46 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

So now that the Victor JJ animation is being fixed, which is cool, but also nerfs the Victor. As a Mech that arguably needed a little bit of help before, does anyone else think it needs a little bit more help now? The JJ animation that made people miss helped its tankiness and was one of the things that made it good and XL friendly.

What does everyone else think?

[Rhaythe]

I'm not eager for a return of the assault poptart meta, so I'm happy to turn a blind eye the Victor's way. But that's me. I don't doubt that the JJ nerfs have hurt it badly, so I can understand why its pilots aren't happy about it. Something should probably be done, but that wraps me back around to my first sentence.

[XX Sulla XX]

Yes the Victor now needs even more help. That of course does not mean the return of the jump sniping meta. It needs a quirk for left and right torso. It also needs better weapons quirks. It has very limited hard points so at the moment it is hard to get a decent build that works with the current mid range meta game.

Some things they could quirk would be large energy/pulse lasers, large lasers, U/AC5s/ballistics. And of course the left and right torso as mentioned.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 01 April 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[Mechteric]

Relying on a bugged system makes no sense anyway. They can make jump jets good and fun without them making poptarting proliferate again. If jets boosted you incredibly fast you wouldn't have a chance to make a well aimed shot until you had been exposed for long enough for an enemy to shoot you first, potentially throwing off aim. Then the rest of the balance would be in slower jet recharge and maybe more jet heat. It worked great for MWLL!

[Rhaythe]

CapperDeluxe, on 01 April 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

It worked great for MWLL!

Slightly apples and oranges, in that MWLL did not have mechlab customization. The min-max meta never really took off (not saying it wasn't there, but no where near as prevalent insofar as a poptart meta). I agree with you that Jump Jets need a lot of work to make them fun, but I can't agree that people won't start slapping PPCs and AC5s/10s on anything that flies all over again.

It has happened before; it will happen again.

[Mcgral18]

They could always try changing the gravity and see how that affects things.

~4x G at the moment, according to some people. People who Math'ed and used Cryengine commands.


If they didn't instantly fall when thrust stopped, nor if they had minute control on jump height, most issues would be resolved by having a wonderful opportunity to deal an alpha mid air...while facetanking laservomit as you fall.


Sounds like a nice risk VS reward to me, rather than no risk at all.

[cSand]

Uh, taking away a crutch-glitch is not a nerf

Doesn't the Victor have built in nerfs? They could just take those away

[FupDup]

I haven't seen Victors abuse the JJ thing anyways, I've only seen some Mad Cats and maybe a few Firestarters do it.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I haven't seen Victors.

Fixed that for you.



@OP: We won't see anything for Victors for a while.


The Devs clearly do not understand the factors that made Victors dominant


The convergence of factors that made it a great mech are things that also mitigated it's negatives.

It's taken all of those collected nerfs, to all of the former attributes, to demonstrate things that the Victor had that were actually unappealing aspects.


80 ton armor.
Reliance on XL for high firepower & speed (was OK when the game was STD vs. XL, CXL changed that)
Overall large & tall model, with a wide torso.
Low mounted hardpoints
Low ability to actually boat any one weapon type



A few variants still have some positive attributes, like being able to mount an AC 20 in an Arm, but I don't see this mech making a comeback due to the slow speed that PGI makes balance changes.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 April 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

cSand, on 01 April 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

Uh, taking away a crutch-glitch is not a nerf

Doesn't the Victor have built in nerfs? They could just take those away

Where have you been dude? They took those away a long time ago. Its not really a crutch, but JJs were one of the things that made the Victor good/agile, and the hopping increased its tanking ability. Now that the hopping won't work anymore, the Victor's tanking ability is lower then it was (which was actually already low with the state of the game now).

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I haven't seen Victors abuse the JJ thing anyways, I've only seen some Mad Cats and maybe a few Firestarters do it.

That is because pilots who "meta game" don't drive Victors any more because they are so far from competitive. They all drive Timber Wolves.

[El Bandito]

Since Victor lacks hardpoints for an Assault mech, the logical solution is to further buff energy and ballistic quirks. Also enlarge its missile launcher sizes.

[Mcgral18]

I still want this thing added:

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 01 April 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Since Victor lacks hardpoints for an Assault mech, the logical solution is to further buff energy and ballistic quirks. Also enlarge its missile launcher sizes.

I think I'd try bumping up its mobility/agility a tad, as that was one of the Victor's trademarks way back in the stone age of 3025 (abnormally maneuverable assault mech).

They could probably stand to twist a nudge faster, turn a bit faster, and twist a bit further (exact numbers IDK).


In terms of hardpoints, 7 is actually a fairly common number for assaults...it's just that certain outliers *cough cough* get to have 10+...

Edited by FupDup, 01 April 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[oldradagast]

The glitchy jump-jet animation that allows mechs to ignore damage needs to be fixed. This isn't a nerf to the Victor, but a bug-fix. Once done - for ALL the mechs involved - they can restore jump-jets to be useful instead of cheesy tools to break the game.

So tired of watching Timbers do odd hops while feathering the jump-jets and ignoring damage...

[Alistair Winter]

I don't think poptart meta is going to be as big a problem as before, due to PPC projectile speed (making it harder for poptarters to hit) and unholy laservomit quirks (making it easier to hit poptarts). We discussed this in another thread, but TTK is also low enough that the poptarts are at a disadvantage in a brawl right now.

Another issue is that the difference between 1 and 6 jump jets is bigger than before (I think this happened post-poptart, though I could be wrong), and it could be even bigger than it is today. In other words, poptarters would need to make a big sacrifice to poptart.

Really though, I want to see some minimum burn time for the jump jets, so you can't fire them for 0.1 or 0.5 seconds repeatedly as you hill hump. I'd like a big "WOOSH" and then you basically had the choice of being airborne for 3, 4, 5 or 6 seconds, depending on your number of jump jets.

Not the current "WH-... WH-... WHOO.... W-... WHOOSH!"

cSand'

Uh, taking away a crutch-glitch is not a nerf
Doesn't the Victor have built in nerfs? They could just take those away

I kind of disagree. It's technically not a nerf, but you have to treat it as a nerf.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

In terms of hardpoints, 7 is actually a fairly common number for assaults...it's just that certain outliers *cough cough* get to have 10+...

7 isn't the problem.

7 split between 3 different systems forces you to either run a brawl build with SRMs and weak energy solution, or you only use 2 types of weapon systems and go for big weapons.


Not coincidentally, the primary Victor builds followed those patterns exactly.

AC 20, SRMs, MLAS

2x PPCs, 2x AC 5s



The BNC-3E *only* has 8 hardpoints, and it's one of the best IS Assaults.

[XX Sulla XX]

They could add this Victor also. Although it would be nice to spread the energy hard points around. It has ten energy and one missle hard point.

• Victor Li The custom Victor used by Tai-sho Li Dok To in the Fourth Succession War, this variant removed all the standard weapons and replaced them with a single LRM-15 mounted in the left torso and ten Medium Lasers carried in the 'Mech's right arm. Armor and movement profiles remained unchanged, but it carried a total of nineteen heat sinks. BV (2.0) = 1,625^[18]

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 01 April 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

The glitchy jump-jet animation that allows mechs to ignore damage needs to be fixed. This isn't a nerf to the Victor, but a bug-fix. Once done - for ALL the mechs involved - they can restore jump-jets to be useful instead of cheesy tools to break the game.

So tired of watching Timbers do odd hops while feathering the jump-jets and ignoring damage...

I understand what it is, but it IS a nerf to the Victor, in that the Victor can no longer use the animation ( you can call it bug or glitch or whatever you want) to help spread/shed damage. The Victor is in fact worse off following this change/fix (you can't really dispute this) and its not like it was actually competitive before. I am not arguing that it should have such a hoppy animation, I am just saying that this change will make the Victor less viable.

Keep in mind, the Victor was given weak quirks due to JJ agaility (including the hopping animation) and its ability to poptart.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 April 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[Yokaiko]

cSand, on 01 April 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

Uh, taking away a crutch-glitch is not a nerf

Doesn't the Victor have built in nerfs? They could just take those away

The built in nerfs were gone with quirks, its still a terrible mech with the JJs are they stand now.

[WazOfOz]

PGI are fixing a known exploit, not nerfing the victor or any of the other mechs getting their JJ animation fixed. so the answer to your question Gas Guzzler is nope. not at this time at least.