 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Jeesh, uh, am I the only one here that actually wins the majority of his pug vs pug drops?

On more serious talk though; I think both TeamSpeak and VOIP are horribly overrated. I decided to just flat out mute VOIP since from solo public matches I've learned that most of the people using them are raging nerds who like to put all the blame on their team even though in most situations they themselves are to blame. And TeamSpeak is often filled with mundane chatter not related to achieving glorious victory at all.

For most tactics and such, simply using the text based chat works the best in my opinion. I personally vastly prefer it over audio-based forms of communication which seems to be mainly a distraction for me.

My opinion is the exact oposite, voip doesn't distract me. i'm leading pushes with it, i'm calling targets, i'm in contact with the scouts. i don't have to stop to typ, i don't have to take my eyes off the actual match to get informations.

Voip > chat

Over all CW games, I had one (1) dude who raged on voip after he had burned his 4th 'mech. muted him, done.

Lawrence Elsa, on 01 April 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

This relates specifically to CW.
Before the event started, I would be on the winning side about 2/3 of the matches played (and usually with the most damage or at least the top 3) but about 2 days into the event, every pug team I fought against used the same tactics, positioning, mech class, and focus-fire accuracey that I would see from a full single unit tagged 12 man (IE, everyone says [6RNT] or [QQ]) and it wasn't the occasional FRR or Kurita team... it was every pug match after the 27th that they were this organized.

^ This. Dropped pugging with other pugs (a lot trails), gave commands and explained from where to build firing lines. called targets which at least 6 of my team focused down. in short -> ppl followed we won.
next game, same pugs on my team. Same deal but they did it more no their own, started to call targets themself.
PUG or new player in general just don't know any better, but they learn as quickly as everybody else.

Edited by LOADED, 01 April 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[sycocys]

To be honest communication with the solo/pugs from the clans is probably one of the biggest issues. Starting with getting people to the hubs to get dropped into matches faster, through the way a lot of folks from the clans represent their factions on the forums - unfortunate reality of having your faction icon below your name if you want to be a ragey troll, you do dissuade part of the population of the game that does come to the forums looking for guidance.

I can tell you though from watching and being a part of the FRR hub that nearly every player that got on, got into a group regardless of what mechs they felt like running or their skill level. And that last part is especially important because it didn't matter to the rest of the team or the commander they simply got these players engaged and having fun in CW.

People were having fun learning and engaging in the game in a way they had never played it before whether they won or lost matches, the teams picking these guys up were making it a good time as well as showing new players the way. This is really important, because this is what keeps players coming back to CW once they learn how much more engaging teamwork is.

[Revis Volek]

SethAbercromby, on 01 April 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but this right here. I have to ask you an honest question, does it matter that much? I get having locked channels for tournaments or similar competitions, but how many people make the effort of invading a TS channel during a normal CW match to listen in on you guys, while their own command is shoulding orders and somehow relay everything correctly and follow said orders?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm assuming the cons of locked channels outweight the pros by quite a bit for normal CW drops if you are willing to invite PUGs to join you.

Not just to listen in, to troll, be a pain, yell over the mic so we cant do what we need to do.

You would be surprised how childish people become when they start to lose.

[Kirito Kerenksy]

DarthRevis, on 01 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Either way, good job insulting someone on a VIDEO GAMES FORUMS about real life things. You sir are the scum of Terra.

Reported

Didn't think about the language barrier, so I apologize to you Lily for assuming you where another one of the hundreds of clanners that type out the first thing that comes to mind without spell-checking or proofreading, and am very sorry if you legitimately had a hard time phrasing your statement.

as for you Revis, Die clanner.

[SethAbercromby]

DarthRevis, on 01 April 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Not just to listen in, to troll, be a pain, yell over the mic so we cant do what we need to do.

You would be surprised how childish people become when they start to lose.

I have Voip enable and running since day one. I've been to the HK TS and currently the FRR TS regularly (the prior doesn't even have a password) and there's been maybe 2 people on voip which couldn't keep their mouths shut and practically none on the hub TS servers. I'm sorry if you somehow got the wrong people, but from my personal experience, I cannot support that claim. Most people rage on chat because they are too embaressed to show people they are just some 12-year olds who mistook this game for CoD. I mock those people on chat for their unsportsmanlike behavior and move on.

[LastKhan]

I wouldnt say its about just comunication. There are loads of problems with CW that needs to be addressed. For example;

- Throwing masses of bodies at a planet and getting wins for ghost drops. Ghost drops happens okay, but having it be a outright win towards a planet isnt right. Possibly making it half a win? or even a quarter win.

- Seperating what is a merc and faction loyalist

- small quirks for clans. etc.

But its beta and i hope these and alot of others i didnt mention will be addressed.

[AnimeFreak40K]

I dunno, it just seems to me that the sudden population influx of people who normally play in the Public Queue made their way into Community Warfare for the event and that had a massive effect on things. Consider the following:

- Due to costs (C-Bills, MC or buying Clan Packs/Mechs from the store), Clan mechs aren't going to be that popular as a general thing. A fair number of players in a couple of units I was part of awhile back either had very few (or no) Clan mechs due to a combination of 'general Clanner hate' (they just hate Clans and are strictly IS players) and lack of funds and/or mechbays (...which is an extension of the lack of money...).
- Clan mechs have a bit of a learning curve to them; they run hot, some areas are very fragile/easily focused, putting together an effective build can be problematic (and/or expensive) and in some ways they are nowhere near as customizable (can't remove/add upgrades, change engines, etc.). All of this can be off-putting to players as a general thing.

What all of this means is that by and large, one is going to run into far larger numbers of people in small units or units that are not into CW, and if the majority of a population is Inner Sphere, you're going to see more Inner Sphere pilots.

The primary reason why I say this is that up until Tuesday, my unit was with Clan Wolf and we had no problems in taking or holding planets in between cease-fires, even those that had a large population of people fighting over it. However for the event, we had 3 12-man groups PLUS coordination with other Clan Wolf units working on a planet and we were not able to make any progress at all. For every match that we won, a group of IS players (either ghost dropping or playing against PUGs) would neutralize our efforts; basically, there just wasn't enough of us to make any appreciable difference.

Now, I imagine that since the CW event is over, things are going to go back to about where they were before...but I have a feeling that more of the same can be expected with future events as well as when the Steam release finally hits.

To be clear, I do agree that communication (or the lack thereof) is a major factor and a problem, but at the same time there's just not a whole lot you can do when you're so severely outnumbered.

[Moebius Pi]

My personal experience has been this:

I spent nearly all my prior time in CW as a pug exclusively taking Wolf contracts, and attempting to drop with them. I didn't see mention of hubs, and being the odd man out in organized drops usually meant no real communication my way regardless. I still had fun, but their really, REALLY was no open "take them under your wing" sort of vibe or grouping approach I ran into. I never got friend invites. I never got group invites, so it was really hit and miss on what the drop would be. This was my entire experience with that even while sticking with it to grind to level 6.

Really, approaching a unit felt more like having to jump through hoops and tests, and bluntly put, I'm a grown adult; I don't have time to coddle some arm-chair soldier's online delusions with that crap and waste my time when I am just trying to get into a semi-organized group, drop and play without it being disorganized anarchy. You're not going to get many PUGs that want to stick with it, let alone listen to some jackass barking orders with that kind of atmosphere, they just want to grind some loyalty points because the incentives to do otherwise just aren't there. Go figure. I got bored of it and went to IS, though mostly in part to get some more play out of my IS mechs.

Then there's IS, where I recently started taking exclusive FRR contracts and dropping with them. Friend invites. Group invites. Much more approachable and communicative units that DID talk, did give directions and did want people joining their units. Coordinated attacks even with sub-optimal mech loadouts consistently won far more due to this. Wanting to continue droppping with the people continued as well, again, because of a more welcoming atmsophere and options.

This is in part why FRR in particular started making a heavy comeback. It's easy to get a bunch of PUGs on board when people are willing to give them the chance. It's much easier to get them to consistently listen when people ARE invested in getting everyone ahead and having fun, and they will steadily improve the more drops their are like that. Suddenly "well, another random group vs organized clan, GG" goes out the window, and it stops being a consistent trouncing. You start getting pugs with some folks who can organize getting more even trades if not outright wins due to the communication and atmosphere.

Numbers mean nothing to watching the trends in single matches; it's not ghost drops ( I didn't have -1- single ghost drop the entire weekend). It's the individual matches that started turning around because people had more reason to fight out what was once pointless battles in CW with better reward incentives, and people started organizing and chatting to make sure they could get that free mech. It worked.

I'll tell you this; if you're honestly trying to say IS mech quirks etc. is the reason for those overturn, you really, REALLY are making a bad excuse their. Double TBR and SCR drops. ECM all over with hellbringers everywhere. Far better ranged poke. Consistently useful LRMs. They may fall short in brawling vs some IS mechs, but I don't think you've even seen where hitboxes are on many clan mechs. Look up the SCR as an example; it's a fricking spider and guesswork on where you're hitting in the midst of a heated game.

You'd get folks dropping with other mechs because they didn't have the extra options, but then, have you seen a suboptimal IS drop in comparison? We won't even go into IS mechs running XLs who get blasted at range in under 2 seconds running around from clan gauss/er lasers. Or the Streakers that need to be prioritized off the bat that just outright mow through IS med/lights. Or the TBR's in general. Or the Gauss Dires. Or the Med laser boating ecm toting Hellbringer toughies swarming every single match.

No amount of advantages mech wise Clan wise though will just win vs organized groups, pug or otherwise in communication unless they do the same. Go figure, the clan pugs weren't. That's really the issue there. Not quirks. Not numbers. Disorganized clan pugs and the overall clan atmosphere not being very condusive to getting those extra numbers on board and -wanting- to get organized is the issue. When you aren't getting those invites and told where to go in hubs (and seriously, spying, really, -that- is a big problem? No. BS. Lame fingerpoint. You get trolls on both sides) to communicate. Guess what. Even with the VOIP, you get rolled.

People work with what they have. When they're not being sh*t upon because they didn't have the c bills or MC to get an optimal loadout, they do even better because people often try to make sure the guy running a paper tiger IS mech can contribute. That's the reason why matches started being wins rather than losses vs Clans. An organized clan unit still makes mincemeat. I ran into it, I was surprised I wasn't running into more CWL etc, but then, pug vs pug was very common, or mixed groups, who just all went to an FRR room to know what to do. A disorganized Clan drop can only use their mechs as a crutch so much before it snaps.

Congrats. Clan mechs are still OP. TBR, SCR and HBR are still ridiculously good. Their are still a bunch of really damn good Clan weapons and it's easy to load them up. And even the bad Clan mechs can be worked with, assuming their team gives them a good role or niche to work with instead of leaving them to fend for themselves.

Want to change that? Make a welcoming atmosphere with more general hubs. Get the pugs involved and stop acting like they are a detriment. Maybe then the pugs invested in CW will start putting up the fight in the Clans like they have been with the IS. Until then... expect to get rolled more. Or just wait until the next Clan Mech wave in June and watch the mass migration happen anyhow

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

Smoke Jaguar will put your uninformed nonsense to rest.
Davion aggreed to a non-aggression pact with Kurita.
All the Mercs propping up Davion took Kurita contracts for the CW Event.
Kurita, Mercs, and FRR zerged the clans with overwhelming numbers and time zones.
Kurita and Their mercs did the heavy lifting, FRR was there to watch and wave.

Moebius Pi, on 01 April 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

[color=#959595]This is in part why FRR in particular started making a heavy comeback.[/color]

[anonymous161]

IS has the advantage of speed that is also a major help, I've never seen a light rush on the clan side...they would just point and laugh and one or two them down.

Wave 3 I feel will even the field more give us more options and hopefully speedier mechs on all fronts. The cheetah should be a savior for clan lights, shadowcat offers more variety of combat roll than storm though maybe because I've only used it for laser vomit to great success, the clan assaults are **** they really suck unless you are in a corridor facing less experienced players then yeah a dire can do some great damage but on the more open maps it's rather pitiful.

Basically IS has more variety of useful mechs better dakka which is pretty huge in this game, they have had more quirks and balances than clans, while the only thing to really happen to clan is nerf the **** outta it to being only good if you get the first couple shots and able to corner them.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Darth Bane001, on 01 April 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

the clan assaults are **** they really suck unless you are in a corridor facing less experienced players then yeah a dire can do some great damage but on the more open maps it's rather pitiful.

Still, one or two direwolfs leading a push is a force to be reckoned with. The problem is the speed and how to bring them to bear, but if they are in the right spot they sure wrecking havoc.

i remember a game where i was in a group of 6 + another 6 man premade on sulfurous. We abandoned both team speaks and used the ingame voip only. Upon discussing a strategy i saw that we where a kitfox, four assaults and 7 heavies.
"might as well push out, won't get any heavier then this".
Only moving with 50 kph at max, oh boy did we wrack the floor. The time we reached the spawn we stomped over 3 complete waves.

Also, a direwolf leading a counter.push can turn arround a lost game literally in the last minute. Seth probably knows what i'm talking about.

Edited by LOADED, 01 April 2015 - 04:03 PM.