263 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

If you are relying on league rules or mods to balance the game, then my argument is already made for me.

More like you are trying to setup an unfair comparison between a game that forces one way to play the game with a game that had multiple options available. The fair comparison would be between a similar environment, not NH/UA gameplay.

[Yokaiko]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

More like you are trying to setup an unfair comparison between a game that forces one way to play the game with a game that had multiple options available. The fair comparison would be between a similar environment, not NH/UA gameplay.

Sounds a lot like laser vommit.....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Sounds a lot like laser vommit.....

The Mektek mods were laser vomit heavy, just with Larges instead of medium/large mixes. That isn't the mod I initially referred to, as he hadn't played the one I referred to, he only brought up the mektek version.

[Y E O N N E]

I would like:

PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 8 heat
  
• 1200 m/s
  
• 0.3s firing delay
  
• 3.5s cool-down
  
• 90 m minimum range

ER PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 10 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.25s firing delay
  
• 4s cool-down

C-ER PPC

• 15 damage
  
• 15 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.2s firing delay
  
• 4.5s cool-down

Try it, tweak as necessary, but I think I'd enjoy it.

[Yokaiko]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

I would like:

PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 8 heat
  
• 1200 m/s
  
• 0.3s firing delay
  
• 3.5s cool-down
  
• 90 m minimum range

ER PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 10 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.25s firing delay
  
• 4s cool-down

C-ER PPC

• 15 damage
  
• 15 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.2s firing delay
  
• 4.5s cool-down

Try it, tweak as necessary, but I think I'd enjoy it.

You get MORE laser vommit.

[Elizander]

PPC Velocity is just too slow compared to other weapons. My chance to miss with PPCs are higher especially at long range.

Gauss = Faster velocity, no heat.
AC5/UAC5 = Faster velocity, low heat, low CD
Lasers = Some damage or full damage (better than PPC's full damage or no damage)

The ceiling on PPC skill is very low because people can just walk away from your projectile and it's too hot to use in a brawl. Players are better off using other weapons than a PPC even if it's a fun iconic weapon.

PPCs already run very hot for the most part so I think increasing the projectile speed won't hurt and adjust other mech quirks accordingly (lower quirk velocity/higher PPC base velocity).

I am better off making space for 1 gauss rifle than 2 PPCs.

Edited by Elizander, 02 April 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

More like you are trying to setup an unfair comparison between a game that forces one way to play the game with a game that had multiple options available. The fair comparison would be between a similar environment, not NH/UA gameplay.

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

The Mektek mods were laser vomit heavy, just with Larges instead of medium/large mixes. That isn't the mod I initially referred to, as he hadn't played the one I referred to, he only brought up the mektek version.

The game was not at all balanced. It took people doing all kinds of crap to the game to get it even remotely close to balanced.

Even then, the reality of it all was the simple fact that those were not "options" like a game would have game modes. You had to download unsanctioned files to install into the game to fundamentally change the code to make the game anything remotely in the same zip code as a "balanced" game.

As for your assertion that some MW4 mod was actually balanced, judging by your concept of balanced, I doubt it was any closer than the last official patched version of MW4, and probably just shifted the goal posts around enough to suit your preferred play style.

Why not ask a community like reddit if they think any of the mods for MW4 was balanced...hell even ask it here...

[Y E O N N E]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

You get MORE laser vommit.

Can't get any more laser vomit than we already have.

That aside, that PPC will out-range and out-DPS a Large Laser for the heat of an ER Large. It can sync up with an AC/5 rather nicely, too; all you have to do is pull your AC/5 trigger when the PPCs fire. It is not hard, not even slightly, for anybody with the hand-eye coordination to be half-way decent at this game.

Still, I did say it might need a few tweaks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Why not ask a community like reddit if they think any of the mods for MW4 was balanced...hell even ask it here...

First, you used a strawmen to misconstrue the argument at first to make it easier for you to defeat.
Here was my original statement that started it all:

Quote

regardless I've played in a game/mod where the IS PPC/ERPPC were balanced decently so saying this in bold/italics and quoting PGI doesn't exactly prove your point nor does it make any sense.

The specifics being that the IS-PPC was balanced sufficiently against the IS-ERPPC and that both were useful for the IS. I never stated that MW4:HC was perfectly balanced because it wasn't perfect, Clan UACs were overpowered near the end of its lifetime and there were some other issues (like tech parity) but for the most part things were better than here, that I will say.

Second, you are using a strawmen by bringing all of MW4 or any other mod into the discussion when I never mentioned them, YOU brought them up because they weren't balanced and you havn't ever played the mod I referred to. You make the leap that it can't be that different without having played it. Not to mention you failed to mention the mod I specifically referred to in your other topic.

Third, your topic is a loaded question. Next time you want a serious question, why don't you ask it with neutral language.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[Jaguar Prime]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

First, you used a strawmen to misconstrue the argument at first to make it easier for you to defeat.
Here was my original statement that started it all:



The specifics being that the IS-PPC was balanced sufficiently against the IS-ERPPC and that both were useful for the IS. I never stated that MW4:HC was perfectly balanced because it wasn't perfect, Clan UACs were overpowered near the end of its lifetime and there were some other issues (like tech parity) but for the most part things were better than here, that I will say.

Second, you are using a strawmen by bringing all of MW4 or any other mod into the discussion when I never mentioned them, YOU brought them up because they weren't balanced and you havn't ever played the mod I referred to. You make the leap that it can't be that different without having played it. Not to mention you failed to mention the mod I specifically referred to in your other topic.

Third, your topic is a loaded question. Next time you want a serious question, why don't you ask it with neutral language.

MW4-HC wasn't balanced by a long shot but it was more balanced than MWO in my opinion.


Speed up the C-ERPPC and the IS-ERPPC but increase the recycle time. (being able to consistently hit targets at 800m+ will make them useful again) Drop the heat slightly on the PPC.

Edited by Jaguar Prime, 02 April 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[Elizander]

Not really concerned about a heavily modded version of MW4 but it's pretty obvious that when made to choose between PPCs and other weapons, other weapons win out.

I don't mind if they increase the cycle time or give it a charge delay as long as they make it a little more viable so I don't feel like I'm gimping myself and my team by using them over lasers or something else. Base velocity is so low that it's now just a 'quirk weapon' which makes it super niche.

When is it a good time to use a PPC? Up close? PPCs have min range. ER PPCs are too hot. Long range? Projectile speed too slow. 3 ERLL do better than 2 ER PPCs in all aspects. 3LL probably do better than 2 PPCs. Mid-range? For me there really isn't a mid range. You're either sniping or brawling and if you're in the middle you're trying to get into position to do either of the first two. If you're also in mid range opposing brawlers and snipers can get into their preferred range easier against you.

Edited by Elizander, 02 April 2015 - 10:32 PM.

[Reitrix]

Poptarts were only "OP" back in the day because you could really only get 30 ~ 40 damage in a single alpha using either an AC20+2xPPC or 2xAC5+2xPPC.

Poptart or not, i cannot think of a build back then that afforded an alpha higher than 40.

Now we have Laser Vomit. My AWS-8Q traded PPCs for 2xLPL and 5x MPL.
30 damage that would often miss at its own optimal range (or simply not register that it hit) and cause you nearly overheat on that single shot, traded for a 52 point alpha for 1/3rd the total heat generated by the 3 PPCs 30 damage that was guaranteed to both hit the target AND deal damage.

But you might say "But the lasers have a duration! People can twist away from it!".
Nope, you cannot.
with a burn time of roughly half a second (500ms) when combining latency of the shooter with latency of the target and throwing HSR on top, 9 times out of 10, the whole burn is done BEFORE the target even gets the notification he got shot.

Heavily superquirked Lasers are now virtually instant.
the FS9-K can take 8 SPLs for 32 damage alphas in half second bursts without even having quirks. And generating bugger all Heat while its at it.

Restoring the velocity of the PPC would not bring back poptarting because Laser Vomiting is MUCH more effective.
Restoring the velocity of the PPC would not bring back Ballistic+PPC combo because Laser Vomit is MUCH more effective.

All that would change is giving us a 'Ballistic' option on Energy only 'Mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Reitrix, on 02 April 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

Poptarts were only "OP" back in the day because you could really only get 30 ~ 40 damage in a single alpha using either an AC20+2xPPC or 2xAC5+2xPPC.

Poptart or not, i cannot think of a build back then that afforded an alpha higher than 40.

Now we have Laser Vomit. My AWS-8Q traded PPCs for 2xLPL and 5x MPL.
30 damage that would often miss at its own optimal range (or simply not register that it hit) and cause you nearly overheat on that single shot, traded for a 52 point alpha for 1/3rd the total heat generated by the 3 PPCs 30 damage that was guaranteed to both hit the target AND deal damage.

But you might say "But the lasers have a duration! People can twist away from it!".
Nope, you cannot.
with a burn time of roughly half a second (500ms) when combining latency of the shooter with latency of the target and throwing HSR on top, 9 times out of 10, the whole burn is done BEFORE the target even gets the notification he got shot.

Heavily superquirked Lasers are now virtually instant.
the FS9-K can take 8 SPLs for 32 damage alphas in half second bursts without even having quirks. And generating bugger all Heat while its at it.

Restoring the velocity of the PPC would not bring back poptarting because Laser Vomiting is MUCH more effective.
Restoring the velocity of the PPC would not bring back Ballistic+PPC combo because Laser Vomit is MUCH more effective.

All that would change is giving us a 'Ballistic' option on Energy only 'Mechs.

That's what I've been saying!

[Averen]

Why are some people here talking about 'bringing back ppcs'? You can't seriously believe normal ppcs are bad?

I can assure you, the misery is still going very well with 2xPPC/AC20 and next to no quirks. A minimum of skill and twisting makes that mech one of the few things that efficiently kills direwolfes.

Edited by Averen, 02 April 2015 - 11:51 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

Why are some people here talking about 'bringing back ppcs'? You can't seriously believe normal ppcs are bad?

I can assure you, the misery is still going very well with 2xPPC/AC20 and next to no quirks. A minimum of skill and twisting makes that mech one of the few things that efficiently kills direwolfes.

You know what kills Dire Wolfs more efficiently? Other Dire Wolfs. 40 pt alpha from a Misery < 84-91 pt alpha from a Dire.

That Misery build is good, but a lot of that comes with having awesome hitboxes. Overall it is a little range limited which keeps it from being fully competitive. Standard PPCs are "just okay" right now, but laser vomit is better. ER PPCs are what really need the help.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2015 - 12:01 AM.

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 April 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

I would like:

PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 8 heat
  
• 1200 m/s
  
• 0.3s firing delay
  
• 3.5s cool-down
  
• 90 m minimum range

ER PPC

• 10 damage
  
• 10 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.25s firing delay
  
• 4s cool-down

C-ER PPC

• 15 damage
  
• 15 heat
  
• 1500 m/s
  
• 0.2s firing delay
  
• 4.5s cool-down

Try it, tweak as necessary, but I think I'd enjoy it.

Firing delay is an absolutely terrible idea on any weapon.

[Averen]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

You know what kills Dire Wolfs more efficiently? Other Dire Wolfs. 40 pt alpha from a Misery < 84-91 pt alpha from a Dire.

Dires are overpowered like nothing else, that's why they make a good comparision. Also: If you're actually hit by a 91pt alpha in a misery, then you are just bad. That's what cover is for.

Quote

That Misery build is good, but a lot of that comes with having awesome hitboxes. Overall it is a little range limited which keeps it from being fully competitive. Standard PPCs are "just okay" right now, but laser vomit is better. ER PPCs are what really need the help.

Yep: There is not a single good clan mechs for using ppcs. Interesting, isn't it?

Edited by Averen, 03 April 2015 - 12:13 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

I am disappointed in (ER)PPCs in MWO. They are an iconic weapon in the Battletech universe and concipated for long range engagements. It was one of the weapons of choice for range - not lasers. Their heat was the price for their damage and range.

In MWO, though, you see laser vomit because it is chancy at best to hit something with PPC on greater distances. One little twist in its movement and the PPC bolt will miss. Lasers do at least part of their damage and 1000m+

Some long range duels played like that:
Map: Canyon Network
I had a Raven with ERLL and faced a Panther. I peeked around the corner and fired doing damage to him, stepped back - bolt came in and hit cover. I moved far out because I knew he'd fire a PPC at once..bolt flew harmlessly past behind me while I did some damage on him before he was able to step back. At this point he had enough and ran off.

(ER)PPC bolts' velocity should be buffed across the board so that non-quirked mechs can use them at least decently and quirked mechs can use them well.

As for poptarting: just add a beefy reticle shake for the WHOLE jump and that's it.

[Reitrix]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

Why are some people here talking about 'bringing back ppcs'? You can't seriously believe normal ppcs are bad?

I can assure you, the misery is still going very well with 2xPPC/AC20 and next to no quirks. A minimum of skill and twisting makes that mech one of the few things that efficiently kills direwolfes.

So you can do 20~40 damage at 300~ meters and 20~ damage at 500 meters? Uhh, ok.

(One of) My Dire Wolves carries 2 Gauss Rifles (30 damage at 600m) 3 PPCs (30 damage at 800m) with MGs and an assortment of small lasers for close in work.
If i'm face to face with Miseries running your build, I need only fear 20 damage at a time. YOU need to fear 30 damage at a time. I also have a MUCH higher continuous damage output.
Neither of us can hide our CTs, so guess which one dies first?

Edited by Reitrix, 03 April 2015 - 01:55 AM.

[Averen]

Reitrix, on 03 April 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

So you can do 20~40 damage at 300~ meters and 20~ damage at 500 meters? Uhh, ok.

(One of) My Dire Wolves carries 2 Gauss Rifles (30 damage at 600m) 3 PPCs (30 damage at 800m) with MGs and an assortment of small lasers for close in work.
If i'm face to face with Miseries running your build, I need only fear 20 damage at a time. YOU need to fear 30 damage at a time. I also have a MUCH higher continuous damage output.
Neither of us can hide our CTs, so guess which one dies first?

You're really trying to make this a game of 'my mech is more broken than yours'? You win, dires are. Kinda pathetic tho.

Some people actually don't play only broken mechs and learn tactics. Ofc course i can hide my CT. For example behind buildings. Superior mobility and the need of only showing a fraction of a mech to do instant pinpoint damage is the advantage of a misery, and that's the IS best way to take care of dires (crabs can use similar strategies).
Of course a dire is still stronger, takes no effort and further ranging. I've seen people with controllers pull of 1k damage matches.

Edited by Averen, 03 April 2015 - 02:56 AM.