86 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Cookiemonter669, on 05 April 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

Yes,with a gauss too. And youll have low heat SRM:s as backup.

With just the Guass? (The point the other person was trying to mention.) The Hunchback's quirks and hard point location helps it with using a Gauss rifle better than a Centurion (not saying a Cent can't use it mind). Same with the AC20, as a Hunchback's quirks lets it shoot it more often, and for better results, because of it's quirks for it. Mind, this is looking at only the one weapon on the chassis, and not the hundreds of different weapon combos one can make with each chassis. (Which I believe was the point the other person was trying to make.)


Each mech has their good and bad points. I'm not saying the Centurion is better or worse overall. However, I will point out that when I hear a new player asking for a mech chassis suggestion, I always suggest the Hunchback. I feel it is more friendly to use and can be easier to learn with. This gives the Hunchback a lot of points in it's favor. There is also a Hunchback for every flavor of weapon out there, and it tends to be focused enough with it's weapons to be able to make easy customizations with them. Their quirks also help, as well as relatively high weapon mounts, smaller in size, and large torso twist rates.

With that said, the Centurion also has it's own perks to consider. Though I consider the Hunchback "better" than the Centurion on average, that doesn't mean it's going to be that way for everyone and in every situation. There are always cases to be made in the Centurion's favor in a debate like this. It is a very good mech too. (In the right hands, any mech can be a great mech. Even the mechs commonly considered bad, like the old Dragon before quirks as one example.)

The two mechs are so close in ability and strengths that they are practically even. As I've pointed out already, I feel the Hunchback is better, but only if just. Each mech are really good chassis.

[mogs01gt]

finalexamweekFTW, on 04 April 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

2 things here, when comparing them as Ac/20 platforms, it comes down to the wang and the 4G. both of them have comparable firepower, however, the Wang is NOT as well suited to brawling, because it usually an XL engine to maintain maneuverability. The 4g like MOST HBKs have an ENTIRE shield side instead of a just an arm. this, combined with the monstrous torso twist range on the HBks make them more suited for brawling and circle stafings.

You dont run a wang with an XL, you run it with a STD. The AH has the XL and will out DPS the 4g any day of the week. Did you just say the best brawling medium in the game isnt well suited for brawling.....Seriously? You do not have a shield side in the 4g, the Ac20 hunch can be hit from all sides not matter which way the 4g is facing. The 4g only has 6% more twist than the Wang.

Quote

Secondly, HBKs have more variety in the variant loadouts. Cents have the zombie, the AC/20 builds, and laser mode. The HBK has guass, Ac/20, AC/10, lasers, lrms, srms. the HBK also has more effective quirks that allow for much higher DPS with a guass or AC/20.

variety is irrelevant when the other variants are sub-par. Only the 4g and 4j are worth talking about compared to three viable models of the CN9(wang, ah and a)

Quote

Bottom line is, HBKs in most cases are the most effective 50t medium BRAWLERS and lrm boats. cents are interesting, but more suited to the role of a flanker or skirmishers. the roles of these two mechs are not suited to being the focus of a fight, this is just the way of the medium though. they play differently and it is not fair to compare them straight up.

The bottom line is the hunchies were are and will always be a poorly performing mech unless they are over quirked like they currently are. The only thing it has going for it is the 4j and that is using POS LRMs.

Edited by mogs01gt, 06 April 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Tesunie]

mogs01gt, on 06 April 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

The only thing it has going for it is the 4j and that is using POS LRMs.

The 4P comes to mind as a good mech. Even before quirks. I've been doing very well in my 4SP and 4J before quirks as well (using LRMs). I'm not always so good with the ACs, so my skill with them is questionable at times. (I'm getting better with my ACs though.)

Each mech are very valid and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. The Hunchback (and you can even look back through this thread if you want) is considered the "better" mech as an average. However, I think most people would agree "if just barely so" would be accurate as well. The two mechs are relatively on par with the other, and their effectiveness will probably depend upon the pilot more than the mech itself. (I personally found myself preforming rather poorly in my Centurions, but I did better in my Hunchbacks, before and after quirks.)

[Gremlich Johns]

HBK

[WANTED]

First mech I did well in was the Hunchback 4G when this game came out. Now I am all about the Yen Lo Cent. I like the AC 20 in my arm mount rather than torso. As others said I kinda find the Hunchie more in your face brawler and others usually play him that way. The Cent is more like "SURPRISE SUCKA!" and then run off.

Oh and yes I run my Wang with an XL. More speed for me works out better than the zombie ST engine and lower speed. I even put a Beagle in mine for stopping those ECM lights who get up close.

Edited by WANTED, 06 April 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[finalexamweekFTW]

Sirs, the Hunchback is not a "poorly performing mech". I have numerous events of 750+ DMG, several Ace of Spades matches, and even several 1000 dmg games with SINGLE HEAT SINKS EVEN!!

My point was not that the Cent is bad, its not, it is one of the stronger mediums; I just think that the HBK is a superior chassis. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. The point is, PLAY WHAT YOU ARE BEST IN. it will vary on a player by player basis. there is no point to this argument, I suck a** in a cent, and rock in a HBK, that situation may be reversed for others. I don't care if you like the cent, i like it too, just not as much as the HBK. I will have no further posts here as my point is made.

[P.S. never took the time to learn how to post images on MWO, therefore am unable to provide screenshots at this time.]

[Tesunie]

finalexamweekFTW, on 08 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

[P.S. never took the time to learn how to post images on MWO, therefore am unable to provide screenshots at this time.]

You need to get a web host for your images first (such as Tumbler or Photobucket. I use Photobucket myself and it's preformed well). Once you have your image hosted on a site, you take the IP address (they normally will have a "direct link" address you can copy). Then, press the "Image" button in the header of your bar where you make posts. Paste the direct IP address link into the pop-up window. It should appear inside your post if you've done it correctly.

(If you try this and still don't get it, PM or contact me somehow and I'll try to help you if you wish.)

[YueFei]

HBK has a weapon mounting location advantage that, in some circumstances, allow it to hit an enemy for free, whereas a Centurion in the same situation would be forced to trade blows to land its own. Gotta understand perspectives here, imagine you crest a hill just enough to see the top of a Direwolf, but you can't see his hands. If you can't see his hands, his hands don't have a line-of-sight to your head, and so there's also no line-of-sight to your shoulder. In fact if you have the chance to maneuver so you can only see the hood, but not the cockpit, the Direwolf pilot can't even see you because of his cockpit mounting location being further down. You can hit him, he can't hit you. But even if he can see you, his arms are slung lower than his cockpit, so you can move into spots where he can see you but his hands can't touch you.

Put a Centurion in that scenario, and he must move forward a bit more to clear his weapons to fire over cover, and that will probably be enough to expose him to the Direwolf's arsenal.

On the other hand, a Centurion has a hitbox advantage with big shield arm which leaves a large debris hitbox that can continue to soak hits even after it's destroyed. Gives it an advantage for when you just absolutely need to get involved even if it means tanking some return fire. Fantastic for plunging into a fight (or holding against a push) and shrugging off waaaaay more damage than a Medium mech should be capable of. Put a Hunchback into that scenario and even if he's shielding well his left shoulder gets popped fairly quickly, and the right shoulder is more difficult to protect because it protrudes.

Hunchback is more about jockeying for that sweet spot, surprise and finesse. The Centurion is more like, well, a Roman Legionnaire.... endure whatever the enemy chucks at you and keep coming at them relentlessly.

Edited by YueFei, 08 April 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[CygnusX7]

For me the Cents are survival mechs so I prefer them over HB's.

[Tesunie]

YueFei, on 08 April 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

On the other hand, a Centurion has a hitbox advantage with big shield arm which leaves a large debris hitbox that can continue to soak hits even after it's destroyed.

Completely agree with your other points. I've done the "you can't hit me, but I can see and hit you" trick many times, particularly against Atlases as well.

As far as the Centurion Hit Box, I'd like to point out that your information is what he old Centurion hit boxes use to do. They are no longer that large on the shoulder (destroyed arm hit box) and no longer have those large side torsos. That shield arm is still a good advantage, as it is a large area that can protect you, at least till it is destroyed.

[Ezazel]

They are both great mechs. I have mastered all non hero HBKs and most non hero Cents (not AL because it didn't work for me for some reason). It comes down to preference and play style. They both have their own method of survival. HBK hill humps better, Centurion has better shield arm.

Try both and see which you like better but my opinion is that in the end you should get both.

[Raso]

I'm still getting re-accustomed to the game from a bit of a break and familiar with the quirks. Does the AL's large laser bonuses count for much? I remember soloing an Atlas in my AL, back in the day, by simply out maneuvering him. Much has changed these days. Can the AL be useful in what seems to be a mid-range, laser spewing meta?

[Tesunie]

Raso, on 12 April 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I'm still getting re-accustomed to the game from a bit of a break and familiar with the quirks. Does the AL's large laser bonuses count for much? I remember soloing an Atlas in my AL, back in the day, by simply out maneuvering him. Much has changed these days. Can the AL be useful in what seems to be a mid-range, laser spewing meta?

Lasers and ACs ARE the current meta, with some SRMs tossed in for good measure. LLs (Er and Pulse too) are all very popular at the moment. (Pulse lasers had their heat reduced to the same heat values of their normal counterparts. At least Med pulses I should say. Not sure about LPLs.)

Looking at the quirks specifically:
Energy weapon cooldown 10%. LL Cooldown 10%. If you place a LL, it will shoot 20% more often than typical.
Energy Weapon Heat generation 10%. LL Heat gen 10%. This means LLs will produce a total of 20% less heat per shot, which means they will be running cooler.
Energy Beam Duration 10%. LL beam duration 10%. This means your beam durations with a LL will be 20% shorter than before.

This means, any and all LLs you place (but not Pulse or ER large lasers) will shoot 20% faster, run 20% cooler, and it's beam duration is 20% shorter. If you wish to run your Cent AL by meta and quirks (I tend to do my own thing honestly), pack on the LLs. 3-4 would probably be deadly. Then you have an Missile cooldown of 12.5%, so even placing some SRMs for some cooler weapons for a brawl isn't too bad.

This is my AL. It was designed before quirks and was my best Centurion at the time. Still seems to work well.

A more Meta AL would probably look like this. (I have not personally tested this build. But my Zeus seems to like something like it, without as many quirks for LLs.

[Raso]

I know Cent's are all about that Zombie, but I like arm mounted lasers far too much to justify that 3rd LL. I'd likely run it like this or this with an STD.

It sounds like my favorite Cent is still useful. I'll have to dust her off.

[Tremendous Upside]

Raso, on 12 April 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

I know Cent's are all about that Zombie, but I like arm mounted lasers far too much to justify that 3rd LL. I'd likely run it like this or this with an STD.

It sounds like my favorite Cent is still useful. I'll have to dust her off.

This would work fine for you. You won't need more than 12 DHS thanks to the AL's quirks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90fdb587481d274

[Tesunie]

Raso, on 12 April 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

I know Cent's are all about that Zombie, but I like arm mounted lasers far too much to justify that 3rd LL. I'd likely run it like this or this with an STD.

It sounds like my favorite Cent is still useful. I'll have to dust her off.

Each seem like viable builds to me. I'm not much of a meta player, nor do I consider myself anything more than average skill levels. I'd say, try it out and adjust as needed. (Personally, I think the one without Artemis is the better option. SRM4s tend to have lower spread, so Artemis isn't as needed. Also, which weapon do you consider more primary? SRMs or LLs? If you can, might also be worth it placing twin SL, med lasers or something in the CT. If you are going to have a STD engine, might as well try to take full advantage of it, right?)

As a tip, if you are aware of it, you can press left control to lock your torso in place and let your arm reticule move separately. In a Cent, though I found I didn't think of doing so, you can use control to lock your torso, and then move your arm independently. Then twist your left sheild arm into the way, lock torso, and move that arm reticule to shoot from under(ish) that left shield arm. Fire while blocking.

[Raso]

Banky, on 12 April 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

This would work fine for you. You won't need more than 12 DHS thanks to the AL's quirks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90fdb587481d274

With the the 20% bonus to cooling and 20% bonus to fire rate and beam duration when firing at every possible opportunity does that translate to more heat per second over all or about the same? Obviously doing a quick sneak and peak shoot I'd have lees heat per shot but what about in a steady stream of fire?

[Tremendous Upside]

Raso, on 13 April 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

With the the 20% bonus to cooling and 20% bonus to fire rate and beam duration when firing at every possible opportunity does that translate to more heat per second over all or about the same? Obviously doing a quick sneak and peak shoot I'd have lees heat per shot but what about in a steady stream of fire?

I just took mine out to Tourmaline for some metrics. I got off 14 straight shots with the dual LLs (button held down the whole time) before tipping the heat scale. On the same map, with a no-quirks 14DHS mech I overheated on the 12th shot, 15DHS on the 18th. So you're essentially getting your LL durations dropped to ~an IS small laser's and getting an extra 2+ DHS tonnage/crit-slot free. And that's not even considering the other quirks or the heat generation savings on the MLs...

[Triordinant]

Apnu, on 02 April 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

Let's debate the HBK vs the CN9, which is the better mech and why!

No variants barred, no builds barred!
Throw down!

The Centurion was my first 'mech. The Hunchback was my second. After playing both since Closed Beta, I have to say the Hunchback has the edge.

[Boulangerie]

I enjoy both chassis as well. I think 4J was one of my first mechs, sold off when I collected my ravens. My first hero was the YLW, and is still one of my best mechs. My overall favorite had always been the CN9-AL for some reason, and I ran it with an ER PPC, 2ML, and some LRMs i think.

I recently decided to "go meta" and try a little minmaxing of my own .

New CN9-AL has 3 LL only, big engine and heat sinks. I did 700 damage for the first time (i've played awhile but never got really good at this game). I thought it would be a joke build just to see how good Lasers are right now, and it ended up packing serious firepower and speed.
1 LL in CT
2LL in RA
that's all you can fit. Doesn't run real hot either.